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Author Topic: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question  (Read 719 times)

gizzo

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2014, 10:57:42 PM »
Regarding the mention of Rotella oil.....I have heard great things about it. I understand it's a Shell Oil product. But when I look for it, I only find 15/50 Synthetic Rotella with a note on the bottle "for Diesel engines". Is that okay and just saying it's ALSO good for diesels or is that just for diesel use ???
Most of the crew on Another Forum will only recommend the dino (not synthetic) Rotella and go into a screaming rage if you put something else in your thumper. Sadly, in Australia the Rotella we have is a different thing entirely. But they claim the engine needs the full ZDDP package in rotella for the flat tappet's survival. I don't buy it that old tech engines rely on ZDDP, but that it's a manufacturing flaw on Suzuki's part that's being covered up by using a high zinc oil. Regardless, Rotella is a very popular choice for motorcyclists in the States and sounds like you could use with confidence. My DR250 (same engine design but smaller. Same flat tappets and stuff) has survived 60,000km just fine on Castrol bike oil. And my Pantah has 100,000km with no rebuilds on Penrite diesel oil (and the odd car oil change if that's whats hanging around).  I can't see it doing any harm to an Enfield engine if it's changed on time. I feel it's more important to change oil regularly than to rely on the additive package. I change my bike's oil every 2500 km and put the old stuff in my Beetle, where it magically "goes away".
simon from south Australia
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Suzuki Savage bobber
Pantah
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TheContinental

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2014, 11:07:53 PM »
Shell Rotella T 15-w40 NON synthetic.  It is sold at Walmart.  Don't be put off that is says for diesels.   :)  NON synthetic due to better wet clutch functioning. 
2014 RE Continental GT
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2004 Vespa GT200
1980 Honda CB400 Hawk

singhg5

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2014, 11:12:24 PM »
I'm in AZ, where it has been known to drop below 80F in the winter once in a while. But I wouldn't even consider using anything thinner than a 15w50 or 20w50 in a motorcycle, especially an air cooled single or single crankpin v-twin. These engines put a heavy load on the con rod and crank bearings, and you need an oil with all the load bearing ability you can get. I have owned singles, parallel twins, v-twins, triples, inline and horizontally opposed fours, and a horizontally opposed six (Goldwing) I've never use anything but 20w50 in any of them, and never had an engine failure. Harley recommends only 20w50 in their engines.

I don't see any problem with any type of oil, conventional, semi synthetic, full synthetic, car, or motorcycle specific, as long as that last number is a 50. I'm using a very expensive full synthetic motorcycle specific oil in the RE, but I intend to follow the oil change intervals in the manual. I have a couple of other bikes I use cheap conventional 20w50 oil in, but change it every 1000 miles.

10w40 or 15w40 might work ok in a four or six cylinder engine, they do not have anywhere near the stress on the bearings as a single, especially a long stroke single like the RE.

+1.

I would NOT use 10W-40 in my Royal Enfield long stroke single cylinder engine, if I want long life of engine. 

I did try it once in a cold season. The bike started easier but it was not good for engine parts. Switched quickly back to 15W-50 semi-synthetic. They are easily available at many motorcycle dealers or can be purchased on the internet. Availability these days is not an issue in US.

I am wondering why RE dealers do not carry the recommended oil. 
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

gashousegorilla

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2014, 11:29:02 PM »
I have read that before, and other similar information in trade magazines. I grew up with the old way, and will stick with it. Notice RE recommends 15w50 oil, Harley-Davidson recommends 20w50 oil. They do not recommend 0w10. My Vulcan 750, which is liquid cooled, says 10w40 right on the oil filler cap, but the manual also recommends up to 20w50 (which is what I use) for higher ambient temperatures. And as far a liquid cooled engines, ambient temperature is still very important when choosing an oil. A liquid cooled engine does NOT run at a constant temperature regardless of ambient temperature. Every liquid cooled bike I've ever had always ran much hotter in the summer than in the winter. In the winter, my VN750 runs in the low to normal range on the gauge, in the summer it runs way over toward the hot side. A "liquid cooled" engine is still air cooled, it just has an extra step. Most liquid cooling systems on bikes are marginal, especially in a place like Phoenix, AZ.

The numbers DO matter. A 20w50 oil is measurably thicker than a 10w40 oil at any given temperature. I use straight 60w oil in my drag race car. The engine was built for that oil, with the proper bearing clearances. In an engine, heavier oil does have more fluid friction, but it is a worthwhile trade off, because it protects your bearings.

This thing about wear at start up is largely a myth under most circumstances. If you ride the bike often, all the internal parts of the engine stay coated with oil, and the thicker then oil, the longer they will stay coated. Thick oil sticks to metal, while thin oil will run off faster. I have taken apart engines that sat for over a year, and found everything was still coated in oil. Thicker oil also provides better ring seal. In an older engine that is burning oil, switching to a thicker oil will lower oil consumption, and also provide more cushion for worn bearing clearances, making the engine last longer.

As for diesel oil, you can use it in any engine. It used to be much better than regular oil, because it had a much higher content of zinc and phosphorus, which are good for engines. This was also the case with motorcycle specific oil. But more recently, and again because of the EPA, these beneficial elements are being removed from all oils.

 Whoa There SCJ... I happen to agree with most of what you said. Particularly in regard to Bikes.  The conversation was going down the road to why CARS have been using lighter oil. I personally use Rotella 15-40 in MY bike....And believe in frequent oil changes. But maybe I'm just old fasioned that way  ;)    No clutch slippage BTW......
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

sparklow

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2014, 01:00:21 AM »
Shell Rotella 15W40 is JASO MA rated and safe for wet clutches. I have used it for years in my Yamaha XS650. I have not used it in my Bullet but I believe it would be just fine if I did.
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B5, like a Model T, comes in any color, as long as it's black.

Royal Stargazer

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2014, 05:48:42 PM »
When I bought my first Lincoln Mark VII, I went on a crusade for knowledge to try to find the best oil for my car so I could keep her running forever. I learned a few things, more what not to use than anything, but I digress.

The Royal Enfield was new to me. I knew I had to use motorcycle specific oil, and I wanted to use Royal Purple as it was the only oil I'd found that advertised cooler operating temperatures, and I have a predisposition towards synthetics. Seeing as how our engines are hard-working, air-cooled single cylinder thumpers, it seemed like the logical choice. It was then pointed out to me - on this very board - that our bikes are used in India with no real consequence, so they can take the heat just fine.

I also learned - on this very board - that 20w50 was the way to go for our long-stroke engines. The dealer used a 15w40 (if memory serves) synthetic blend, and when asked, advised that full synthetics were just fine. In the end, I settled on a full synthetic offering from Lucas in 20w50, which also made a point to advertise cooler operating temperatures.

I don't get manufacturers that change oil specifications seemingly on a whim. Ford at one point retroactively began recommending 5w20 in just about everything - including my '92 Mark VII - and that just seems dubious. I'll be using a synthetic 10w30 as long as someone still makes one.
2012 Royal Enfield C5, royal maroon
1992 Lincoln Mark VII, deep jewel green metallic clearcoat

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2014, 06:19:25 PM »
As someone pointed out the 5W oils are only to stretch a bit of extra petrol economy from the engines. I listened to the best discourse I have ever heard this fall from the president and chief engineer from Spectro oils.
My take away - synthetics are not worth the money as long as you change your oil at about 8,000 miles or less. He went into great detail separating marketing from actual testing and then real testing from advertised testing. Bear in mind this guys sells tons of synthetic oil. I am not recommending that  you switch because the factory says what it says based on what is needed to keep your warranty in effect. I no longer put it in my car.
As for manufacturers, changing recommendations please remember that a motorcycle engine on average is an unsophisticated device. Splitting hairs is what we are doing here. It is only worth doing if you want to have some fun on a forum. Don't lose any sleep over it.

gashousegorilla

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2014, 12:19:19 AM »
Shell Rotella 15W40 is JASO MA rated and safe for wet clutches. I have used it for years in my Yamaha XS650. I have not used it in my Bullet but I believe it would be just fine if I did.

  It's good stuff. And you can probably buy a gallon of it for what one quart of "high end synthetic motorcycle specific oils"  costs.  BUT, bare in mind. It is not recommended for Catalytic converters, and I believe o2 sensors. ...neither of which MY bike has.... Because of the possibility of ZDDP  accumulating on the sensor, from ring blow by.  An I guess IF there was a problem with the valve stem seals ?  But then again, IF I had and issue with excessive ring blow by and issues with my valve stem seals ?  I would have a bigger issue to think about then an o2 sensor...
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2014, 12:25:19 AM »
Also remember that a failed Catalytic converter is not covered under the emission warranty if you do not follow the specs. It probably the most expensive single part on the bike.

suitcasejefferson

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2014, 12:44:26 AM »
Also remember that a failed Catalytic converter is not covered under the emission warranty if you do not follow the specs. It probably the most expensive single part on the bike.

And one of the first things I'm getting rid of. If anything goes wrong with the FI, that's all the excuse I need to get rid of it as well. I like the UCE engine, but I'm the old school type who does not believe EFI or emissions crap belongs on motorcycle engines. I got the RE as a bike to tinker with as well as ride. I don't believe EPA oil and a too lean A/F mixture are good for my engine.

Again this is just my opinion, not meant to offend anyone.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
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Craig McClure

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2014, 12:53:34 AM »
I don't believe EPA oil and a too lean A/F mixture are good for my engine.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

Craig McClure

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2014, 12:55:57 AM »
I just heard on the news today, of another government agency scandal. Seems the EPA has also become a "rogue agency".
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

suitcasejefferson

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2014, 01:12:21 AM »
I just heard on the news today, of another government agency scandal. Seems the EPA has also become a "rogue agency".

I don't want to get political here, but as far as I am concerned, they have been since the very beginning. They have more power than the IRS. The ethanol gas thing is one of their boondoggles as well. It has probably done billions of dollars worth of damage to motor vehicles since it first appeared. They just do what they want and answer to no one.
I am a motorcyclist, NOT a biker.
2013 Royal Enfield B5
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750
2001 Yamaha XT225
2012 Yamaha Zuma 125
2009 Genuine Stella 2 stroke
1980 Puch Maxi ZA50 2 speed
1971 VeloSolex S3800

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2014, 03:01:05 AM »
I am making one comment of a political nature and then I am through. You can blame the farm lobby for ethanol. I like in a corn state and I saw what happened. You could call it a welfare bill coupled with the jobs bill. Welfare for the subsidies and corn price support (at the cost of pricing of grain for those less fortunate than we are in this country) and jobs to keep those working at the ethanol plants in jobs. That one I don't mind.

When you think farmer don't think or Earl and Gladys down the road, but Cargil, Archer Daniels etc. I have no problem with them making money, lots of money but not on my tax dollars. If you follow this stuff you will realize that the EPA  just admitted publically that E15 will harm motorcycle and other small engines.

mattsz

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Re: I'm REALLY sorry-Oil Question
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2014, 09:07:42 AM »
You can blame the farm lobby for ethanol....

He's right, men, on all the above counts...

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story!    ;)