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Author Topic: Ace UCE project.  (Read 32154 times)

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #345 on: March 23, 2013, 10:01:08 PM »
A pretty definitive statement with no word of explanation?

GSS,
It's purely his decision, for whatever reasons he has.
No explanation is necessary. It just comes down to his desires, which I respect, and I don't question.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:07:40 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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gremlin

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #346 on: March 24, 2013, 05:29:20 AM »
A pretty definitive statement with no word of explanation?

Firstly, let me acknowledge the terrific amount of development work involved in a project such as this.

Then, I'd like to say that the project has taken an unexpected turn. Perhaps it is the best way to solve the issue as seen by the developers - however - I disagree and therefore I'm out.

It really is that simple. 
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
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1 Thump

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #347 on: March 24, 2013, 05:44:13 AM »
Firstly, let me acknowledge the terrific amount of development work involved in a project such as this.

Then, I'd like to say that the project has taken an unexpected turn. Perhaps it is the best way to solve the issue as seen by the developers - however - I disagree and therefore I'm out.

It really is that simple. 

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your disagreement ?

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #348 on: March 24, 2013, 12:10:40 PM »
I think that it must have come from the custom valves adding cost. That seemed to be when it happened.

In any event, any reason that a person feels to not want this stuff is a good enough reason. Nobody should feel pressured to be wanting these things. It's just a choice people make. There will certainly be many more who won't do this modification.  That's the way these things are.

The man has made his decision, so let's leave it at that.

I'd also like to add that there have been numerous tests of intermediate stages that were tried along the way.
If someone doesn't want the full package, and is willing to accept some lesser amount of power, for a less costly price that includes the stock valves and less port work, or whatever, that is possible. It would have to be on an individual basis, by inquiry.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:59:02 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #349 on: March 24, 2013, 02:16:22 PM »
Okay, just for some fun, I'll post some flow-based estimates of what might be produced by some intermediate stage work.
These are ESTIMATES based on flow into the engine, and are not dyno tested results or anything like that. It's just what would be likely with the additional flow coming in.

Stock valves with the ACE valve job, on stock springs should yield "about" 2hp increase. No real porting, just some minor bowl blend.
Ace valves and valve spring package, with hi-lift rockers should yield about 5hp increase. No real porting, just some minor bowl blending.

So, there's a couple possibilities that could be looked at for smaller gains, which would obviously be lower cost than the full package with the porting job.

These estimates are based on pretty conservative numbers, which I extrapolated from the stock bike's performance numbers.
The stock bike is rated at 27.2hp at the engine. Divide that 27.2 into the max flow of the stock head, which is 136 cfm, and we get 5 cfm of flow for every horsepower it produces at the engine.  This is about the level of efficiency this engine produces in stock form. It takes 5 cfm of flow for it to make one hp.
So, if we then divide the max flow number for the ACE valve job(no porting), with the same stock valve lift as the stock bike has, which is 146 cfm, we get 29.2 hp at the engine, so that is a 2hp increase from JUST a valve job that doesn't even include new valves.
If we add the ACE valves/springs to allow higher lift, and our upcoming higher lift rockers, on our ACE valve job(no porting), we get 165 cfm max flow. Divide that by 5, and it comes out to 33 hp at the engine, which is  5.8 hp increase.  Almost 6hp. This is using the same level of efficiency of 5cfm per hp as the stock bike gives. We are not assuming that we are improving the efficiency in these estimates.
This seems to be in the same estimated general power output range as the upcoming Cafe Racer mentions in the articles recently written about it.

So, if you include some improvement from your free-flow exhaust and nice air filter into that equation, which seems to be around 2hp from those things, it adds up.
A 21 rear-wheel horsepower stock UCE would add about 2hp from the exhaust system and air filter, and estimate another 2hp from the ACE valve job, and that would then put that bike at an estimated 25hp at the rear wheel.  No porting.
That same 21 rear-wheel horsepower stock UCE with the higher lift kit and our valve job and valve/spring package would add estimated 5.8 horsepower to the 2hp from the exhaust kit, to put the rear wheel hp at an estimated 28.8 rwhp. No porting. Again, it's estimated to be similar to about what the Cafe Racer would be expected to have at the rear wheel, using their engine hp numbers as a guide.

This gives some general idea about things that could be done, which require less work, would cost less, and give a more modest power increase which might better suit some people.

Virtually every job we do is a custom job anyway, so we can accommodate.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 02:26:20 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

iron.head

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #350 on: March 24, 2013, 06:09:17 PM »
Hi ace.cafe

I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project! Can you not design new cams which can also accommodate the auto-decomp? How about the new set of cams/throttle body etc the Cafe Racer is rumored to come with?

Are we trying to go a little too cost effective with our UCE project?

I have been told by one local RE manager here that C5 in India initially came with a set of cams which would develop play and start making noise quite early and another set which was better than the old ones. This I came to know when I got the noisy cams replaced on my bike.

Also, I remember reading it somewhere on this thread that stock UCE 500 makes 19.8 hp at the wheel, but you have quoted 21 hp in your last post.


gremlin

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #351 on: March 24, 2013, 06:31:01 PM »
......I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project!...............

+2
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #352 on: March 24, 2013, 06:42:07 PM »
Hi ace.cafe

I am saddened by the fact that you guys are using the same stock cams and not making new ones for this project! Can you not design new cams which can also accommodate the auto-decomp? How about the new set of cams/throttle body etc the Cafe Racer is rumored to come with?

Are we trying to go a little too cost effective with our UCE project?

I have been told by one local RE manager here that C5 in India initially came with a set of cams which would develop play and start making noise quite early and another set which was better than the old ones. This I came to know when I got the noisy cams replaced on my bike.

Also, I remember reading it somewhere on this thread that stock UCE 500 makes 19.8 hp at the wheel, but you have quoted 21 hp in your last post.

Hi,
Well, the main thing to get is more power.

Yes, I know that we have seen 19.8hp at the wheel on the UCE, but there have been several dyno tests of various UCE bikes, and some have shown over 20hp, with one being right about 21hp. It really isn't a big issue, because the power gains will just add to whatever the bike previously had before modding, and it will likely vary some from bike to bike.
So, I didn't mean to make any statement about the UCE by using that one figure as a base power figure. If you add the same numbers to the base of 19.8hp at the rear wheel, the numbers will be 1.2 hp lower for that. I had to pick a number as a rwhp base for the stock bike. If you prefer to use 19.8 as that base, please adjust the final figures accordingly. These are estimates.

Regarding cams.
We have plans to increase the breathing via ratio rockers. This gives us the additional lift which will exploit the head work and can provide just as much power as if we had made cams. We have no plans to radically increase the maximum rpms, and expect to redline around 6000 rpm, or perhaps a little bit higher, and so we really do not perceive a need for longer duration in order to do that. We will get a little bit of duration increase between the .050" points which will effectively increase our breathing duration to some small extent from the rockers.
So, the point I'm making is that the rockers are taking the place of the cams in this case, and will cost less, and do the job, while allowing the auto-decompressor to remain in place.

I think we could design cams which would include the auto-decomp, but having them made is an expensive proposition. Particularly when the valve timing of the standard cams of the UCE already have the timing points and lobe centers approximately where we would want them anyway. What they really lack is lift, and the rocker kit can supply that.
In the event that the Cafe Racer cams and throttle body become available for separate purchase, we can certainly have a look at those and see if they can be used to add to our package.

We will pursue the 535 big-bore too, and will have a piston which will have sufficient reliefs in the crown to allow the higher lift, and also give perhaps just a little more compression too. That's probably worth a couple more hp.

With the ability to program the ECU to move the rev-limiter, we can utilize the slightly higher rev range which we plan, and get to 6000rpm+, which gives us some more revs to make hp, compared to the stock rev limit.

And this again comes down to some selection criteria. We are not currently making this to be a "race kit". That's something else. This is a street rod kit, which is not a full-out racer.

If we have people who want a full-out racer, that is certainly open for discussion, and we can comply with that, at higher cost and more time for development. We are not opposed to doing that.

So, let's talk about it. What do we want in cams that we are not getting with these rockers?
We have a resource to go to for cams, bit they'll be expensive and will take time.
Regarding the decomp, we could move the decomp to a manual decomp in the head if we prefer to eliminate the auto-decomp. Maybe you don't like the auto-decomp? We can change it.
And we could twin plug if people want that.
We can do a lot of stuff. Let's get the ideas out on the table.




« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 06:54:52 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

gremlin

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #353 on: March 24, 2013, 06:49:30 PM »
I think that it must have come from the custom valves adding cost. That seemed to be when it happened.........

Well ACE, since you seem to be calling me out on this....   I disagree with your plan to use exaggerated rocker geometry to obtain higher lift.

Aside from the extreme mechanical loads you will end up twisting into the head casting (through the rocker pivots) this will do little for the lack of overlap and scavenging at higher RPM's.

I was willing to let you have your campaign, and, not publicly torpedo you....  But when you started speaking for me you should have known I would correct the misperception.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


iron.head

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #354 on: March 24, 2013, 06:58:26 PM »
Hi ace.cafe

Good to know that we are open to more ideas and that cams will not act as a deterrent to performance. We can anyway borrow things from the cafe racer once parts become available for purchase(which will be soon after bike's launch in India). Are we not using the ACE CerMet/Moly Dri-Lube coated pistons for UCE?

Thanks
iron.head

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #355 on: March 24, 2013, 07:09:08 PM »
Well ACE, since you seem to be calling me out on this....   I disagree with your plan to use exaggerated rocker geometry to obtain higher lift.

Aside from the extreme mechanical loads you will end up twisting into the head casting (through the rocker pivots) this will do little for the lack of overlap and scavenging at higher RPM's.

I was willing to let you have your campaign, and, not publicly torpedo you....  But when you started speaking for me you should have known I would correct the misperception.

Sorry about the misperception.
I'm happy to discuss.

Regarding the loads on the head involved with the rocker systems, perhaps you should know that we have been testing kits like this on the weaker Iron Barrel head casting with similar rocker block system for over 6 months with very good results, and no effects to the head casting. And it's doing very well for power too. The better and stronger UCE head should be even better in this regard. We will test the package.

Regarding scavenging, I understand your concerns about that. I feel that the proposed plan will suffice for the small rpm increase that we have planned, along with the rest of the design. The time/area window during overlap will be increased, and our low-lift flow is higher. If I am in error in this judgment about having enough scavenge for the rpm limit selected, then we will see it during tests.

And again, if there is a demand to have cams, we can go there.
I was working to get where it needed to be, with the least further delay,with cost-effective results, with the easiest end-user installation.
I really hadn't anticipated any blowback on the rocker decision.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 07:39:38 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #356 on: March 24, 2013, 07:13:03 PM »
Hi ace.cafe

Good to know that we are open to more ideas and that cams will not act as a deterrent to performance. We can anyway borrow things from the cafe racer once parts become available for purchase(which will be soon after bike's launch in India). Are we not using the ACE CerMet/Moly Dri-Lube coated pistons for UCE?

Thanks
iron.head

Hi,
Yes, we will have a piston that is made for this application, and coatings will be available as always.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

b.sheets

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #357 on: March 24, 2013, 07:33:01 PM »
this is becoming a pretty exciting thread.

Ace, keep up the great work and thanks for giving options to everyone as to how far they want to take this...

IMO bring on all the upgrades you can. Let's make this thing do the ton... ;)
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REpozer

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #358 on: March 24, 2013, 10:09:11 PM »
Don't need no stinking valve lift with this nitrous kit.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NEX-15005/

28 HP?? Ha , ..maybe I can make a 100 HP at the wheel,... for a few seconds.
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kammersangerin

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #359 on: March 24, 2013, 10:20:59 PM »
Silly question Ace, but do you do this sort of mod for just REs or other bikes as well?