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Author Topic: Ace UCE project.  (Read 25783 times)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #375 on: June 25, 2013, 05:36:39 PM »
Yes, yes, Gorilla and Scooter Bob built a totally bitchen bike.  Moving on... ;)

How's progress on the UCE Fireball going?

Scott

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #376 on: June 25, 2013, 06:14:57 PM »
Yes, yes, Gorilla and Scooter Bob built a totally bitchen bike.  Moving on... ;)

How's progress on the UCE Fireball going?

Scott

We are awaiting the completion of the rocker arm system for the head. It's underway.
The piston will come next, and Chumma will be handling that part of it when he comes back from India in late July.
After that, it should be a matter of programming the ECU and getting it all dialed-in.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #377 on: August 16, 2013, 12:26:26 AM »
Rocker arm prototypes for the UCE project have been shipped and are on the way to us for evaluation.

Things are progressing, even if slowly.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #378 on: August 16, 2013, 12:49:31 AM »
Rocker arm prototypes for the UCE project have been shipped and are on the way to us for evaluation.

Things are progressing, even if slowly.

That's awesome!  Can't wait to see what you end up accomplishing with this project!

Scottie
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Mr.Mazza

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #379 on: August 26, 2013, 11:41:13 AM »
Bit of a bump, any new progress on this? Very interested!
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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #380 on: August 26, 2013, 06:05:47 PM »
Chumma is meeting with the custom ECU manufacturer for a training session.
Next month, the piston development begins.


Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #381 on: August 26, 2013, 06:14:45 PM »
When you do piston development, do you need to do it 100% from scratch?  Or can you get 'blanks' of some sort that are about right and mill them to exactly what you want?

Scott

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #382 on: August 27, 2013, 12:03:13 PM »
When you do piston development, do you need to do it 100% from scratch?  Or can you get 'blanks' of some sort that are about right and mill them to exactly what you want?

Scott

Typically, the forgings are made in basic bore sizes, and they are oversized enough in most areas, so that they can be machined to have the dome size and shape needed, and the other various requirements we may have.
So, it is the dimensional specs that we need to give them for this, and we also discuss weight saving and any other issues that may be needed for the application.
After that, they make a CNC program to finish up the forgings to our specs.

In the case of the UCE, with a closed chamber that probably won't be needing any dome or raised area for compression increase, it's mostly going to be making sure that we have sufficient valve recess depth for our increased valve lift, and also getting the squish distance set for the most common(sea level) applications. We are going to do some tests to see how much additional compression we can get by optimizing the squish, so that we can coax a little more power out of the package with a good piston design.

I don't know at this time if the AVL 535 piston will be compatible with our lift specs, but we will find that out, so that those who have already installed that AVL piston can know. Since we already know that the AVL piston squish is not in the proper spec, and we also know that the stock UCE squish is not in the proper spec,(contrary to others' conclusions) the AVL piston would require being set to a different deck height in the bore than the stock piston is set at, which can be done with some small amount of work involved.

When we have the opportunity to make a custom piston,  we'd like to get the most that we can get out of it, and have it do what we want it to do, with the easiest installation procedure for the user.

Perhaps we're just a bit more "picky" about things than other people, but we sometimes are aware of some more technical issues than others might see. We don't just do extra things for no reason. We do have reasons, even if some people don't know what those reasons are.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:08:15 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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ScooterBob

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #383 on: August 27, 2013, 11:40:05 PM »
Since we already know that the AVL piston squish is not in the proper spec, and we also know that the stock UCE squish is not in the proper spec,(contrary to others' conclusions) the AVL piston would require being set to a different deck height in the bore than the stock piston is set at, which can be done with some small amount of work involved.

I know, right? Those engineers at RE are sure dumb not to get the squish area JUST right on every one of the 150K bikes a year that they make! Seems to ME that they run pretty good ..... and they'll run better with the AVL piston in 'em - especially since it's the same nominal bore size, weight, pin height and all .... but with a flat top. A feller COULD spend a fortune or a lifetime to re-invent a AVL piston - or he could just buy one and put it in there and have a little more zoot ...... Just sayin' ..... and concludin' ...... ;D
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Bulletman

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #384 on: August 28, 2013, 12:34:14 AM »
I know, right? Those engineers at RE are sure dumb not to get the squish area JUST right on every one of the 150K bikes a year that they make! Seems to ME that they run pretty good ..... and they'll run better with the AVL piston in 'em - especially since it's the same nominal bore size, weight, pin height and all .... but with a flat top. A feller COULD spend a fortune or a lifetime to re-invent a AVL piston - or he could just buy one and put it in there and have a little more zoot ...... Just sayin' ..... and concludin' ...... ;D
I'm no piston expert Scooterbob, but what you're sayin' makes total "Common" sense to me...I sure don't want or rather wouldn't want to spend a fortune...not if if I can help it. :)
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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #385 on: August 28, 2013, 12:49:21 AM »
Apparently.
It's really not a contentious or argumentative issue.
It's either in squish spec or it's not. The  OEM ones that we've seen are not.
What their reasons are for making this decision is unknown to me.
Ours will be within the generally accepted squish distance because we wish to utilize the benefits of the mixture motion in the combustion process as part of the improvements with our kit.

However, our piston project only regards our kit, since our kit has specific requirements that are different from the OEM parts. OEM specs or other performance products' specs are outside our purview, except that we observe and note what we see and measure about them.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 01:21:03 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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Arizoni

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #386 on: August 28, 2013, 04:30:57 AM »
I don't doubt that replacing the existing UCE piston with a AVL piston will raise the compression ratio (assuming the cylinder is mounted at the same height) and result in some power increase.  This increased power does come with some risk though.
The revised combustion area with a flat topped piston may be more prone to pre-ignition or detonation  which the relieved dome piston helps to prevent.
Using higher octane fuel may be necessary to keep this from happening.  On the other hand, it may not be enough by itself.

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.
When maximum power is the goal, improving the entire combustion area with a properly designed piston crown and modifying the combustion area to create a proven squash type combustion chamber is needed.

IMO, the original UCE combustion zone was designed to create modest gains in power and high reliability while giving the best fuel economy while using low octane fuel.  This goal was reached with the existing design.

Ace on the other hand is looking to get the greatest power out of the engine without sacrificing reliability or creating a engine that needs 100 + octane fuel.

While using the AVL piston in place of the original UCE piston is an option, making it the only option would tie his hands and keep him from reaching his goal of developing the maximum power possible.

At least, that's the way I see it. :)
Jim
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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #387 on: August 28, 2013, 02:10:05 PM »
I don't doubt that replacing the existing UCE piston with a AVL piston will raise the compression ratio (assuming the cylinder is mounted at the same height) and result in some power increase.  This increased power does come with some risk though.
The revised combustion area with a flat topped piston may be more prone to pre-ignition or detonation  which the relieved dome piston helps to prevent.
Using higher octane fuel may be necessary to keep this from happening.  On the other hand, it may not be enough by itself.

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.
When maximum power is the goal, improving the entire combustion area with a properly designed piston crown and modifying the combustion area to create a proven squash type combustion chamber is needed.

IMO, the original UCE combustion zone was designed to create modest gains in power and high reliability while giving the best fuel economy while using low octane fuel.  This goal was reached with the existing design.

Ace on the other hand is looking to get the greatest power out of the engine without sacrificing reliability or creating a engine that needs 100 + octane fuel.

While using the AVL piston in place of the original UCE piston is an option, making it the only option would tie his hands and keep him from reaching his goal of developing the maximum power possible.

At least, that's the way I see it. :)

I'm in agreement with much of the above statement.

Here are the details about my observations and opinions on the subject.

First, the AVL and UCE have a "more modern" closed chamber design than the Iron Barrel open chamber hemi. However, they do not have a fully "modern" closed chamber, owing to the side-draft induction configuration inherent in the vintage style engine layout chosen for the "retro" styling needed for the market. Side-draft induction comes with a need to angle the valves quite wide from vertical, so that there is not such a severe turn in the port to get the mixture into the cylinder. When these valves are angled like this, the valve heads automatically require a fairly deep combustion chamber to fit them in there. With a combustion chamber deep enough to accommodate these valve sizes, the volume of the combustion chamber is still fairly big in terms of modern chamber size, even if it is a "more modern" closed chamber design. So, there are some inherent challenges which come along with this.

Typically, one of the first things to do with a closed chamber is to use the squish/quench area inherent with a closed chamber design. This squish comes from the piston coming within a very close distance to the flat areas of the cylinder head, and "squishing" the mixture in those areas toward the center of the chamber as the piston goes over TDC, thus increasing the motion of the mixture during the combustion phase, generally giving a faster and more complete burn with less end-gas problems. The small gap remaining between the flat area of the piston crown and the flat areas around the perimeter of the closed chamber then constitute a "quench" area which prevents the burning in that thin quench gap, preventing the detonation of the end gases at the furthest ends of the chamber in the quench area. These things combine to allow a higher working compression ratio with the same fuel octane because the mixture motion from the squish, and the improvements of quench, can get the mixture burned more quickly and evenly, generally staving-off detonation and other end gas issues up to a certain amount of more compression being allowed before these problems do begin to arise. It's not a panacea, but it can give a little bit more by using it, than would be available if not using it. So, it is common practice in modern engines to use it, even with  fully modern chambers of very small volume and upright valve angles, because it does work to allow more compression to be used to gain more power and more complete burns.
That's why it is used. There are established and accepted engineering guidelines for designing squish and quench distance and area into the piston/chamber interface which are well-known for many years now.
Bringing the squish/quench zones into play for the best effect can be an important key to getting the power and efficiency improvement from raised compression, while managing the risks of higher compression reaching nearer to the edge of the fuel limits.

Using the squish/quench in a closed chamber in conjunction with a flat top piston is good design. The flat top piston has the smallest area of any piston crown shape, and this is valuable because it is the lightest weight crown shape, provides the lowest obstruction to the moving flame front during combustion, has the smallest potential for any hot spots arising from irregular shapes or edges, and the smallest area to absorb any useful heat away from the chamber into the piston body. I'm fully in favor of using a flat top piston in the applications of a closed chamber design with squish/quench whenever it is possible. So, I am not opposed to the use of a flat top piston in any way, as long as it is appropriate in the scope of the overall engine design. I expect our piston design to be a flat top design, with the necessary valve lift reliefs in the crown.

Regarding the use of the AVL 535 flat top, it might very well be able to be used with our kit too. At this time, it's too early for me to be able to say if it will, or it won't. If it can, that's fine. I will want it to be installed to our squish/quench requirements if anybody uses it with our kit, providing that there is such compatibility. Our kit will have valve lift increase, and it has not yet been determined if the AVL 535 flat top will have sufficient valve relief depth for our valve lift height at TDC, when installed at the proper deck height in relation to the barrel deck to achieve our squish/quench specs. So, that is something that remains to be determined. Our piston design that will be intended for our kit will have all the necessary dimensional and clearance requirements for compatibility, and also any other improvements that we can possibly put into it. That's why we are doing it. We are after a "plug and play" compatibility with all the components in our kit.
We are designing for an intended result with our kit.
We are not designing our kit around the use of some other parts that happen to be out there. If other parts work with it, that's just all the better for choices.



 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 04:31:28 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

ScooterBob

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #388 on: August 28, 2013, 10:49:39 PM »

While this AVL piston swap is a simple thing to do, it will not maximize the power that can be obtained though.


But it WILL maximise the amount of money left in your wallet - I just can't WAIT 'til the Gashouse Gorilla takes HIS stock, dished piston out and tries the AVL slug ....... !  ;)
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

gashousegorilla

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #389 on: August 29, 2013, 12:00:57 AM »
But it WILL maximise the amount of money left in your wallet - I just can't WAIT 'til the Gashouse Gorilla takes HIS stock, dished piston out and tries the AVL slug ....... !  ;)

   D'oh !!  Ahhhh..... Why not ?  I was gettin' bored just riding around on it anyway !  Guess I'm going back in....
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