HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

keep walking


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 24, 2014, 06:58:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: kickback / coughing carb  (Read 4306 times)

cyrusb

  • Kept man
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2292
  • Karma: 1
  • Theres a last time for everything
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 01:09:01 PM »
Black soot inside the exhaust pipe, or at least blackish. Not black smoke.

deejay

  • Guest
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 03:35:19 PM »
Black soot inside the exhaust pipe, or at least blackish. Not black smoke.

I've never seen an exhaust pipe that was clean on the inside.

cyrusb

  • Kept man
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2292
  • Karma: 1
  • Theres a last time for everything
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 03:57:05 PM »
Then you have never seen  a lean unit. I have seen white. Grey is a good color.

Foggy_Auggie

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 07:42:45 PM »
Leonard's reply #14 is right on the mark.

Retarded timing generates excessive heat.

Set it using the ammeter kick (for points opening) at 0.8mm BTD.
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Fortiter Et Fideliter

Peter

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2008, 11:03:06 PM »
That static timing thing may not get you anywhere. One mm after TDC or 0.8 mm before may each get you into the ballpark. You can already start the engine so you can also dynamically check the timing.
If you have a timing light, you can take off the timing side cover, somehow mark TDC on the magnet and the alternator and 32 degrees advance from there, also on the alternator.  After you have made the marks, start the engine and rev it a little bit while shining your light on your marks. Your TDC mark on the magnet should hover around your 32 mark. Adjust as necessary.
With a fancy timing light you don't need the 32 degrees mark, just make the TDC marks line up after setting the advance dial to 32 (or 64, you'll see what I mean when you shine it on there, has to do with the timing gears and no wasted spark). 32 degrees is definitely in the ballpark and takes timing out of the equation for now. Then troubleshoot the mixture. And then ping time it. You are not going to load the engine much during initial break-in, so don't worry about being exactly on the spot for now. Again, this is not an alternative to ping timing, but you can measure advance with your light AFTER you have ping timed the engine for future reference.

You haven't increased compression, or have you?
I'm asking because that changes the timing thing significantly.

Peter

Foggy_Auggie

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2008, 01:07:56 AM »
That static timing thing may not get you anywhere. One mm after TDC or 0.8 mm before may each get you into the ballpark. You can already start the engine so you can also dynamically check the timing.

Peter

This engine is obviously not a high tech state of the art racing engine.  I'll concede that 1.0mm BTDC static timing won't hurt it.  Anymore advance, there can be occasional kickback issues.  My own engine is an example.

And the 1.0mm ATDC - there will be higher heat generated.

Peter - you go into great (and good) detail about using a degree set up and timing light.  Then you go into "PING" timing after all the good stuff - I've never "pinged" timed any engine in my life.  "Ping" timing is about a shot in the dark as anything.  With all the variables of heat, humidity, octane and static load being just the highlights.  It's too fine a line to tread for an engine of moderate output and long use.

Years ago I used to build and tune racing engines for drag racing.  I'm not some pilgrim.

The iron engine goes to full advance, anyway, very quickly.  And the average rider is not going to be able tell if his engine is static timed correctly or "ping" timed as far as performance.  And if the centrifugal advance is sticking and doesn't go full advance - and the engine is "ping" timed that way - what happens when it "unsticks" while riding...

All this engine needs is correct static timing and plug readings after short bursts of WOT and hitting the kill switch.  The plug readings are for carb jetting and settings.  The Champion Sparkplug website has excellent pictures of plugs in all states of use.  And also pictures of plugs that have been "pinging" or even under detonation loads.

My three pence worth.  8)
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Fortiter Et Fideliter

Peter

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2008, 11:15:13 AM »
I'm not talking about about timing the stock Bullet in general which is not a big deal at all.
Jordan had a problem with backfire and retarded to 1mm after TDC to get rid of it.
That is the problem and the easiest and quickest way see if there is any issue with the ignition and to get it in the ballpark is to shine a timing light on it.
A timing light is cheap and comes with instructions and answers all timing questions in about ten minutes worth of work.
Nothing complicated about it and also nothing complicated about ping timing.
I would't underestimate the "average Bullet rider".

Peter

Peter

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2008, 11:23:29 AM »

... The iron engine goes to full advance, anyway, very quickly.  And the average rider is not going to be able tell if his engine is static timed correctly or "ping" timed as far as performance.  And if the centrifugal advance is sticking and doesn't go full advance - and the engine is "ping" timed that way - what happens when it "unsticks" while riding...


That is precisely why ping timing is such a good thing to know how to do.
The Bulleteer who has ping timed the engine, knows ping.
And what would an advance coming unstuck cause? Right, ping!
Time to investigate and correct.
What would a stuck advance do to a statically timed engine? Right, burn the exhaust valve and cause other overheating disasters.

Peter

JordanMix

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
Gentlemen.

Thank you for all the help and advice. I am going to have a go at it this Friday night and Saturday to see if I can get it in proper riding state. I have never used a timing light or wheel before. Since I have purchased the Bullet I have been using a test light and a top dead center tool (which I think it less than precise). I do have an appointment scheduled next week to have to bike looked over. I had pretty much everything apart this winter and sitting on my garage floor/work benches. I just want a professional mechanic to give it a once over before I go out on the road and end up spilling it because of a simple error.

One questions I do have is there some certain parameters I should give them mechanic in regards to timing other than the .8mm before TDC? This may have been answered in Peters reply, but I just donít understand it because I have zero experience with a timing wheel/timing light. Should I just tell the mechanic that it should be statically timed at 32 degrees before top dead center? Or should I just print out Peters reply and give it to the mechanic? This is of course if I can not get it sorted out by myself this weekend. The shop I am going to is a Royal Enfield dealer, I just do not believer their maintenance team has any real experience with Enfields as my bike is the only one I have ever seen around my town area and they have told me the Enfield has been a very slow mover for them.

Peter

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2008, 06:24:55 PM »
You only have to tell the mechanic that FULL ADVANCE should be about 32 degrees, not static timing.
The only issue is that the Bullet does not have TDC and timing marks.
You need to put at least a TDC mark on the magnet and a TDC mark on the alternator then make another mark 32 degrees clockwise (to the RIGHT) of the TDC mark also on the alternator. Then you have to tell the mechanic which mark is which.
However, once you have arrived at that point you don't really need a mechanic anymore. Just shine the light on it and rev to 2-4000 rpm. The Bullet advance unit fully advances below 2000, so you don't have to go crazy with revving.
Timing lights are available at any auto parts store and come with simple instructions for hookup.
You don't need a fancy wheel to determine full advance, just something to measure an angle with.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 06:27:18 PM by Peter »

JordanMix

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2008, 06:59:27 PM »
Peter, thanks for the help. I will let everyone know how it goes. Hopefully by next saturday all the wrinkles will be worked out of my bike and i can fianlly get on the road with no issues for the first time since purchaseing it last August.

Foggy_Auggie

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 589
  • Karma: 0
Re: kickback / coughing carb
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2008, 08:20:13 PM »
The dealer will know the difference between dynamic timing for total advance and static timing for initial advance.

Initial advance is where it sets with the engine shut off.   

The dynamic advance is the point cam rotor mechanically being turned by centrifugal weights the higher the engine RPM.

With the point cover removed and grasping the cam rotor - it can be rotating in one direction while observing the springs, weights and slot mechanism of the centrifugal advance.  This will be easier to understand  then a few more paragraphs!
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Fortiter Et Fideliter