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Author Topic: Ace UCE project.  (Read 28252 times)

ace.cafe

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Ace UCE project.
« on: March 03, 2012, 12:52:31 AM »
Well, one of our Fireballers got an itch to do a UCE, so he's sending us a nearly new G5 coming in for hotrodding in about a month from now.

This was what we needed to begin a UCE project, so this will be the mule for the parts development.
It will probably take till the end of the year to get it all worked out, but at least we're getting a start on it soon.

If there are any wish lists or anything for what people would like to see included, just speak up.

From what I could see in some photos that I scared-up of the internals, it looks like a fairly straightforward job for the top end work.

Comments, questions, or wishes are open for discussion. I'm doing this for you guys, so any help I can get to make you happy would be good to hear.

It's going to be a busy year, because we are doing this UCE project AND doing the 1000cc V-Twin at the same time. Busy hands are happy hands!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 12:58:30 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 01:18:30 AM »
Glad to hear it!

I'm sure there are lots of folks who want to bin the EFI and put a carb on it, but I'd like to see the EFI included and retuned.  EFI is a little less tuning approachable from the vantage point of a backyard mechanic but once we get at least one bike working with a Power Commander or other similar device it gets easier to make maps for common bike configurations: open exhaust, open airbox, both together, etc.  Once you have a few of those out there you can pull it down, load it up, and go!

Scott

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 01:29:31 AM »
Scott,
Yes, I would prefer to keep the EFI and work out something for the ECU programming.
I don't know if it will be the Power Commander or not. But I'll need to be able to re-tune this bike for the new engine parameters, so we will have some way to do that.
If it becomes impossible or too expensive, then we may look at carbs as a back-up option.
But, the first option is to retain the EFI, and probably modify the throttle body to suit the porting, and go from there.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

aikischmid

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 01:54:22 AM »
Awesome - can't wait to see how this turns out!!!
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iowarider

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 05:20:14 AM »
If it's possible I'd like the mods to be incremental so we do not need to do an all or nothing build. Maybe stages. Example,

Stage 1 could be tuned exhaust, K&N or other free flow filter and a reprogram to optimize. Something fairly low budget, and diy, from a kit.

Other stages could get into packages that you do in your shop, or the parts shipped to us or a willing local Bullet dealer. I know "local" when it comes to Bullet dealers is a relative term, but I think you will get the idea.  I probably have the wrong impression of your fireball program, but it seems, the bike needs to come to your shop for the work. Understandable, but not terribly accessible for some folk.

If I'm off base with how your fireball upgrade works I apologize in advance. I am really just thinking, I anyway, would like the build accessible in logical combinations of parts so I can do it some now some later as I get the money together.
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jartist

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 06:27:55 AM »
Wonderful news! Thank you in advance for all of the devotion and hard work! I would love to see a blog of your thoughts and progress in the r&d for this project as much as the protection of any trade secrets would allow.  I am especially curious what you discover in terms of the durability of the bottom end and how you plan to work around the hydraulic lifters.

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »
If it's possible I'd like the mods to be incremental so we do not need to do an all or nothing build. Maybe stages. Example,

Stage 1 could be tuned exhaust, K&N or other free flow filter and a reprogram to optimize. Something fairly low budget, and diy, from a kit.

Other stages could get into packages that you do in your shop, or the parts shipped to us or a willing local Bullet dealer. I know "local" when it comes to Bullet dealers is a relative term, but I think you will get the idea.  I probably have the wrong impression of your fireball program, but it seems, the bike needs to come to your shop for the work. Understandable, but not terribly accessible for some folk.

If I'm off base with how your fireball upgrade works I apologize in advance. I am really just thinking, I anyway, would like the build accessible in logical combinations of parts so I can do it some now some later as I get the money together.

Incremental build-up is a good idea, and we do that to a certain extent with the Fireball.
I will try to work that in.

Originally, the Fireball was always intended to be a parts kit for users to install, and it still is. But what happened was that quite a few of the people were not comfortable enough with doing their own builds, so we ended up doing them.
In the case of the UCE, where we *think* we might be able to use the existing bottom end, it might be more possible for the everyday owner to do just a top-end build.

We'll have to see about all of that.
A lot of it comes down to money vs power. If don't know what the customer base feels, regarding that. I mean, I could do a moderate power upgrade which doesn't really overstress anything too hard, and wouldn't cost near as much as a big power upgrade.

Here's a fictional example of what 'could' arise.
Let's say we find that the bottom end bearings aren't really up to a Fireball power level, but could withstand something more moderate, but still be faster. And without having to tear apart the bottom end and do a whole crank rebuild with new bearings, the cost could be a whole lot less, and be much easier for the end user to do.
This might be preferable to many.

Regarding the crank, I have heard pretty reliable rumors that the crank is only available as a complete assembly, and no rebuild parts are available from RE. This is not a real problem for us because we can make new crankpins and get main bearings and  rod bearing(and even rods), and rebuild it anyway. But maybe people don't want to pay for all that, ya know? Maybe they'd rather have a few less hp, and leave the bottom end alone. These things need to be considered.

So, there's a lot to think about.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 11:45:57 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 12:08:57 PM »
Wonderful news! Thank you in advance for all of the devotion and hard work! I would love to see a blog of your thoughts and progress in the r&d for this project as much as the protection of any trade secrets would allow.  I am especially curious what you discover in terms of the durability of the bottom end and how you plan to work around the hydraulic lifters.

We don't really have any "trade secrets". I suppose our biggest trade secret is that we do things the right way, without cutting corners, and we know how to do that. Everything we do is known technology. But we apply this technology correctly for what we are doing, and there's somewhat of an 'art' in that 'science'.

I saw some photos of the crank and flywheels yesterday. They look amazingly like the Iron Barrel flywheels. Some slight differences with the balance relief shapes. I think it's probably the same basic crank assembly, with a roller big-end bearing and a steel rod..
I did find out that there is no outer race on the big end roller. So, that's not so good. But the word on the street is that it's holding up anyway, and that it's actually the crankpin metal that is having the wear issues. But, they are lasting a decent amount of time.This could become a "line of demarcation" for us, because doing a bottom end job adds quite a lot of cost. Probably nearly doubling the cost, compared to if we just did a top-end power mod job.
With the iron barrel Bullet, we HAD to do the bottom end because is was too weak to really take any kind of power increase. But with the UCE, we may have enough room to use the existing bottom end, and still get good power. If we went 'all-out' for power increase, then yes, we'd be required to do the whole bottom end job.
Again, this comes down to where the popular price point might be for a job like this, along with the amount of work involved.

As for the hydraulic lifters, that's not a problem for us.  We know how to get higher revs out of hydraulic lifters. 
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

GreenRE

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 03:50:44 PM »
All the above, and :

1. Keep the E Start. It aint as ugly as in the iron barrel. This might require a better sprag and auto-decomp valve.
2. If you can, source a UCE 350 head. It will likely have narrower ports, may even have more metal to work with. Just a thought. 
3. Maybe you can address the ever perplexing 'clatter'.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2012, 08:40:41 PM »
I would prefer a moderate top end kit that leaves the bottom end alone.  Maybe even just an EFI/intake/exhaust upgrade package.  That wouldn't require any major mechancal swaps.  I don't intend to tear up any racetracks, I'd just like a little more power for extended freeway jaunts and when I add a sidecar.

Scott

wokka

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 08:53:30 PM »
All the power in the world isn't going to help if you just bounce off the redline in top gear at 90mph

I'd like (along with the power increase) a solution that lets you use it,
whether that be a way of shoe-horning in a 20 or 21 tooth front, or even a disc conversion with a smaller rear sprocket

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 12:31:30 AM »
I would prefer a moderate top end kit that leaves the bottom end alone.  Maybe even just an EFI/intake/exhaust upgrade package.  That wouldn't require any major mechancal swaps.  I don't intend to tear up any racetracks, I'd just like a little more power for extended freeway jaunts and when I add a sidecar.

Scott

Scott,
That would be the easiest, and of course I could come up with something in the way of a filter system, and there are already some free flow silencers out there, I think.
Apparently the existing EFI map is supposed to be sufficient to deal with that via the closed loop system, from what I've heard.
There might not even be much that I really need to get involved with in that kind of thing.

I have some other things in mind, but I really need to see what the ports look like before I put my foot in my mouth.
I found out that the throttle body diameter is supposed to be 30mm I.D.
IF that is correct, and the ports are somewhere similar in size, then i could do quite a bit with that without much enlarging. If the ports are way oversize like the AVL, then that wouldn't be nearly as optimal to deal with. So, it all depends.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:38:15 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 03:00:43 PM »
Ace, that's a very elegant suction and my hat is off to you.  It's always best to make the most of what you have before throwing displacement and extra fuel at it. 

Scooter Bob has reported that the flat top AVL piston has worked in the stock engine.  If the bottom end is up to the task a little compression bump seems within reach if you want it.

Scott

Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 03:51:30 PM »
Hello agian.    Knew it had to come, and glad to see the day is hear!    I watch the forum from the sidelines, but any of you who are long timers here will know that I opened this dialougue with ACE a few years back.    In the meantime due  to a combination of fiscal reality and geographic considerations, , I had to go to the darkside and re-entered riding with a used Honda Sabre Shadow that I was able to pick up locally  at such an attractive price that I couldn't not.  And I use it to commute on the highway 45 minutes each way.   I am loving riding again, and find the Sabre a perfectly acceptable bike, but my heart is still with the Bullet, and I am very interested to see that ACE may be breathing a little more highway capability into it.  I will watch with interest, and , when fortunes change, will look again at buying.  Oddly (and perhaps optiistically) there just aren't a lot of used UCEs  (the logical way to go with a project bike )on the market here in Canada..  I am not sure what that means: Maybe owners are so pleased they won't part with them.  Don't know .   Thanks ACE  : Nigel Ogston  rehere.  .Adr esusednkneha.

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 04:29:48 PM »
A little more info comes to light.
The ECU cuts off the fuel pump at 5500rpm.

This means that if we plan to keep costs down, we can keep the rpms under that point, so we don't have to buy a new ECU or Power Commander. Nor do we have to fiddle with the hydraulic lifters.
For a cost sensitive build, that would be the redline.

For higher rpms than that, we'd have to spend hundreds for an ECU change and new maps, or go to a carburetor. And we'd also have to do the lifters and the valve springs, and it would be more stress on the bottom end, and we might probably have to do cams to explot that rpm range.
If the aim is to stay under $1k budget, then I think it's best to work within the 5500rpm existing redline.

And, Welcome Back, Nigel!
 :)
.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info