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Author Topic: Ace UCE project.  (Read 31781 times)

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #405 on: December 04, 2013, 11:33:47 AM »
It is true that the average flow numbers at stock left height is only about a percent more than the standard head.
However,  as Gremlin correctly points out, the flow dynamics in the running engine will be more biased toward the peak flow near the max lift because that's where the piston speeds are fastest, working to draw in the air the best.
But,  in a general way regarding this topic, I do agree that keeping the stock lift would severely limit the gains in flow and in power. However, having the compatibility with stock rockers and piston allows a budgeted build that could occur in stages, which may be important to some people who can't do it all at once.
And for anyone wanting to use our head with modified cams in the engine with stock rockers, there is the ability to do that too.

I would not expect any users wanting significant power increase to retain the stock valve lift on any performance mod to this engine, unless it is just an interim stage of a budget - constrained process.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:54:33 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #406 on: December 04, 2013, 04:18:15 PM »
Another little update.

Rocker progress report.
We are looking at three rocker options to present, and having them available for use with the head work.
The first will be just the stock rocker set as it comes from the factory. If the user just wants head work, and use the stock lift and the stock piston, or the flat top pistons for 535, then this will be the most basic option.
The second will be moderate ratio rockers of the stock style. Sort of like the Ace Shotgun Rockers which we will be releasing for the Iron Barrel engine. This will likely require our piston which will have some valve relief pockets in the crown to clear the valves when the piston goes over TDC. We may make a special 535 piston specifically for this, which will have the quench distance set to use with the stock(bored to 535) barrel, and the right compression and valve relief to use with this rocker set.
The third option is the Hi-Lift rocker set which we are already developing, and it is like our similar arrangement for the Ace GP Head for the Iron Barrel. It will feature new billet rocker boxes with shaft-type alloy roller rockers with a higher lift ratio. It will replace the rocker covers on the engine. This will lift the valves much higher, and definitely will require our piston with enough valve relief and compression increase to work with this system.
This will be a fairly expensive option for those who want extra power and are willing to spend what's necessary to get it. However, it is unique in the Bullet market, and Ace is the sole developer and supplier of roller rocker hi-ratio systems for the Royal Enfield. We will have it if you want it.We basically have decided to offer this roller rocker package across the entire Enfield model line-up from legacy to current models. It's a great upgrade in a much needed area of high lift.

The currently existing  UCE 535 pistons from others are flat tops without any valve relief, and they were made to use with stock valve lift, which is VERY minimal lift in the UCE. That's all fine and good for low lift builds, but we are going beyond that, and we'll have pistons for the applications all worked out.

While I don't have any pics right now of the UCE rocker package, I can show a representative photo of the similar package that we have put together for the Iron Barrel engine, on the Ace GP head. Those of you who have followed what we are doing with the iron Barrel engine may already have seen these pics, but I'm posting for those who might not have seen them.

Of course, the styling will be adjusted to suit the UCE head shape and style. I'm just showing the basic concept in this photo of the Iron Barrel system.
Please see attachment.


Will this work with the stock bottom end ?

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #407 on: December 04, 2013, 04:26:01 PM »
It will work.
How long the bottom end will hold up depends on a variety of things, and we'll do some testing to try to determine how long it will last.

With the type of bottom end which comes standard in the UCE, as long as there was good quality in the manufacture and assembly of the engine, it should last.
If they didn't make it very well, then it might not.
This is something that I cannot control, and is RE factory related.

We use similar systems in the Fireball, and they hold up very well.
So, it comes down to how good a job that RE does in making these things.

If people see fit to do additional bottom end upgrades for peace of mind, I can certainly understand that, and we would participate in any bottom end work that a buyer might desire, if he wants us to.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 04:29:53 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

gashousegorilla

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #408 on: December 04, 2013, 11:44:02 PM »
You can get more lift than that from "stock" cams ..... Right, GHG?  ;)

  Ah?...... YEAH!  Of course..... Hold that thought.



Another little update.

Rocker progress report.
We are looking at three rocker options to present, and having them available for use with the head work.
The first will be just the stock rocker set as it comes from the factory. If the user just wants head work, and use the stock lift and the stock piston, or the flat top pistons for 535, then this will be the most basic option.
The second will be moderate ratio rockers of the stock style. Sort of like the Ace Shotgun Rockers which we will be releasing for the Iron Barrel engine. This will likely require our piston which will have some valve relief pockets in the crown to clear the valves when the piston goes over TDC. We may make a special 535 piston specifically for this, which will have the quench distance set to use with the stock(bored to 535) barrel, and the right compression and valve relief to use with this rocker set.
The third option is the Hi-Lift rocker set which we are already developing, and it is like our similar arrangement for the Ace GP Head for the Iron Barrel. It will feature new billet rocker boxes with shaft-type alloy roller rockers with a higher lift ratio. It will replace the rocker covers on the engine. This will lift the valves much higher, and definitely will require our piston with enough valve relief and compression increase to work with this system.
This will be a fairly expensive option for those who want extra power and are willing to spend what's necessary to get it. However, it is unique in the Bullet market, and Ace is the sole developer and supplier of roller rocker hi-ratio systems for the Royal Enfield. We will have it if you want it.We basically have decided to offer this roller rocker package across the entire Enfield model line-up from legacy to current models. It's a great upgrade in a much needed area of high lift.

The currently existing  UCE 535 pistons from others are flat tops without any valve relief, and they were made to use with stock valve lift, which is VERY minimal lift in the UCE. That's all fine and good for low lift builds, but we are going beyond that, and we'll have pistons for the applications all worked out.

While I don't have any pics right now of the UCE rocker package, I can show a representative photo of the similar package that we have put together for the Iron Barrel engine, on the Ace GP head. Those of you who have followed what we are doing with the iron Barrel engine may already have seen these pics, but I'm posting for those who might not have seen them.

Of course, the styling will be adjusted to suit the UCE head shape and style. I'm just showing the basic concept in this photo of the Iron Barrel system.
Please see attachment.


  Beautiful Job on those rockers Ace !  Thats an amazing piece of machining  :)
An thaibhsí atá rattling ag an doras agus tá sé an diabhal sa chathaoir.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #409 on: December 05, 2013, 12:02:03 AM »
Ace,

Looking at the pics, it  looks like the block that supports the rockers bolts on where originally the cover bolted on.  Is that the way it is?  Was that so you could get a new pivot axis for the rockers?

Scott

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #410 on: December 05, 2013, 12:38:07 AM »
  Ah?...... YEAH!  Of course..... Hold that thought.



  Beautiful Job on those rockers Ace !  Thats an amazing piece of machining  :)

Thanks GHG!
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #411 on: December 05, 2013, 12:44:16 AM »
Ace,

Looking at the pics, it  looks like the block that supports the rockers bolts on where originally the cover bolted on.  Is that the way it is?  Was that so you could get a new pivot axis for the rockers?

Scott
Hi Scott,
Yes, that's it.
We use all the available bolt holes for the rocker covers and rocker blocks to hold the base plates on to the head. This avoids any extra machining or drilling/tapping the head for this mod, and in fact the one we make for the UCE will bolt right on to any UCE head, whether it has our port and valve gear, or not.

The rocker shaft bolts to the base plate, and holds the rocker at the right pivot height and relationship for the rocker geometry needed for the new roller rockers which sit a bit higher over the valve, due to the diameter of the roller.

The cover plate has its own set of holes/bolts which mate with the bottom plate, and the pair of plates form a "clamshell" clamp on both ends of the rocker shaft, in addition to the bolts holding the ends of the rocker shaft. Tight fit.
Plenty strong.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 12:51:36 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Roeland

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #412 on: December 05, 2013, 04:20:01 PM »
Ace, I don't know how many orders you got up to date but I hope I'm number one? Can't wait to get this - any estimated figures on the "all" package?

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #413 on: December 05, 2013, 04:30:55 PM »
Ace, I don't know how many orders you got up to date but I hope I'm number one? Can't wait to get this - any estimated figures on the "all" package?

Hi Roeland,
You will have your choice of the rocker packages, depending on what limits you decide to put on the budget. The port will be the same, and so will the valve gear, and the installed height at the valve tip. The differences will come by how much you decide to lift the valve with the rocker package you decide upon, and the piston necessary to handle it.

These rocker packages will need different piston crowns, to suit the amount of lift ratio. The higher the lift ratio, the deeper the valve reliefs on the piston crown must be, and also the compression ratio must be different to handle the change in inlet valve closing timing which is affected by the lift ratio. We'll have it all worked out in packages that will work together.

As for the waiting time, it will be a while. Very little work progresses during the holiday season, and so I think it's best to settle back and wait till it's done.

I won't have prices on the hi-lift roller rocker box arrangement for a while yet because it is in development, but they will be expensive. This is not a cheap thing to produce in small quantity, and I'm working some of the hottest talent in the US to get this stuff done. I don't want to scare you away from it, but the Iron Barrel version of these rockers was north of $1k, just for the package of roller rockers and custom billet aluminum boxes.
The moderate ratio versions of the standard style rockers will be much more budget-friendly, but not as much lift. They'll bolt on just like the stock rockers do.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 04:39:51 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Roeland

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #414 on: December 05, 2013, 04:37:43 PM »
ok

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #415 on: December 06, 2013, 05:05:09 PM »
In case anybody is interested in why we are using the rockers for our lift increase, we have several reasons, depending on the application.

Of course, there are two ways to increase valve lift, and we are very familiar with both types, and have used both methods successfully in the past. The 2 methods are increasing the lift at the cam lobe, and increasing the lift at the valve via the rocker. In both systems, the added lift will incur an increase in spring pressure(load), and also increase in accelerations(speeds) of the parts being lifted to a higher lift over the same periods of time.

First, in keeping with our general theme of easy installation of a performance kit on the top end of the engine,  by using the rockers to increase lift, we keep the lift increase on the head, so the user is not required to enter the cam chest and deal with changing cams which some users might feel is too "complicated" for them to want to do. Even with experienced users, it is possible to get the installation wrong if they don't pay close enough attention. So, this simplifies the whole matter, especially for those users who have little experience in engine building. One of our goals is to have the easiest installation for the user.

Secondly, it allows the use of the stock cams which have the auto-decompressor built into the exhaust cam. We want to keep this function right where it is, so that people may have the factory-supplied protection of their sprag starter system, as the factory intended. We understand that this can also be done with a modified cam too, but it complicates manufacture.

Thirdly, it is typically less expensive to build rockers than it is to have custom cams ground, so we expect a cost benefit to keep the cost of the kit lower, or provide us extra "room" to include other features in the kit at a similar cost level.

Fourth, on a performance level, adding the lift ratio at the rockers allows the accelerations of all the parts on the cam/lifter/pushrod side of the valve train to operate at the same rates as they would in a stock engine over the entire rpm range. The only increase in accelerations of parts in this type of system comes at the end of the rocker arm on the valve tip side(and the valve and valve spring stack), which is increased in speed when providing the lift increase from the rocker. Since our Ace valve train is engineered with the lighter parts than stock, and has the advanced beehive spring system for keeping spring surge and harmonics under control, we easily control these moving parts on the valve side of the rocker. By keeping the accelerations/speeds of these heavy parts such as pushrods and lifters at the same speed as stock, this helps keep the inertia of these masses under control, leading to easier controllability of the valve train, and this is more likely to provide better stability and less deflection, resulting in more accurate translation of the cam profile to the valve.

With the lift increase at the cam lobe alone, all of the parts on the cam/lifter/pushrod side of the valve train are subjected to increased accelerations, also along with the parts on the valve/spring stack side. Not that this is necessarily "bad", but it is a fact regarding the comparisons between these two lift increasing methods.

Typical engineering practice in modern pushrod engines distributes the lift percentages by about 2/3 of the lift supplied by the cam lobe, and 1/3 supplied by the rocker ratio. You will find ratio rocker systems in the vast majority of all OEM or performance pushrod engines today. It is certainly not a rarity, or unusual in any respect.
So, we see it as a viable tool in our toolbox to use to achieve our goals.

Regarding using cams to do the lifting, we have no quarrel with that either, and we have used that method in the Iron Barrel Fireball package to very good effect. We had the cams ground by a cam manufacturer according to our specifications, limited it to a fairly modest increase, and observed the results over time, before attempting to increase lift any further. When  we did make the move to higher lift, we then moved to using ratio rockers to augment the lift at the lobe. And our systems for that engine distribute the lift increases at approximately the 2/3 lobe and 1/3 rocker relationship which I mentioned earlier, for all the reasons I previously mentioned.

It's all just tools toward achieving an end. It's not that there are "camps" which  say "lobe", and other "camps" that say "rocker". They all play together, and proper engineering uses these tools to make the end user happy with the outcome. "There's more than one way to skin a cat". You can use all lobe, or you can use all rocker, or your desired combination of both, and get good end results from your lift increase as long as the rest of the valve train is up to the task.
 I like cams, and I like rockers too. They are both important parts of the valve train. Most of all, I like to get good results by using the right methods and practices to make people happy with the performance of their engines.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:19:54 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #416 on: December 06, 2013, 06:04:20 PM »
Thanks for the details Ace.

Scott

Roeland

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #417 on: December 09, 2013, 05:23:28 AM »
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland

ScooterBob

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #418 on: December 09, 2013, 10:28:50 AM »
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland
I hear tell that the Gashouse Gorilla has some VERY nice adjustable ones .................
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace UCE project.
« Reply #419 on: December 09, 2013, 01:18:05 PM »
ACe,

Will the actual push rods remain standard?

Regards

Roeland
Probably they will.
If there is a change, I will notify about the change and provide availability of the new ones.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info