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Author Topic: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)  (Read 6104 times)

dampking

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Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« on: March 31, 2012, 11:36:13 AM »
Hi Guys!!

I was going through ACE Fireball videos and other articles and was wondering if there is any way to boost AVL 500's performance. I mean something similar, since I don't have that much technical knowledge so I thought of asking you all RE Gurus :)


Thanks in Advance :)

-San

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 12:07:03 PM »
Here is a 'cut and paste' of some info I keep handy when people ask about tuning the AVL:
 I tried many different cams, the 'S' type were the only ones to give a free revving engine.
 The Hitchcocks kit is loosely based on a machine they asked me to 'see what I could do with'. I shortened the cylinder barrel by 2mm from the bottom, also the bottom of the liner, or it fouls the flywheels. I machined 2mm off the outside edge of the piston crown, to keep the squish area stock, leaving the central 64mm diameter untouched to raise compression from 8.5:1 to 9.2:1. The steel insert in the exhaust port was opened up by 2mm diameter, the edges of the valve heads were chamfered for a little more clearence over the piston on the overlap. 'Classic Bullet' competition double valve springs were fitted, as were Redditch 'S' cams, timed to the marks. Out of all the cams I tried, these were the only ones I could exceed 6,000 rpm with - nearly 7,000 rpm being recorded.
 For ignition I had a custom made CDI box with an extra 4 degrees retarded to prevent kickback and give better idling, but also 4 degrees more advance at high engine speeds.
 A 36 mm Amal MK II with 290 main jet was fitted using a Honda CB 500 T [1977 model] inlet manifold. The stud holes of the manifold had to be enlarged a little to fit over the AVL head studs.
 With a 'Goldie' silencer, I saw 32 bhp at the rear wheel. With a very noisy exhaust I had 33.5 bhp and 103 mph top speed in top gear on the road, it pulled 95 mph in 4th gear, approaching 7,000 rpm, changing to top and laying flat on the tank gave the 103 mph top speed in two directions. The cycle parts were all standard, even the handlebar mirrors were stilll fitted.
 To fit the cams mentioned, you have to lose the exhaust valve lifter, with the shortened cylinder barrel, the standard pushrods will still reach despite the cam followers sitting lower than before. I should still have the valve timing figures somewhere, but as stated S type cams were fitted, timed to the marks
The pickup for the ignition is fixed by two dowels around the bolt holes. I filed off the dowels and slotted the bolt holes whilst experimenting, this will give an adjustment range of about 4 degrees at best
 Hope this helps,
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 02:00:18 PM »
I guess I will need a specialist for this type of work. Here in india, I don't know many who can do this type of work, so I think I won't risk it because mechanics with less amount of knowledge on this might kill my bike's engine. Also, using a 535 on my AVL will help in any way? the high compression 535 Bore Kit I mean.

Also, at moment I can't afford a 36mm MK II. So if I use 32mm Flat Slide (TM32 I mean), will it help much?

Also, about the cams! I don't know from where I can get the "Redditch 'S' cams" but using other performance cams will help in this case?

-San

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »
Hi San,
 The Redditch 'S' cams were the most important single item where a boost in performance is concearned. I tested about half a dozen different cam types and only put the 'S' cams in at the end, as I had tried everything else to hand with no luck and they were lying around, so I put them in. They transformed it all completely. I had a small batch of 'S' profile cams made and sold every set, but have not had enough interest to warrant ordering another batch, also they were quite expensive to obtain in small numbers. I doubt if any other cams will help much, but you could try. Also, any 'better than standard' carb should help a bit.
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 03:29:15 PM »
Thanks again! For now, I will try for a TM32. Have a Keihin, a friend was using it but he gave it to me but I think I will save up and go for the TM32. 19T Sprocket and maybe some stuff from Hitchcocks.

Stuff like ELECTRA (X) - TCI UNIT - I think that works with any AVL since mine is 500 too.

Ice

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 10:37:59 PM »
 Here is a link to an article on a mod for the UCAL carb that will help a bit as will a low air filter and low restriction silencer. of course adding either of both of the those will require a change in the carbs jetting.

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/automotive-technology/crisp-punch-ported-throttle-slide-cv-carb-9399/

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/automotive-technology/crisp-punch-ported-throttle-slide-cv-carb-9399/
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:16:12 AM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 08:57:47 PM »
I was going through the Amal Carbs listen in Hitchcock site. I found a series of carbs which are 36mm.

Are you talking about these?

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/amal_carburettors/complete/mk2_concentric#part_5055

If yes, then can you tell me which ones are recommended for our AVLs

This?

AM/2036/300    CARBURETTOR, CONCENTRIC, MK2, R/H, 36mm, 4 STROKE

or this?

AM/2036/301    CARBURETTOR, CONCENTRIC, MK2, L/H, 36mm, 4 STROKE


Regards,
Sanket

GreenRE

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 01:03:30 AM »
I was going through the Amal Carbs listen in Hitchcock site. I found a series of carbs which are 36mm.

Are you talking about these?

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/amal_carburettors/complete/mk2_concentric#part_5055

If yes, then can you tell me which ones are recommended for our AVLs

This?

AM/2036/300    CARBURETTOR, CONCENTRIC, MK2, R/H, 36mm, 4 STROKE

or this?

AM/2036/301    CARBURETTOR, CONCENTRIC, MK2, L/H, 36mm, 4 STROKE


Regards,
Sanket

Sanket

Those carbs will only help with wide open throttle, and in fact you will most likely end up losing low end torque. If you go through ACE's postings he has explains this better than I ever can i.e. it has too large of an intake port. The large intake port does not flow well at low rpm's...and the high rpm's will hurt the bottom end unless you beef it up...Free flowing air filter and exhaust will work well..the 30 mm flat slide has a big fan following here in the US too...Now for a radical idea: If you can find a head from the 350 cc AVL engine which will hopefully have a smaller intake port....that just might be the ticket...

Good luck !

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 01:27:26 AM »
Sanket

Those carbs will only help with wide open throttle, and in fact you will most likely end up losing low end torque. If you go through ACE's postings he has explains this better than I ever can i.e. it has too large of an intake port. The large intake port does not flow well at low rpm's...and the high rpm's will hurt the bottom end unless you beef it up...Free flowing air filter and exhaust will work well..the 30 mm flat slide has a big fan following here in the US too...Now for a radical idea: If you can find a head from the 350 cc AVL engine which will hopefully have a smaller intake port....that just might be the ticket...

Good luck !

Thanks for the info :)

Ice

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 09:27:54 PM »
Me, I would modify in stages or levels.

 The first level would be the mods my friend Bill Harris did in evolving his ElextraX  based scrambler. This level of modification gives gives the best bang for the buck IMHO.  After this level, the costs for additional gains go up steep and fast .
(Reducing weight helps liven thing up as well.)



 The low restriction air filter and exhaust let more air in and spent gasses out.
Note the silencer location; the exhaust note is devoid of high frequency sounds with only the pleasant low frequency Thump-Thump-Thump- ThAaaUuuuummp,( 1st gear)
Thaaauuump, ( 2nd gear) Thuuuuump delivered from the tail pipe   8)

 The UCAL CV 29 was an alright carb but the 30mm flat slide gave him vastly improved throttle response at all revs and helps make more hp's

 *About the 30mm PKW that Bill is using on his Scrambler and my son is using on his Iron Barrel. The throat is oval, not round. It is 28mm diameter on the bottom portion tapering to 30mm on the upper portion. This gives good manifold vacuum for good fuel atomization and inlet tract velocity and cylinder fill at all revs.*

 Along with those mods would be an ignition system mod to make sure as much fuel air as possible was being being turned into power and for for fuel economy.
 On an Euro/US spec ElectraX's a performance TCI would be in order. On domestic Indian market AVL's with a "delco" ( a.k.a. distributor in the US)  I would go with a Power Arc ignition.

 Assuming all is assembled properly jetted and tuned correctly, as Bills Bullet is, there will be no problem pulling away from and out running stock Bullets. Fuel economy would be that same or slightly improved except when running hard and fast, then it will dip while making and using the extra HP's of course.

 Bills Scrambler also has the factory 18 tooth counter shaft sprocket while my Iron Barrel has the 17 tooth sprocket and a lessened restriction exhaust. You would think that my Bullet should accelerate quicker than his but Oh no it does not. His Bullet is both quicker to accelerate to a higher safe cruising speed and has a faster final top speed.

 Me,I would enjoy the easy starting, steady tick over mild increase in performance and all around Bullet goodness of that set up while saving for the next level; Big bore kit and cams.

 This is where the experience of those AVL owners who have gone big bore is needed.





« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 09:32:49 PM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 11:42:06 PM »
Now that's one NEAT bike! :)

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 12:24:25 PM »
Sanket

Those carbs will only help with wide open throttle, and in fact you will most likely end up losing low end torque. If you go through ACE's postings he has explains this better than I ever can i.e. it has too large of an intake port. The large intake port does not flow well at low rpm's...and the high rpm's will hurt the bottom end unless you beef it up...Free flowing air filter and exhaust will work well..the 30 mm flat slide has a big fan following here in the US too...Now for a radical idea: If you can find a head from the 350 cc AVL engine which will hopefully have a smaller intake port....that just might be the ticket...

Good luck !
TThere are left and right versions of the Amals, I fitted a right for decent access to the adjuster screws. The machine I tuned had shedloads of torque with the big carb, beating the standard setup from idle to flat out.
 A big carb on an engine set up for one will give good performance throughout the rev range., with no flat spots.
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 06:35:09 PM »
So I am assuming that using any other racing cam for electra X will not give results good as yours. Also, using the setup that you had in your bike, will it effect the bike in any negative way? I mean churning out so much horses from the AVL will lead to any kind of engine seizure?

Well.. I am really inspired by what you did on an AVL and will surely try my level best to get there. OFC! Its an awesome feeling! Its really nice to push a single 500 till such extents. I think in few months I will be able to get the 36mm carb, tho I will use a 33mm CV carb for most of my rides. It's decent and also saves money :P

For certain occasions, I believe the Amal 36mm will be really good. In India its really hard to drive through regular traffic, it just gets annoying. So I will have 2 carb options open for me and when I am all set to do the modifications you have mentioned, I will let you know, maybe I will require some more help from your end regarding the "engine compression" part. I have a friend who blew up a dozen of 535 Cast Iron pistons for too much compression. It literally scares me.!

Thanks a ton for all the information once again :)

Regards,

Sanket

basanti

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2012, 02:00:08 PM »
Here is my 2008 AVL Machismo which I've been working on little  by little by little over the years. Used to be regular here until I got banned for no reason. I think it had to do something with our Indian servers. Anyway, I found out I can login again so here is an update. So far these are the mods done:


535cc JE forged piston running at 9.1:1 compression ratio
Mikuni TM36 carburetor
Bullet Whisperer's "S" cams
Anthony's dry clutch plates running in our own belt drive primary
Upgraded TCI ignition box with more retard and advance (BW)
Battery eliminator from Hitchcock's
Electronic Tachometer
Head ported to match the 36 carb
Combustion chamber reshaped
Crank lightened
Rockers lightened
Chassis reinforced here and there
CNC Triple tree and fork brace out billet 6061 T6 aluminum made by your truly
Tapered roller bearings in the head and swing arm pivot.
Tuned inlet velocity stack made by yours truly out of billet aluminum
Tuned header with megaphone exhaust
Steel braided front brake line with EBC HH brake pads
35mm Tommaselli adjustable clip-ons and quick throttle
18" alloy rims
T19 front sprocket
Oil cooler from Pulsar 220
And way too much time researching, fabricating and getting the work done!!!!

The bike is a pussycat in traffic (yes I do ride it to work in Mumbai traffic also) with full on torque right off idle and pulling hard all the way to 6700 rpm.  It is proper scary doing  second gear power wheelies without me trying to. Super fun to ride!!! I've taken it to the track in Chennai twice and although the engine was proper fun, need to work  on handling/suspension.

You want some info on modding the AVL? Here is some of my experience:

I've tried the 30mm, 32mm, 34mm and 36mm flatslides on my bike. IMHO, for a stock head, the Mikuni TM32 was much stronger every where than the 30mm PKW slide I got from CMW. The TM36 was super strong in the mid to higher rpms but below 2200 rpm it was a little bit weaker than the 32, but still very ridable in traffic). That was before I ported the head to match the 36mm cab and modded the combustion chamber. Then the 36 was super strong right off idle all the way till the engine exploded :) heh heh heh, just kidding. Here is the article I came across on the head job which I carried out and can post pics if anyone is interested. Everything else being equal, This made a huge difference in torque.

victorylibrary.com/mopar/chamber-tech-c.htm

I've tried a bunch of cams and BW's "S" cams made all the difference in the world. They make the engine run smooth and full on torque all the way from idle till the 6700rpm (in 4th gear) I've dared to pulled the engine to. Stock cast iron cams perform way better than the AVL cams. Hitchcock's Performance cams for the AVL were a waste of money. After I get the engine back together again, I'm gonna borrow a friend's  Magnum cams and see what the difference is. The Magnum cams have 0.5mm higher lift than the "S" cams, apart from a few degrees difference in timing figures.

To answer your question if the engine is reliable for all this modification? The answer is no. I've had to rebuild the big end at 12k km then again at 22k km and then again at 24k km. Of course riding the bike hard to see its performance and being a work in progress with sometimes too much advance or sometimes too lean carburation etc could also have contributed to an already very iffy situation. The last time was totally my fault cuz I asked my mechanic to make an outer race for the big end roller bearing (like what H sells and claims is the problem with AVL big end failures). He obviously didn't do a decent job and after 2k kms its failed again. Another issue with revving the AVL so high is the front and rear of the piston gets scored a lot. I'm guessing its because of the shorter con rod this engine comes with? So I'm going to rebuild the engine with the big end roller bearing and forged con rod for the cast iron engine in my AVL. The con rod is 14.5mm longer, so we're going to have to deal with that. But the bottom line is the material from the factory is utter sh*t and needs to be replaced. Lesson learnt: you want a quality machine, you have to get the quality parts.

Then you have issues with the clutch....  Dear God, I'm going to stop now.


dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2012, 02:51:32 PM »
Interesting Stuff :)

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 04:17:32 AM »
UPDATE!!

I got a new Mikuni VM34 Carb for my bike. Got that delivered today! Megaphone installed long back, UNI Air filter ready for use. I got the jetting specs for AVL 500 (VM34 carb Mikuni) once everything is set... I will install them.

Also, I think its nearly impossible for me to get the "S" Cams as VERY less amount of people in here heard about these. So I will work on this later.. maybe just try out other alternatives.

Once I am done with these modifications, I will work on the compression. Probably get new 535 pistons for my bike. But these upgrades will take some time as I need to save up pretty much for other things.

Thanks to everyone for all the info, especially Basanti and BW! :)

-Sanket


Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2012, 01:02:35 PM »
I could probably get more 'S' cams made, the problem is they are not cheap to produce in small numbers, so a lot of money gets tied up whilst waiting to sell them all in order to recoup the outlay and a [small] profit. I had 6 sets made a couple of years back and sold them all, but apart from the odd enquiry, I have not seen enough potential demand for a second batch to be produced. These cams work very well, but not everyone who owns a machine already in the minority, where Bullets are concearned [AVL] wants to make these changes, so it's just lack of demand / high production costs that put the spanner in the works for this one.
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2012, 04:21:27 PM »
I totally agree with you! :)

By the way.. If I have any small doubts on these mentioned performance mods then.. can I contact you via personal messages?

-Sanket

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2012, 05:00:09 PM »
Hi Sanket,
 No problem, if you think I can help, ask away !
 B.W.

REpozer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2012, 12:23:39 AM »
Food for thought.

Best performance mod I made ,..was to loose 20 lbs. I understand that is not an option for everyone.

I was able to hit 80 mph (indicated) on a slight incline.
 Before the weight lose, I as only able to achieve 76 mph.
2008 AVL Classic Bullet in British Racing Green
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dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2012, 01:04:13 PM »
Yes, weight reduction helps a lot. By the way..what do I remove from my bike? I don't use the E Starter.. So planning to remove the entire assembly. After that what all do I remove?

I would love to get some weight off my bike :D


-Sanket

REpozer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2012, 09:32:48 PM »
I didn't remove anything from the motorcycle. I ate less , and lost weight. :D
2008 AVL Classic Bullet in British Racing Green
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dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 12:59:54 PM »
lol...

tooseevee

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 02:20:27 PM »
I didn't remove anything from the motorcycle. I ate less , and lost weight. :D

           I weigh 140 pounds. I can't wait for the day when I can finally get the '08 Classic into 5th gear once in a while (right now she's got 369 miles) & do some REAL plug chops & get the old Mikuni dialed in the way it oughta be. I just gotta live long enough & get enough rainless days when I don't hafta cut friggin' grass. 
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 08:14:42 PM »
140 is pretty good. I am somewhere near that weight range. Maybe a bit lesser than 140 pounds. Few days back I went for a short trip and had managed to do 88mph on a straight flat. Thanks to the "Rollie Free" position (minus the "rollie free outfit :P). I think the actual speed would be around 80~82mph.

By the way what Mikuni  carb you are planning to use? :)

-Sanket

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2012, 02:32:19 PM »
Finally my VM34 is installed! Loving the round slides! Next goal will be the porting work and compression work :)

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2012, 03:34:41 AM »
I think egli said you can make any carb work.  Ask Ace what carb he runs on his Bullet.  Yeah thats right a properly setup factory micarb.  Save your money and buy gas and tires.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2012, 03:08:19 PM »
Egli? He's a legend!

Also I think that Ace is running a TM32 instead of VM28 on his Fireball. VM28 would do good justice to my AVL but I want to make it different. Will be a powerhouse for sure!

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2012, 07:12:37 PM »
Hi Dampking,
 Here is a pic of the piston crown mod I made, as discussed in the P.M.'s, which I couldn't add pictures to.
 B.W.

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2012, 04:38:54 AM »
Thanks a Ton BW!

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2014, 12:24:28 PM »
Happiness!!


Thanks a Ton Paul!

So finally this thread got revived, instead of making a new thread, thought of updating it here.

Next stage will be sourcing new UCE crank - Looks like the UCE motors use same AVL crank and con-rod with hardened outer race. So plonking the UCE con-rod on my AVL crank, new block+ Piston + BW's crown mod and then these cams + a 19T front sprocket. It's going to take another 2 month's time as I have to visit my GF this month but all's good. Been dying to get these cams!! :D
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 12:29:22 PM by dampking »

ace.cafe

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2014, 01:11:43 PM »
How did you determine that the UCE rod has an outer bearing race in it?
From the reports that I have read, they say it does not have one.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

dampking

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2014, 01:13:16 PM »
A friend who swapped con-rod said that they do? I was assuming that he was right. But if he isn't then no other go :( But even with no outer race do you think UCE con-rods are better than AVLs?


-Sanket

ace.cafe

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2014, 01:18:57 PM »
A friend who swapped con-rod said that they do? I was assuming that he was right. But if he isn't then no other go :( But even with no outer race do you think UCE con-rods are better than AVLs?


-Sanket
As far as I know, they are the same rods for AVL and UCE.
I don't know if the new production is better, or not.

And these stories about having a race, or no race, keep coming up. It's very confusing.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2014, 01:48:17 PM »
I know :( keeps giving me hopes :(

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2014, 10:24:38 AM »
Next stage will be sourcing new UCE crank - Looks like the UCE motors use same AVL crank and con-rod with hardened outer race.

Why don't you verify the thing people claim to be true by spending some time at the workshop of practically checking the actual parts. I have seem many people buy part assuming what 'someone' said was correct only to realize the truth later after the expensive rebuilds.

I am using the original AVL con-rod and it holding  up pretty good despite the occasional rev madness i get into :) However, 90% of the time the bike is kept within reasonable revs (RPM<5500) thru the gears . It maybe advisable to actually go for a proper performance part from ACE of Hitchcock in case you are looking to change the original ones.

There is another important aspect to street performance - reliability. And that comes from quality parts which can take the additional loading after a performance build. I would suggest investing in the internals of good quality for the build and then you can keep upgrading the other 'bolt on' parts over a period of time

Also, it maybe advisable to have new cam followers installed with the new cams as I understand your current engine prob need a replacement anyway.

Cheers !!

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2014, 12:53:53 PM »
I was actually talking to Vivek and he said that UCE con-rods are slightly better so we talked about the outer race too. I will go to indiMotard and see if they got any spare UCE-Con-rod :)

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2014, 02:43:49 PM »
I was actually talking to Vivek and he said that UCE con-rods are slightly better so we talked about the outer race too. I will go to indiMotard and see if they got any spare UCE-Con-rod :)

I think it maybe a case of assuming that one is better than the other based on people's opinion. Th only way to check is to actually go along the engineering evaluation of the both. Ideally get a good part from Hitchcock or Ace to get the performance you are looking for.

I would recommend that as you have been saving up for quite some time for good parts, so don't leave the most important one out.

Cheers!

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2014, 09:56:36 AM »
So we split the cases finally. Everything looks fine just that the Big end bearings gave up and the ball bearings were lying inside the case. That was pretty scary!

Here's some photos of the piston, barrel - I was actually expecting a dirtier internal than this :D

P.S - Asbo 12 in the making! Thank you Paul!

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2014, 09:59:48 AM »
More photos -

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2014, 10:01:18 AM »
Few more -

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2014, 10:02:44 AM »
Barrel close look -

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2014, 10:55:08 AM »
Paul, I just got the piston shaved from top, the outer 20mm but it's sort of a dome as the outer edge was shaved down by 2mm but as we went closer to the center 64mm it was not exactly 2mm, sort of a slope there.

You think this will work or harm the build in any way? I was talking to my friend he said this might work? he was also saying that if valves come in contact then we can make relief points making sure no contact. So do you think this is fine or do I just re-shave the entire 20mm FLAT Down by 2mm.


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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2014, 12:39:07 PM »
Hi Sanket, it is VITAL that this area of the piston crown is machined FLAT looking inwards radially for a distance of 10mm, otherwise the squish are will not do its' job and the piston crown will probably hit the head at the squish face. Whatever amount was [or is to be] removed from the underside of the cylinder barrel and base of the liner, in my case 2mm was removed, is what also needs to be removed depth wise  from this radial cut. I reduced the head diameters of the valves by about 0.5mm and bevelled the faces of them to give more piston clearance when I was experimenting with various cams and timings, but I doubt you really need to do this unless you want the extra clearance in any case. My piston modification is pictured:
 [Sorry for the rather poor quality of the pictures]
 B.W.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 12:42:34 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2014, 01:42:40 PM »
Thats all I wanted to know Paul. Thanks :)

I will do as you mentioned.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2014, 07:05:40 AM »
So you have finally cut up the old piston to go ASBO after all ! I Suggest new rings for the piston !! So i guess i'll be seeing you doing 100Mph on the airport road soon  ;)

All the best !!

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2014, 07:33:45 AM »
Yes, I am really excited about all this. I am working on the old piston will try to source a new piston with same specs so that I can do the same thing but go hard on it. Hopefully it'll be an Asbo! :D

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2014, 12:16:32 PM »
If you have the resources, you can probably get the Hitchcock's 535 high compression piston for the AVL. More cc and higher comp as well !

Or alternately if BW can suggest alternate piston which can be used - that will be even more cool !

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2014, 01:17:58 PM »
If you have the resources, you can probably get the Hitchcock's 535 high compression piston for the AVL. More cc and higher comp as well !..........

You could go this route, but there are lots of horror stories about people seizing their motor with this piston due to not setting the barrel height correctly.  It is also quite heavy for a forged piston and puts added stress on the bottom end.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2014, 01:52:07 PM »
For most affordable results, do the BW piston mod, the way he specifies it to be. It's the "best bang for the buck".

However, for those with more resources....
The world has changed.
Just use the flat top piston, and this ACE big-valve modified chamber for improved combustion efficiency, 9.8:1 compression ratio, proper squish, better flow, and more power .
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 02:04:36 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2014, 08:07:53 PM »
For most affordable results, do the BW piston mod, the way he specifies it to be. It's the "best bang for the buck".

However, for those with more resources....
The world has changed.
Just use the flat top piston, and this ACE big-valve modified chamber for improved combustion efficiency, 9.8:1 compression ratio, proper squish, better flow, and more power .


            Oh, how purdy it is   :) ;) ;D
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2014, 01:11:58 AM »
how much does a head like that run?

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2014, 03:58:51 AM »
how much does a head like that run?
PM sent.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2014, 01:40:11 PM »
Okay, so let's review.
Very good reports about the "S Cams".
Very good reports about the TM32 carb.
DanB reports getting 6000 rpm in top, which should be right about The Ton.

Tooseevee reports he's very happy with the Ace head work(porting/big valves/Ace beehive spring package/combustion chamber mod). He also has the TM32 and Ace Air Canister filter system. Stock cams.

I don't know if anybody is using the 535 flattop piston yet.

And let's not forget that the Ace Roller Rocker High Ratio system that we developed for the Big Head can work in the AVL head too. And that kit can take higher lift cams too(up to .355"/9mm lobe lift) such as the Ace Magnum cams for even more lift up to .510" max lift.

If somebody puts all of that together, we're looking at a VERY potent street Bullet package!
All the pieces are available. It just takes somebody who wants to put it all together.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 02:47:08 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2014, 06:21:59 PM »
Interesting, who has the necessary cojones/$$$/time to take this on? If my next project goes AVL instead of Big Head I will be sorely tempted.

Regards,

A.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2014, 06:35:04 PM »
Interesting, who has the necessary cojones/$$$/time to take this on? If my next project goes AVL instead of Big Head I will be sorely tempted.

Regards,

A.

I would say that in a "full-house" AVL build as described, it would be suitable to use a TM34, or even a 35mm or 36mm carb to get all the revs that it could utilize with that stuff.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2014, 07:16:19 PM »
I would say that in a "full-house" AVL build as described, it would be suitable to use a TM34, or even a 35mm or 36mm carb to get all the revs that it could utilize with that stuff.
My money would be on a 36mm carb. 32mm MK I, 34mm MK II and 36mm MK II Amal carbs were all tested in the same session on one occasion with the machine I tuned, small increases in power THROUGHOUT the rev range were noted with each increase in carb size  ;)
 This is where we finished up ...
 B.W.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 07:18:50 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2014, 08:17:49 PM »
A lot depends on the way it is ported.
We use the carb as the primary restriction. It is the smallest cross section in the tract, in the way we do it.
Others put the primary restriction in the port, and use a larger carb.
This ends up with different size carbs for the application, depending on how the builder approaches the inlet design.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2014, 09:01:30 PM »
A lot depends on the way it is ported.
We use the carb as the primary restriction. It is the smallest cross section in the tract, in the way we do it.
Others put the primary restriction in the port, and use a larger carb.
This ends up with different size carbs for the application, depending on how the builder approaches the inlet design.
There may be great potential in the porting in this case, because one thing I was asked to leave stock was the cylinder head's factory porting and general specs - any improvements had to be 'bolt ons' only. I was allowed to modify the stock valves, change springs and open out the hole in the detachable  steel insert in the exhaust port of that machine's head, but that was all. Modifying the piston and shortening the barrel worked better than expected, this was only initially done to evaluate what a high compression kit might achieve, but aspects of my prototyping were not carried over into the 'kit', but that was not up to me to decide.
 B.W.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2014, 11:30:39 PM »
B.W.,

t's a shame your well-known customer wasn't prepared to accept a tuned head as part of their Electra-X package, considering the tuned heads and other performance parts they offer for the classic Bullet engines. Thinking about it, it actually seems quite perverse NOT to include a tuned head amongst their range of go-faster goodies.

You did exceptionally well with what they did allow, though as is now becoming clear, a lot more can still be done with the AVL engine. I look forward to the first dyno run of a Fireball-headed AVL fitted with a set of "S" cams, though it will not be on my machine, unfortunately...

A.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2014, 12:27:28 AM »
Well, I just happen to have the flow bench information on the AVL head right here, so we can discuss.

The AVL rockers do have about 10% lift multiplier ratio built in, and the cams have .300" lift on the intake, and .280" on the exhaust. So, we have max lifts in the vicinity of .330" on the intake, and .308" on the exhaust.

These flow figures that I have do NOT include the manifold stub or carb attached to the head. These are bare head numbers.
We are looking at a peak intake flow of about 157 cfm, and 123 cfm for the exhaust. This is very very similar to the stock intake flow of the Iron Barrel head at similar lifts, except the Iron Barrel exhaust port flows about 10 cfm more because it is a bigger exhaust port and valve. So, we find it no surprise that it also gives about the same power as an Iron Barrel engine which had its compression raised to a similar figure. Apples-to-apples, very similar indeed.

However, we find that if the lifts are increased, the stock AVL intake port does have some ability to flow beyond the stock Iron Barrel intake port, but the exhaust port has a problem at .400" lift and begins to "back up" and lose flow at that lift, which is an indication of a problem in the exhaust port. So, the exhaust port has some problems.

The AVL responds to a larger intake valve and to some porting of both ports. With a 1.8" intake valve and a 1.57" exhaust, things definitely seem to look up. Without any additional lift over stock we got up to 183 cfm after making these mods on the intake side, and got rid of the exhaust back-up issues at all lifts. So, a 26 cfm improvement on the intake side is getting us pretty close to the Iron Barrel Fireball flow rate. Not quite there, but getting close. Pretty good, especially for not having any change to the stock cams or rockers. With the Iron Barrel Fireball, we have higher lift cams to get our lift up to get the 195 cfm flow rate we have with that head.

But, if we add lift height, by cams or rockers, we can get a lot more out of this porting job. By adding Ace cams and the roller rocker package with 1.45:1 ratio, we can bring that lift at the intake valve up to .510" lift. And at that lift with this AVL ported big-valve head, it will flow 208 cfm at peak lift. That is a significant increase of 51 cfm(33% more) over stock, and in fact that is enough to support a peak hp rpm near 7000 rpm, with a carb of sufficient size, like 36mm.

Additionally, the combustion chamber improvement with the  new compact shape is more compact and efficient, which allows faster and more complete burn, which in turn allows us to use a higher compression ratio without detonation. So, we get more out of it on the combustion efficiency end of things too.

This is what is going to give that elusive 40+hp figure that was alluded to when the bike was introduced. We pull more torque out of it with more flow, more compression, better combustion, increase the lift and duration to increase the rpm capacity, and push it to 7000 rpm, and you'll get your 40hp at the rear wheel, which will be around 47hp at the crank.
Essentially, right about the same specs as a Norton Manx 500.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 02:04:11 AM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2014, 03:28:31 AM »
47HP , that's impressive !  ;D . Is it just me or does the AVL head resemble the old Fury head?  :o.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2014, 04:07:04 AM »
Wow, that sounds very cool ace.

Quote
This is what is going to give that elusive 40+hp figure that was alluded to when the bike was introduced. We pull more torque out of it with more flow, more compression, better combustion, increase the lift and duration to increase the rpm capacity, and push it to 7000 rpm, and you'll get your 40hp at the rear wheel, which will be around 47hp at the crank.
Essentially, right about the same specs as a Norton Manx 500.

Do you think the AVL or UCE bottom end can handle that?
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2014, 10:28:21 AM »
47HP , that's impressive !  ;D . Is it just me or does the AVL head resemble the old Fury head?  :o.
Yes, it was intended to be a "new version" of the Fury Big Head. And there are some similarities, but it is updated with some changes for pollution control.

After having the opportunity to work on an AVL head, I think it is a pretty good head that we are able to do a lot with.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 11:57:24 AM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2014, 10:36:57 AM »
Wow, that sounds very cool ace.

Do you think the AVL or UCE bottom end can handle that?
For a certain length of time, the length of which is yet untried and unknown. If it were mine, I would put new high quality bearings in it. The rest of it should probably hold up, except the stock clutch would not hold the power.
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2014, 12:49:27 PM »
At least the AVL engines have a steel conrod with roller big end as standard, so in theory, the bottom end should be stronger than on the 'Classic' Bullets. The oiling system has much greater flow, too, but early engine failures still appear to be possible in some cases, going by what I have read on some forums. I have yet to have one in with a worn out or broken bottom end, though, but I have repaired countless 'Classic' types, but to be fair, there are more of them around.
 B.W.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2014, 01:28:46 PM »
I agree with B.W. on this, and I think it is the general consensus.
While the parts may not be "racing grade" they are serviceable for reasonable duty, and 'should' handle some power increases okay.
I am leery of the bearings. RE likes to use cheap low-grade bearings in everything, for cost savings.

Owners can try out the longevity with power mods to see how it goes.

Like I said, if it were mine, I would upgrade all the engine bearings, including putting a fully-raced new roller bearing in the big end. I simply do not trust the factory parts or assembly in those areas particularly.

I recognize that people don't want to do that. I have been facing that since I started doing Enfield mods for people. But reliability and longevity are part of our goals at Ace, so we try to promote good practices to achieve that. In the end, each owner decides the extent of the work and expense in his bike. Different owners may have different goals, and expectations. The more power output and rpms, the higher the stress on the engine.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 05:46:37 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2014, 06:23:08 PM »
are the ace cams better than the S cams in this application?  I've already made the decision to keep my avl enfield for ever, which means im definitely going to dump excess money into it in the very near future.  Nothing in life would make me happier than a 40 hp custom cafe enfield.

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »
are the ace cams better than the S cams in this application?  I've already made the decision to keep my avl enfield for ever, which means im definitely going to dump excess money into it in the very near future.  Nothing in life would make me happier than a 40 hp custom cafe enfield.

The Ace cams would require the Ace head mods and special valve gear. The S Cams are suited to the stock valve springs, which no other sports cams seem to suit.
So, it is a matter of application.
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Adrian II

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2014, 02:50:08 AM »
I think some of the talk of 40BHP for the 500 AVL stems from the previous UK importer's claim that the engine had been redesigned to be able to SURVIVE up to 44BHP output (if anyone were to develop it that far) rather than actually PRODUCE 44 BHP!  ;D


TejK

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2014, 11:00:46 AM »
This is what is going to give that elusive 40+hp figure that was alluded to when the bike was introduced. We pull more torque out of it with more flow, more compression, better combustion, increase the lift and duration to increase the rpm capacity, and push it to 7000 rpm, and you'll get your 40hp at the rear wheel, which will be around 47hp at the crank.
Essentially, right about the same specs as a Norton Manx 500.

All this with the stock Ignition timing ? or any changes to the stock TCI?

ace.cafe

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Re: Performance Mods for AVL 500 (Machismo 500)
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2014, 11:56:16 AM »
All this with the stock Ignition timing ? or any changes to the stock TCI?
I'm sure that spending some time working on optimizing ignition timing adjustments would give best results.
However, so far we have not seen problems arising from stock timing with the higher compression and our chamber mods. Perhaps it might be a little better with a few degrees retarded from stock, because of the faster burn. It would be up to the owner to experiment with it to find the best timing.

The further the engine is modded away from the stock conditions, the more specialized tuning will be required. This is typical with all performance engines.

B.W.'s adjustable TCI box might be a good idea, along with some offset Woodruff keys, to give plenty of timing options.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 01:44:23 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info