HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

homebrew


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 23, 2014, 11:37:29 AM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Remove catch-can form an Electra  (Read 4853 times)

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2013, 05:37:32 PM »
It has sucking in because it is connected to the oil tank which is supposed to suck in due to the duckbill on the end of that hose.  You don't need a timing cover vent at all.  Having it open reduces the effectiveness of creating a vacuum on the oil tank line.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2013, 06:35:36 PM »
Leaving the timing cover vent open will leak oil out of it I think and also relieve pressure to the oil tank vent. So if you have a duckbill on it the duckbill won't work to give you proper crankcase pressure.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4138
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2013, 10:20:29 PM »
People thinking of using a PCV in their crankcase vent system need to realize it is not a simple one way valve like a duckbill.  It is designed to operate somewhere between fully open and fully closed, changing its position in response to the position of the throttle valve.

The PCV's job is to control the amount of vacuum from the inlet manifold that reaches the crankcase of the engine.

In a automotive engine, when an engine is idling and the maximum vacuum is in the inlet manifold, the valve closes to minimize the suction that is applied to the crankcase.
When the engine is at full throttle and the manifold vacuum is at its minimum, the PCV valve is fully open to allow what little vacuum exists in the manifold to provide as much suction to the crankcase as it possibly can.

If a PCV valve is installed with the crankcase side towards a motorcycle crankcase the valve will interpret the rising pressure as the piston descends as being a high vacuum in the inlet manifold and the valve will close.  This will pressurize the crankcase which is just the opposite of what we want to do.

If the PCV valve is installed with the outlet (manifold) side toward the crankcase, the valve will interpret the higher crankcase pressure as the piston descends as a low inlet manifold pressure so the valve will open allowing the higher crankcase pressure to escape.

These PCV valves are designed for systems where changes in the inlet manifold vacuum occur rather slowly and not very often.  They really are not designed to open and close 67 times a second which is the number of times the piston is traveling downward when the engine is running at 4000 rpm.

A rubber duckbill on the other hand can easily open and close 67 times a second (and faster).  (That's lower (slower) than open E on the lowest sounding guitar string).

As for having multiple PCV's installed in a system, remember, these things are not 100 percent efficient so each one added to a system will reduce the systems ability to let out the crankcase pressure.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 10:22:58 PM by Arizoni »
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Superchuck

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2013, 11:03:29 PM »
Thanks for the great info- I was totally misunderstanding this before.

So I have my new PCV valve.  It's this one:  http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_pcv-valve-purolator_5850509-p

When I suck on the fat end, it closes (lets very little air in... ie: creates an [almost] vacuum.)

Do I want to connect this big end towards my crank case?  That's what I was assuming, as this would simulate the duckbill's action.

Thanks!

Chuck

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4138
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2013, 11:11:46 PM »
The fat end that closes when you suck on it and opens when you blow is the end to point towards the crankcase.

Consider this as the "IN" end and the other port as the "OUT" end.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Superchuck

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2013, 11:51:33 PM »
Thanks very much-

Second question in regards to timing case pressure:
I haven't hooked up this new experiment yet, and I am still using a version of the OEM breather catch can. 

In my current setup, the crank case breather tube goes to the bottom of the catch can (with OEM duckbill location).  The timing case tube goes to the bottom of the catch can (as in OEM setup).  I have the third bottom hole plugged, and I have my primary case plugged.  The vent tube coming out of the top of the catch can, which used to go into my OEM air cleaner, now is open to the air- no duckbill, no PCV, nothing.

It is my belief that this open tube is causing a loss of pressure in the timing case, which is in turn reducing the effectiveness of my duckbill which creates a vacuum in the crankcase line.

I am also under the impression that in the OEM setup, this would still be the case.  In other words, in the OEM catch can setup, the timing case experiences a loss of pressure due to the OEM airbox tube.

Please let me know if I'm being dense.  I want to understand this ridiculous system so I can try and figure out my best solution.

Thanks!

Chuck

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2013, 01:05:35 AM »
You want to create vacuum in the crankcase relieving the pressure.  The Timing Case is connected to the oil tank by a drain passage.  Capping the Timing Case breather port will accomplish this.  Letting air into the Timing Case negates what you want.  The original design only had a breather on the side of the crankcase below the barrel with a duckbill on the end of a hose.  It was eliminated and the others created to pass emissions requirements.  It wasn't done to improve anything.
Pressure inside the crankcase and oil tank are helping to blow the oil out the vent hose.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4138
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2013, 01:56:01 AM »
I shouldn't get into this any more than I have but I believe there are three separate areas involved here.
There is the crankcase with the crankshaft/rod/piston which is the area that should be kept at as low of a pressure as possible.  The gasses that leak past the piston rings and the downward movement of the piston can create a high pressure in this area

There is the timing case which indirectly receives the oil that was scavenged from the crankcase by the scavenge oil pump.  This scavenged oil is first pumped to the rocker arms/valve area and then drains down into it.
In the timing case the collected oil lubricates the cam gears and the cam followers (valve lifters).
As more oil collects in the timing case, the excess drains back into the oil tank thru a connecting hole as D the D said.

There is the oil tank which is at about the same pressure as the timing case.

To aid the scavenge pump with its work, the air pressure in the timing case and the oil sump should be a slight vacuum.  This is presently accomplished by attaching the vent from the timing case to the air filter housing downstream from the airfilter.

Something to think about with this timing case/oil tank:  As the engine heats up the air inside these areas will expand.  In order to maintain a low pressure in these areas the expanded air needs a way of escaping.

I believe the original concept was the pressure in the crankcase would be released via the duck bill into the catch can.
The air and oil mist/droplets that come with it are collected in the catch can which serves as a separator and returned to the timing case.  The oil is supposed to return to the oil tank while the air is supposed to vent to the air filter.

I may have missed a hose here and perhaps the air in the catch can is supposed to vent to the outside air but that would defeat the idea of keeping the polluted air from escaping into the atmosphere.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2013, 03:55:01 AM »
The way mine came the oil that ran from the oil tank up to the catch can was supposed to run down to the Timing Cover and then drain back to the oil tank from the Timing Chest.  The line from the catch can to the Timing Cover had a one way valve in the middle of it that was supposed to only let air/oil move from the can down to the Timing Cover. Any fumes vented from the Oil Tank to the Catch Can were to be vented into the Air Box/Filter and burned in the engine.  Didn't work.  Oil went from the Catch Can to the Air Filter.  Pressure in the Oil Tank and Timing Chest are probably roughly the same and no circulation of oil occurred.
And yes, this has been beat to death in numerous threads.  We're going in circles and I'm out.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Buckeroo

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2013, 04:06:29 AM »
I still have some questions because I'm still trying to understand this engine.  I understand you guys are getting tired of beating this horse.

Thank you Arizoni for explaining the process.  I would like to completely not vent anything to that right side case so that I could use it for other things.  I'm not crazy about cleaning the catch can either.  So why does this engine create mayo?  Is it too much oil, just simple agitation in the crank case, normal operation leaking out as a result of too much pressure in the CC.    It looks to me as though the timing case return line/vent and CC vent are a looped process and need to stay that way.  If the oil can was eliminated from the loop, would the timing case get filled with the mayo goop?  So how does one eliminate the mayo?

Also another problem that I believe is coupled to this issue is the exact amount of oil that should be in this engine.  The manual indicates 2.25 quarts roughly.  I have read elsewhere that I should refill the oil through the exhaust valve cover if I have changed the oil filter.  This process primes the filter and pump so that engine will not operate dry when started the first time.  Just how much oil should be installed through that port and how much through the oil tank?  I read where Bill has 1.5 quarts in his oil tank.  It seems reasonable that the proper amount of oil maintained could eliminate or relax the agitation that creates the mayo.

Thanks for your thoughts.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3534
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2013, 04:07:40 AM »
Superchuck -  I messed around for MONTHS trying to build an effective catch can and messing with PCVs and everything I did just made a different problem.  I finally said screw it and I now just run the crank breather straight out the back fender and I lose WAY more oil out of my leaky crank case than I do out of the breather.  Do yourself a favor and rather than making a mess of a small problem just get the damn duckbill and be done with it.  I wish I had ordered one when I first started wrenching on this bike.  Would have saved me a lot of oil messes and headaches.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2013, 04:14:07 AM »
Superchuck -  I messed around for MONTHS trying to build an effective catch can and messing with PCVs and everything I did just made a different problem.  I finally said screw it and I now just run the crank breather straight out the back fender and I lose WAY more oil out of my leaky crank case than I do out of the breather.  Do yourself a favor and rather than making a mess of a small problem just get the damn duckbill and be done with it.  I wish I had ordered one when I first started wrenching on this bike.  Would have saved me a lot of oil messes and headaches.

Scottie

Bravo!
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4138
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2013, 04:52:31 AM »
Buckeroo
I can't help you with the amount of oil that is needed in your engine or to prime the pump.
I don't own a AVL so I don't have hands on knowledge.

The mayo is there because of the water thats collected in your crankcase and probably in your oil sump (tank).
The water is one of the things that are made when gasoline burns and it enters the oily areas as steam that can leak past the piston rings.
The steam mist and the oil mist in the crankcase combine to form this stuff.

Automobiles use a positive crankcase ventilation system using the intake manifold vacuum and the PCV valve to pump it into the inlet where it is burned by the engine.

Motorcycles don't use this system so the hose/tube/duck bill/catch can is an attempt to do it.

Once the water is mixed into the oil, the best way of getting rid of it without changing the oil is to get the oil really hot.  Venting the water off (without loosing the oil) is the problem.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2013, 01:25:52 PM »
Yep.  It isn't a problem specific to RE either.  My brother had a Triumph Trident that made mayo and I have had a Jeep and a couple of cars that made it when it was humid and I was only making short trips.  It would form under the valve covers and clog the PCV up.  Like Arizoni said, longer rides give time for the water to evaporate out of the oil and be expelled from the engine.  Mayo is a good term for it 'cause it's an emulsion of water and air in oil.  In one of the other threads I posted pictures of how bad it would get in my RE catch can in just a few weeks of short, local rides.  Short rides on cool, rainy days were worst.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Buckeroo

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
  • Karma: 0
Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2013, 04:12:39 PM »
okay, guys, thanks for your patience.  I guess the next step is to create a can easier to clean out, or just put up with the spray.  Now, after all these years I understand why the pcv has to always be replaced.  I have seen that mayo on the valve covers too. I wish that I could reroute the overflow at the top of the can back into the engine somewhere or someplace that wouldn't spray back on the bike.  It's funny how my little Honda SL125 from back in the 70's didn't have all these problems.  It just had a breather cap on top of the Crank case.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb