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Author Topic: Remove catch-can form an Electra  (Read 4303 times)

tooseevee

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »
okay, guys, thanks for your patience.  I guess the next step is to create a can easier to clean out, or just put up with the spray.  Now, after all these years I understand why the pcv has to always be replaced.  I have seen that mayo on the valve covers too. I wish that I could reroute the overflow at the top of the can back into the engine somewhere or someplace that wouldn't spray back on the bike.  It's funny how my little Honda SL125 from back in the 70's didn't have all these problems.  It just had a breather cap on top of the Crank case.

           Your little Hondas's oil probably got hotter than the RE's + I don't think our Federal government thought they were motorcycle engine engineers yet when your little Honda was made. The oil in the RE takes a long time to get hot & lots of short trips to town & then home just don't do it.

        I loved the little scramblers/dirt bikes of the '70s. Hodaka, Bultaco, all the screaming little meemies. You could even make a screamer out of the little Honda 90s & others for the kids then.

         Have dry sump engines (like my shovelheads) gone away? Never any mayo or anything out of my shovel's CC vent unless I let it sit too long. The oil just does its job & is routed back to the separate oil tank to then go from there to the oil pump again. The oil tank also serves as a little bit of a cooler. Some shovels of certain years actually had factory OEM oil coolers.   
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Buckeroo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2013, 03:22:23 PM »
The problem is, most of my travels and the reason for this bike, is for short trips to town 5-8 miles.  Most neighborhood trips are less than a mile.  The Honda 250 that I have borrowed to do my running on just has a breather box off the crank case, though it may have some way to catch mayo, I can't tell.  I'm sure its little cold blooded engine gets heated up because of its high revs. It has to choke for several miles before it will run normal however.  I do use the RE for some 100 mile runs, but they are few between.  If I working on some mods to do some light-medium touring.  I am some inspired my NoisyMilk.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
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Superchuck

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2013, 09:57:33 PM »
Thanks everyone for the awesome information.  Just trying to learn here, and I really appreciate all the help.

Two things I've learned:

1.  I'm probably best to just keep the OEM catch can.
2.  I probably won't have much of a problem with mayo since when I ride, it's usually 100+ miles a day of partial highway commuting.  Running it that hard, I think I'll have bigger fish to fry, with mayo being the least of my worries.

I'll probably still experiment though... can't help myself.  I'm coming up with an idea now that involves an ammo hopper from a paintball gun.    May not build it but it's the idea that's the fun part.

Cheers, and thanks again for reiterating the info.  (I think I get it now)

chuck

Machismo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #78 on: September 18, 2013, 11:42:15 AM »
My two cents on this awesomely chewed yet nagging topic!
I did quite a few mods on the breather after getting fed up of the mayo every now and then.
#Blocked the pipe from catch can to the air filter.
#Along with the above, blocked the pipe that goes from the catch can to the timing chest vent.
#Put on a duckbill on the timing vent and ran the open end of the catch can pipe near the side stand, without any duckbill.
Blocked the catch can-air filter line.
#Blocked the duckbill on the timing chest, air filter outlet blocked, CC connected to catch can and the catch can pipe to the timing chest hanging open near the side stand.

With all of the above variations, the catch can pipe to the primary case was blocked.
However, none of these proved to be a permanent solution to the mayo build up. As already mentioned, this is more prominent during short city runs and also during high speed riding.
Right now, my bike runs so bad that I dont feel like riding it at all.

So, gentlemen, what is the final solution!!
Is it that we should live with the factory set way of the catch can plumbing?
Nevertheless, the bike runs like shit and am really fed up with the erratic running.


tooseevee

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #79 on: September 18, 2013, 04:09:49 PM »

Right now, my bike runs so bad that I dont feel like riding it at all.

So, gentlemen, what is the final solution!!
Is it that we should live with the factory set way of the catch can plumbing?
Nevertheless, the bike runs like shit and am really fed up with the erratic running.

              Do you feel like starting a new topic & laying out what's wrong & including the bike's present state; jets, state of tune, what you've done? Some history?
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DanB

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2013, 04:19:47 PM »
Hi Machismo,  I certainly feel your pain.  I cant say that im an expert or that I've been able to eliminate the mayo; I'm not and I havent.  But I'll share what I've done and my thinking (right or wrong i cant say):

1.  I've kept the OEM catch can;  I dont like oily spray or a mess under the bike.
2.  Crank Case airline:  Routed by HIGH over the frame and then back down to the can.  Im using a clear hose I got from a hardware supplier so I can see what the f*** is going on. 
3.  I've blocked the timing chest line.  The design of this is actually a drain from the can back into the timing chest.  There is actually a duckbill in the timing chest that allows goo in, but doesnt allow goo or pressure out. 
4.  Left the primary case hose alone.  It still goes to the can.  I figure since I use nearly a liter of oil in the case, maybe a pressure relief is needed.  Honestly, I've never check it... hmmmm
5.  Where the Timing Chest hose used to connect to the can, I've installed about a 6 inch hose with a plumbers valve on it.  This is my drain.  It's also a clear hose so I can see when the mayo needs draining.  Works great after a ride.  I hide it behind the battery cover and then whip it out to drain the beast.
6.  Air line from can to the air box.  I've left this in place.  My thinking is if the C Case breather system needs to maintain a negative pressure, i need a fresh air line into the can to allow the mayo goo to enter into the can and therefore dont want a sealed pressure vessel (PV=nRT - not that the can is really that 'air tight').  Basically, I want the CC hose to remain clear and the stuff needs to be able to enter into the can with the neg pressure created by the duckbill. 

Is it really any different than stock?  Well, no not really except running high. But I have a drain without have to disassemble the left side of the bike! 

I still get mayo... especially when Im running short or hard.  But i dont care... just drain the beast.  Performance wise, Ive been running this way for over a year now.  Havent seen any decrease in performance, but I also make sure my lines are clear and free. 

As a suggestion: How about leaving your setup as is, with the air line open and not blocked?  Just an idea. 
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
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Arizoni

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2013, 04:44:57 PM »
I like your system Dan and I agree with you about leaving the air vent line open.

When the engine is running there is a bit of "blowby" that passes the piston rings and enters the crankcase.  Without some vent to the outside, this blowby has no place to go so it will pressurize the crankcase.

The added pressure will decrease the engines performance and can contribute to oil leaks thru the seals and flat gaskets.
Jim
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DanB

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2013, 07:46:20 PM »
Thanks Arizoni. You've put into words what I was thinking but just couldn't articulate properly.

I have a 2006 with the lump on the barrel. Have wondered if I should open that up instead. And that's as far as I've gotten.... Wondering..
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Machismo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2013, 04:15:27 AM »
Hi Machismo,  I certainly feel your pain.  I cant say that im an expert or that I've been able to eliminate the mayo; I'm not and I havent.  But I'll share what I've done and my thinking (right or wrong i cant say):

1.  I've kept the OEM catch can;  I dont like oily spray or a mess under the bike.
2.  Crank Case airline:  Routed by HIGH over the frame and then back down to the can.  Im using a clear hose I got from a hardware supplier so I can see what the f*** is going on. 
3.  I've blocked the timing chest line.  The design of this is actually a drain from the can back into the timing chest.  There is actually a duckbill in the timing chest that allows goo in, but doesnt allow goo or pressure out. 
4.  Left the primary case hose alone.  It still goes to the can.  I figure since I use nearly a liter of oil in the case, maybe a pressure relief is needed.  Honestly, I've never check it... hmmmm
5.  Where the Timing Chest hose used to connect to the can, I've installed about a 6 inch hose with a plumbers valve on it.  This is my drain.  It's also a clear hose so I can see when the mayo needs draining.  Works great after a ride.  I hide it behind the battery cover and then whip it out to drain the beast.
6.  Air line from can to the air box.  I've left this in place.  My thinking is if the C Case breather system needs to maintain a negative pressure, i need a fresh air line into the can to allow the mayo goo to enter into the can and therefore dont want a sealed pressure vessel (PV=nRT - not that the can is really that 'air tight').  Basically, I want the CC hose to remain clear and the stuff needs to be able to enter into the can with the neg pressure created by the duckbill. 

Is it really any different than stock?  Well, no not really except running high. But I have a drain without have to disassemble the left side of the bike! 

I still get mayo... especially when Im running short or hard.  But i dont care... just drain the beast.  Performance wise, Ive been running this way for over a year now.  Havent seen any decrease in performance, but I also make sure my lines are clear and free. 

As a suggestion: How about leaving your setup as is, with the air line open and not blocked?  Just an idea. 
Thanks a lot Dan. This ride means a lot to me and despite the hassles, I love it(and working on it) and do not want to go the UCE way - this motorcycle has way too much of character.
I agree with your suggestion of opening up the catch can-air filter line. Will do it today.
About #3 of your post: Crank Case airline:  Routed by HIGH over the frame and then back down to the can.
Could you post a picture? In my case, the hose is a factory made one and its such a struggle to get it over the frame, behind the battery case. Far too little space, actually.
Also, that clear hose pipe of yours - can it withstand the high temperature? I kinda killed the thought of using the normal clear pipes, the last thing i want is a melted crank case hose pipe!


I like your system Dan and I agree with you about leaving the air vent line open.

When the engine is running there is a bit of "blowby" that passes the piston rings and enters the crankcase.  Without some vent to the outside, this blowby has no place to go so it will pressurize the crankcase.

The added pressure will decrease the engines performance and can contribute to oil leaks thru the seals and flat gaskets.
You put in so few words and that's so very comprehensible!
Thanks Arizoni..

              Do you feel like starting a new topic & laying out what's wrong & including the bike's present state; jets, state of tune, what you've done? Some history?
Thanks tooseevee. For now, I just want to fight this breather demon, hence did not start a new thread. Once a good set up is obtained, probably things may take a positive turn.
Will keep you posted.

Came early from work, am going to have the hot tube put back in the header since after about 6 months of riding without it, the low end torque has certainly gone for a toss - having done an upjet with #17.5 pilot to compensate for the change and the glass wool goldstar exhaust.
If I get any spare time, will also re-route the breather hoses today and see if it makes any difference.
Thanks a lot guys.

Machismo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2013, 10:50:18 AM »
Update folks:
Got the hot tube welded back on the header pipe.
Rode back home while noticing that the low end jerks had considerably reduced.
Re routed the catch can-air filter hose(which I had stupidly blocked using M-Seal).
The motorcycle runs so much better. Incredible what a couple of changes effect this bike! Still not sure if this is the perfect set up.

DanB

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2013, 11:20:35 AM »
Excellent news!  Nice work.
Quote
Could you post a picture? In my case, the hose is a factory made one and its such a struggle to get it over the frame, behind the battery case. Far too little space, actually.
Also, that clear hose pipe of yours - can it withstand the high temperature?

I dont have a pic at work, but honestly, it looks nearly identical to Bill's pic on page 1 of this thread, 1st post.  The clear hose (im thinking is just a PVC) really isnt troubled by temperature at the case.  It doesnt get as hot as you'd think at the contact point.  I did have trouble making the turns without crimping, so I used small copper plumbing fittings to help make the turns.  I do make sure every month or so to clear the lines;  Easy to know when to do so as you can see right into it. 
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
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ace.cafe

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2013, 11:24:51 AM »
Remember that these bikes are designed to be operated at medium and higher rpms.
Riding at low rpms that cause chain jerk is to be avoided at all times.
I realize that there is some sort of cultural thing in India which involves lugging the engines to death at low rpms in high gears, but I assure you that this practice is not "cool" and is damaging the engine.
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Machismo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »
Remember that these bikes are designed to be operated at medium and higher rpms.
Riding at low rpms that cause chain jerk is to be avoided at all times.
I realize that there is some sort of cultural thing in India which involves lugging the engines to death at low rpms in high gears, but I assure you that this practice is not "cool" and is damaging the engine.
Totally(sadly as well) agree with your point on people here lugging the Bulls. More than cultural thing, it's almost attained a cult status.
However, when I meant by low end jerks, it was about how effortlessly the bike pulled from 2nd gear, with speed around 20kmph. When I had the hot tube removed, I constantly use the clutch to control the lack of torque under same circumstances(even with an up jetted carb). I am gonna open a new thread on this damn tube! Hope you'll pen down your thoughts there.

tooseevee

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2013, 01:17:59 PM »
Totally(sadly as well) agree with your point on people here lugging the Bulls. More than cultural thing, it's almost attained a cult status.
However, when I meant by low end jerks, it was about how effortlessly the bike pulled from 2nd gear, with speed around 20kmph. When I had the hot tube removed, I constantly use the clutch to control the lack of torque under same circumstances(even with an up jetted carb). I am gonna open a new thread on this damn tube! Hope you'll pen down your thoughts there.

        I have NONE of these "torque" problems in my '08 AVL with K&N intake & wide open exhaust (muffler) & the hot tube removed. You have to do a lot of carb learning & rejetting & experimenting to get them right. I've probably had the carb off (or just the top off) 20 times, but that's what you gotta do if you want to make intake & exhaust mods & if you're not ready to do it you should leave it as it is when it comes out the last door in Chennai.

        I only have 880 miles as of today so I've not ever REALLY porked it yet, but it will jump to 40 like a rocket (an RE "rocket") in 3rd gear. And it will jump like a rocket (again, an RE rocket) from 40 to 60 in 4th OR 5th just rolling the throttle on. I also don't feel any of these "torque problems" around town in ANY gear. I'm also NEVER in 4th under 40 & it never dies in traffic or at stop signs (& leave that clutch lever out).

         I think I'm leaning more & more toward getting an electronic tach next season (instead of Hagons). I'll have over a 1,000 by then & I'm the type who just wants to "know".
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Machismo

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Re: Remove catch-can form an Electra
« Reply #89 on: September 20, 2013, 10:14:44 AM »
Excellent news!  Nice work.
I dont have a pic at work, but honestly, it looks nearly identical to Bill's pic on page 1 of this thread, 1st post.  The clear hose (im thinking is just a PVC) really isnt troubled by temperature at the case.  It doesnt get as hot as you'd think at the contact point.  I did have trouble making the turns without crimping, so I used small copper plumbing fittings to help make the turns.  I do make sure every month or so to clear the lines;  Easy to know when to do so as you can see right into it. 
I usually check the mayo can during overnight stays while on the long rides(about 500miles), otherwise once in a fortnight.
Will see if i can find some clear hoses - much simpler to see what's happening.

        I have NONE of these "torque" problems in my '08 AVL with K&N intake & wide open exhaust (muffler) & the hot tube removed. You have to do a lot of carb learning & rejetting & experimenting to get them right. I've probably had the carb off (or just the top off) 20 times, but that's what you gotta do if you want to make intake & exhaust mods & if you're not ready to do it you should leave it as it is when it comes out the last door in Chennai.

        I only have 880 miles as of today so I've not ever REALLY porked it yet, but it will jump to 40 like a rocket (an RE "rocket") in 3rd gear. And it will jump like a rocket (again, an RE rocket) from 40 to 60 in 4th OR 5th just rolling the throttle on. I also don't feel any of these "torque problems" around town in ANY gear. I'm also NEVER in 4th under 40 & it never dies in traffic or at stop signs (& leave that clutch lever out).

         I think I'm leaning more & more toward getting an electronic tach next season (instead of Hagons). I'll have over a 1,000 by then & I'm the type who just wants to "know".
Well I did try out a lot of jet options with the stock BS29, almost so repetitively that I could get teh carb off , jet change and back on in about 30min.
But once I installed the BS32, just did one change of plonking in a 17.5 pilot and 120 main. This set up did work well for a couple of months. Not sure what happened after that.
So will have to see if the current setting work right.
Am also gonna check the clutch tune up as well.