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Author Topic: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed  (Read 2115 times)

boxbiker

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difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« on: January 14, 2012, 02:13:56 AM »
I just installed the right foot gear change kit on my 2002 4 speed. I have adjusted the clutch but I am still having shifting problems. It is difficult to get into first and change gears then into neutral. I am wondering about the gear operator selector assembly. I looked at it when I had everything apart and it looked a little worn so I wonder if it needs adjusting and if so how to do it. I can't find anything in the workshop manual.

any help?

Arizoni

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 04:34:31 AM »
That sounds like the clutch might not be fully releasing to me.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

barenekd

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 06:19:01 PM »
+1, clutch dragging.
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boxbiker

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 10:12:33 PM »
Clutch not the problem.

I adjusted the selector and the clutch pre manual. Rode and still almost impossible to get into gear and inpresise, difficult shifting.

Put it on the lift and center stand and removed the primary so I could see the clutch lift.Adjusted the clutch again and could watch it engage and disengage. Still difficult to put into gear and to shift.

I was this bad with the sloppy left foot shift linkage. It's like the trans gears are not moving as they should.

t120rbullet

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2012, 12:48:02 AM »
Is the bolt that holds on the neutral finder no more than finger tight ? That gearbox will not function with that bolt tightened up.

If the GOSA (gear operator selector assembly) is the problem it will shift. It just wont stop where it's supposed to going right past the intended gear.  The GOSA is supposed to have a good knife like edge on it so it can drop into the notches on the gear selector.
I disassemble them, grind and stone it to a nice sharp edge, heat it to cherry red and quench it in oil and then polish it to remove the sharp edge. You can cut a coil or 2 off the spring before you put ti back together to improve shifting some more. When you put back in note the gear selector behind it and note the position of the sharp end of the GOSA. Thread it in until it hits the gear selector and give it 1 to 1 1/2 more turns in.

If it's not that then it's your shifter ratchet adjustment. Much harder to explain how to do that. I do it by feel, if it's going past the intended gear on the upshift then it needs to be adjusted counterclockwise a bit. If you need I have a good write up on adjusting that gearbox. Rarely do I get that adjustment right the first time.
I was talking to a RE engineer about that adjustment and he told me they just do it by sight. I was thinking that these guys are good until I was looking at some factory pics (I think on the Australian web site) and it showed them setting them up on a test stand with an electric motor turning them.
CJ







1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

Chasfield

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2012, 05:09:07 PM »
A dragging clutch can lead you to believe that you have a baulking, difficult gear change mechanism - and the Bullet clutch is very prone to dragging, like on all British bikes I ever rode.

Try shifting the gearbox with the engine turned off and the bike on the main stand. Don't touch the clutch but rock the rear wheel forward and back to ease in the gears. Often a box will shift cleanly in this mode, with light gear lever loads. If it fails this test then you perhaps do have some shift mech problems.

With a dragging clutch, the trouble starts when you fire the motor up and try shifting in normal mode. A dragging clutch still feeds appreciable torque into the box when it is pulled in. It is this torque which makes first hard to engage at rest and snags up your moving gear changes.


« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 05:24:51 PM by Chasfield »
2001 500 Bullet Deluxe

GreenMachine

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2012, 05:38:05 PM »
would a dragging clutch feel like your going down the road in 5th/4th gear at a steady pace and iall of a sudden you  feels like a slight slip of power to the rear wheel not associated with a engine miss? 
Oh Magoo you done it again

Chasfield

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2012, 11:31:53 AM »
That is what you might experience with a slipping clutch - the engine note rises without an increase in road speed. A dragging clutch is one that doesn't release adequately for a clean gear change. Causes of a slipping clutch are worn friction linings or weak pressure springs. Also, the clutch will slip if the clutch push rod clearance adjuster is wound too far in so that the clutch is partially lifted, even though the handlebar lever is fully released. If the cable adjusters are wound too far out then you can get the same preloading effect on the push rod. This is very bad for the push rod, which will be in danger of overheating its bearing surfaces as the clutch slips constantly under load.

It is possible to have a clutch that drags and slips at the same time if it is built from warped and worn plates and the lift mechanism is badly adjusted.

Such units were commonplace on British bikes, which is one of the reasons people gave up on them and bought Hondas.

The stock RE 4 speed clutch is marginal. If it is perfectly adjusted and built from decent straight components, it is just good enough to give an acceptable gear change and handle standard power output. However, slip and drag are just around the corner if any of these variables change.

The new UCE bikes have a greatly improved clutch, with torque handling capacity to spare.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 11:40:24 AM by Chasfield »
2001 500 Bullet Deluxe

boxbiker

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2012, 09:15:34 PM »
t120rbullet..I have been working all day on this trans. I have been trying to make the adjustments you recommended but I don't seem to be able to make any difference. As it is now it is very difficult to get into first..I can reach down and shift it into first by hand and it will go in. Then when trying to go up it will hit a neutral or jump a gear.

Can you forward me the article you mentioned?

thanx

t120rbullet

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 11:13:27 PM »
Here's one from the early days of the RE Yahoo group.



Adjusting the shifter movement is not the easiest thing to explain
and it's
even more frustrating to do. If you have  a parts book please refer
to it
while I try to explain the adjustment.

First thing to do is remove the gear box cover. The neutral finder
should
come off with your fingers as it should not be completely tightened
down.
The spring holds it from loosening off. Remove the kick starter. Now
there
are five screws to remove around the perimeter of the cover. The
small screw
that holds the inspection cover in the top left corner is one of the
screws.
Now the cover can be slid off the kick start shaft and rotated around
so
that you can pull the clutch cable from the lever inside the cover.

In the left hand top corner of the inner cover you will see the
ratchet
mechanism. As you shift gears the foot control ratchet (outer) will
rotate
and engage a tooth of the inner ratchet. What happens if this
mechanism is
not adjusted correctly is that the outer ratchet will just miss a
tooth on
the inner ratchet and by the time it reaches the next tooth you have
run out
of movement on your foot shift; therefore the gear will not engage.

The very back plate is called the foot control adjuster plate and is
slotted
to allow you to move it side to side in order to get the outer and
inner
ratchets to engage properly. What you are trying to achieve is that
the
outer ratchet catches the closest tooth of the inner ratchet as it
move
through the gears in both directions. Since you have a left side
shift lever
you may need another person to help you.

The foot control stop plate which holds this ratchet mechanism
together has
two holes in it which will allow you to see the inner ratchet. While
rotating the rear wheel have someone shift for you while you watch
the outer
ratchet engage the inner ratchet. You should be able to see if the
outer
ratchet is slipping past a tooth on the inner ratchet. If so, the
adjuster
plate will have to be moved until the outer ratchet connects with the
closest tooth on the inner ratchet each time you shift gears. To
adjust the
plate you will have to remove the stop plate. There are only two
small nuts
holding it in place. The foot control adjuster plate pins can now be
loosened off so that the adjuster plate can be moved side to side.
You'll
just have to play with it until it does what you want it to do. You
may have
to assemble everything and ride the bike and come back and make
further
adjustments to get it working right.

I hope all this makes sense to you. Let me know how you make out.

Terry
       
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

t120rbullet

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 11:14:54 PM »
And another,


Terry's description works well. I had a similar problem to you after
                converting from LH to RH shift. Here are some tips that helped me...

                Ride the bike and determine whether the gearbox shifts too much or too
                little. For example when shifting from 2nd to 3rd the gears pop out
                to a neutral between 3rd and 4th, it shifts too far (this was my
                trouble). Or for example when shifting from 2nd to 3rd the gears pop
                out to a neutral between 2nd and 3rd then it shifts too short. If you
                have to drive holding it in 4th gear with your foot it !probably!
                shifts too short. If it seems to jump out of gear to neutrals both
                above and below your selected gear check the GOSA (see below).

                Put the bike on the center stand so that the rear wheel is clear of
                the cement and can be turned by hand. Remove the outer gearbox cover.

                Check the spring loaded gear selector detent pin that is at the upper
                front under the outer gearbox cover. Jan's old posts call it a GOSA
                and you should be able to find it in the archives. The GOSA is what
                holds the gears in gear. There are 5 detents that the GOSA slips into
                in the inner "gear operator" (1st, neutral, 2nd,3rd,4th). If the GOSA
                is too loose, misaligned (slot and taper not horizontal), or the
                taper is rounded off it will allow the "gear operator" to move and
                gear to slip out. When the GOSA is over tightened the tapered face
                quickly becomes a rounded rubbing block rather than a tapered detent
                pin. Set the GOSA up correctly before adjusting the ratchet (below)
                and use Jan's posts and common sense to set it snug but not too tight.
                (The taper should not bottom the spring between the detents. the
                repair book had a terribly vague description of how to do it)

                After the GOSA's in good working order... With the bike on the center
                stand and the outer cover off the gearbox re-install the foot shifter
                (this is easy with RH shift and may not be practical with LH shift)
                You may have to reinstall the kickstart lever too. You should be able
                to turn the rear wheel with your left hand and shift up and down
                through the gears with your right (or you may need an assistant with
                LH shift). As you shift you will be able to watch the ratchet that
                Terry's post talks about. You can loosen the nuts that hold the
                adjuster and move it on its slot to see how the adjustment changes how
                far it shifts.

                If your bike was shifting too far the ratchet will allow the "gear
                operator" to move past the GOSA's detent. For RH shift this means the
                shift lever is rotating clockwise and the solution !if I remember
                correctly! is to rotate the ratchet adjuster plate counter clockwise
                (sort this out for yourself by going through the gears a lot). In my
                case I could not rotate the adjuster plate enough and I had to file
                the slots in the adjuster plate longer. I didn't do any filing until
                I'd adjusted it several times with plenty of riding on each change.
                (It's not a 1 day process unless you're REALLY in to it.) When the
                adjustment is close the bike was very ridable and only popped out of
                gear occaisionally.

                If your bike was shifting short the RH shift lever will need to move
                further. If I remember correctly (!) this means you need to move the
                ratchet adjuster plate clockwise.

                Some other things could cause jumping out of gears... Worn gears,
                bent main or layshaft, or the detents worn out of the gear operator.

                Good luck and patience,

                Shawn
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

boxbiker

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 01:15:08 AM »
thanx for all the info, I'll work on it again tomorrow.

The latest wrinkle is that I have lost the slot on the gear selector that the GOSA slots into. I could look up into it and see the slot but in trying to set that I can no longer see the slot and I can't work it back into position. My next thought is to pull the inner cover off to see what is happening.

The more I work on this the worse it gets.

t120rbullet

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 02:13:41 AM »
The more I work on this the worse it gets.

Sometimes it's best to just walk away and come back later with a clearer head.

The gear operator swings up and down and there are 5 notches in it. You can move it  with the neutral finder or the shifter.  The GOSA is what stops it at each one of the notches.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

boxbiker

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 07:04:41 PM »
update...

after setting and resetting the gosa and the selector plate it now shifts into 1st fairly easy. When I ride it and go to 2nd and 3rd all I get is neutrals..then into 4th ok. Not able to down shift.

I have gears only when the shifter is at its extremes (1st and 4th)

It will fall into neutral but the neutral light does not come on so I assume it's not fully in neutral.

The rachet engages on the first tooth going up and down.

I'm thinking it is going thru the gears and to neutral between the gears and I need to limit travel?

boxbiker

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Re: difficult gear shifting in a 4 speed
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 08:25:17 PM »
further update...

now all the neutrals have disappeared...I cannot get a neutral even using the neutral finder...

got it on the lift and outer cover off and cannot get it out of gear...