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Author Topic: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>  (Read 2476 times)

Superchuck

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Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« on: June 07, 2012, 12:43:05 AM »
Hey all, so about a year later I'm finally getting around to replacing my busted starter solenoid.  the part I got is a Maxpower Solenoid #334017.  I think it's for lawnmowers or something and I got it at Advance Auto for 8 bucks.  It is a 3 pole solenoid, and I'm confused as to what to do with the smaller (third) pole.  It looks like that's where the blue/white clip from my stock solenoid would go, but not sure how to do this so here are a few questions:

1.  Is the blue/white wire (with plastic clip) only used as the 'neutral safety,'  and the solenoid will still work if i don't connect this, but I will always have to be careful to not hit the starter button when not in neutral?

2.  Can I use a 3 pole solenoid for my AVL?  Would I just cut the blue and white wires where they're soldered into the stock solenoid, then attach them BOTH to the small, third pole?

3.  I remember from some other post about someone suggesting to short out the blue/white clipped wires with a paperclip and that would bypass the neutral safety switch.  Is this true, and is it recommended for long term use?  Also, wouldn't either of the two things I've suggested above be accomplishing this exact shorting of the circuit?

4.  Is the mounting bracket attached to my new solenoid some type of ground connection, or can I cut it off to allow for a smaller mounting space?

Thanks very much for your help!  eating dinner now and I hope to get this installed tonight! 

PS:  here's a photo of my solenoid...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/max/334017/image/2/&imgrefurl=http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/MaxPower-Universal-solenoid-fits-MTD-Murray-Snapper-and-others-replaces-MTD-No-725-0771-and-725-0530/_/N-255s%3FitemIdentifier%3D186862&usg=__p0lE_hW55wOYcH-URfdB7Vyozb4=&h=200&w=200&sz=44&hl=en&start=3&zoom=1&tbnid=nEUbW6QHV6V1vM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=104&ei=5_bPT8jkPIS10QHznYXADQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmaxpower%2Bsolenoid%2B334017%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

Arizoni

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2012, 01:23:32 AM »
I don't have a wiring diagram for an AVL and I don't own one.

That said, if your existing solenoid only has the two heavy wires, one from the battery and the other going to the starter motor, and one white/blue wire connected to it, the white/blue wire is what activates it.

That would mean that you need to connect the heavy wires to the two terminals on your new solenoid.
The white/blue wire would be connected to the small terminal.

Because there is no 4th grounding wire I must assume the flange on the new solenoid grounds it to the frame so that the power being supplied by the white/blue wire has a way to get back to the battery.

If I am right about the grounding thru the flange, make sure there is a unpainted area for a part of the solenoid flange to make contact with.  The entire flange does not have to make contact.  Just some area of it.
Actually, the head of the hex bolt that will hold the new solenoid in place may be enough of a ground but it (the bolt or nut) will have to be making a good electrical contact with the frame.

As far as I know, there is no easy way to get the neutral switch out of the electric starting loop.
On the UCE,s there is a side stand switch and unplugging its wires at the connector will disable it. 
I disabled my sidestand switch on my UCE just because I didn't want one more switch that could go bad determining whether my electric starter works.
Jim
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Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 01:55:48 AM »
Thanks for the quick reply Arizoni,

I think it strange to be connecting two different wires to one contact (the 3rd, smaller pole).  The blue and white wires will in fact be touching when they are secured there... will this negate any 'signal' transfer from the starter button to the solenoid?    I'm wondering if maybe I don't need a 4-post solenoid for this...  hmm...  i guess i could always try it anyway??

thanks in advance,

Chuck


Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 03:33:52 AM »
Here is a description from some other post in the world wide interweb about replacing the solenoid on a murray lawnmower (which is one of the things recommended for installation of this 3rd party solenoid I bought):

"I have a murray riding mower. I recently replaced the solenoid. The big red wire from the battery and the wire with the fuse go on the left side as you are looking at it from the seat. The other small wire (black) goes on the base of the solenoid on the opposited side to ground the solenoid. Then there is another wire (orange) that fits on the clip on the side of the solenoid. Last the other big wire goes on top of the right side of the solenoid. Good luck."

So it does sound like you're right that one of the small wires gets wired to the base to ground it.  I'll have to check my wiring diagram tomorrow to see which (white or blue) is the ground.  I read in a few places that it doesn't matter which of the big posts you wire either "big post wire" to.  (if that makes any sense...)


Arizoni

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 03:50:14 AM »
I misread your original post.
I was under the impression that there was only one wire with a blue and white insulation.  (Both colors on the same piece of wire).

If a total of 4 wires are going to your original solenoid, two heavy (usually red) wires and one white and one blue it is very possible that one of the small wires is the power supply and the other wire is a ground wire.
If this is the case, twisting them together or attaching them to the same terminal will create a dead short and possibly damage your wiring harness.

Before you put both of these wires onto one terminal you need to find out what each one is doing.  To do that you will need a multimeter (volt and ohm meter).

I haven't heard of anyone using white as a ground wire but the power supply wire from the starter button on the handlebars to the solenoid on my UCE is blue.

This is the wire that energizes the solenoid to make it power the starter motor.

Does anyone else have a AVL that can figure out if there are only three wires connected on their starter motor solenoid or are there a total of 4?

While we are waiting for the others to comment, if you have a multi-tester set it to one of the ohms settings to see if your wires are connected to ground.

Placing one test lead against the fins on your engine and the other on first the white and then the blue wire see if you get a 0 (zero) reading.
If you do, that wire is a ground wire.

If it is the ground wire it should be connected to the hold down bolt on your new solenoid to ground the housing.
If neither wire has a 0 (zero) reading double check your meter by touching both of its leads together.  That should give a zero reading on the dial.

If neither the white or the blue wire are connected to ground then one or possibly both are a power supply.

To find out for sure, put the transmission into neutral.  Turn your multi-meter to read DC voltage.  Probably a 20 volt scale.

Attach one test lead to the engines cooling fin and the other lead to the blue wire.
Turn on the ignition and press the starter button.  The meter should read 12 volts.  If it reads 12 volts and it drops to zero when you release the starter button, you have found the power supply that will be connected to the small single terminal on your new solenoid.

Now, do the same with the white wire.  If this wire also reads 12 volts with the starter button pushed it is acting as a back up for the blue wire so it would be safe to connect it to the new solenoids small terminal.

As for the large wires from the battery and the starter motor it makes no difference which large terminal on your new solenoid they are connected to.
Just hook them up so there is no chance of one touching the other and so the wires aren't pushed against any sharp metal edges on the bike.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 04:09:44 AM by Arizoni »
Jim
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Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 11:16:53 PM »
Cool thanks very much for the walkthrough... i think it's making sense now.  Turns out as of yesterday I can't even start my bike with kickstart so I've got to address that before I go and replace my solenoid.

Thanks again for your help, and if anyone else wants to chime in I'm probably not going to get to replacing the solenoid til this weekend.

Cheers,

Chuck

Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 11:56:58 PM »
Ok so i'm an idiot and my kill switch has been on for a month. :o

can't believe i said that aloud.

greenie

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2012, 03:44:56 AM »
hey-been there,done that.flipped the switch. :)
greenie
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Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 01:02:31 AM »
So gentlemen,

I FINALLY got around to doing this little maneuver.  it's been a while.. i know...  Clipped the little blue and white signal wires where they enter the old solenoid and started testing for voltage/grounds. 

With the bike turned on (via the key) but starter button dormant, the white wire reads 12.73 V constantly.  The Blue reads 0.00 V consistently.  (when compared to ground).

THEN, when I hit the starter button, the white still reads 12.73 V compared to ground.  Shockingly, now the Blue wire also reads 12+ V.

I am in need of some electrical advice, as I have no experience in these sort of things.  If the blue and white wires were 'backups' of eachother, I would assume that they would both read 0.00 V while dormant, then both read 12+ V when the starter button is pressed.  This isn't the case.  And the white wire can't be acting as a ground since it is showing consistent voltage, correct?

I also (with my electrical engineer friend's telephone supervision) experimented a bit with the new solenoid.  I hooked the new solenoid up to the starter via its big lead.  I then hooked the blue, then the white, then BOTH of the little signal wires to the signal contact on the new solenoid to see if I could get it to 'click,' thus telling me it's working.  Nothing happened in any of these situations, starter button pressed or not.  I'm thinking that it might need the battery + lead connected as well for anything to happen (even for the solenoid to click...).  I also wager that the metal flange mount of the new solenoid must be connected to a ground for anything to happen.  Can the inactive Starter lead (the wire that goes from solenoid to starter) be used as the ground in the solenoid?  How does the OEM Royal enfield solenoid work?  Is there a ground, or does it not need external grounding?  I assume the latter is the case since it is mounted in rubber (no metal contact)... unless the inactive starter lead is acting to ground the OEM solenoid.

These are my completely novice speculations.  My abovementioned friend, an esteemed electrical engineer, is unfortunately no wiz with old quirky brit bikes.  I'm thinking there may be something larger at play here... something beyond physics or reason.  The enfield gremlins win again...

Thanks in advance for any input anyone may have.  I was chased inside by a thunderstorm just now or I'd still be out tinkering myself to electrocution.

Chuck

barenekd

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 03:52:28 PM »
The way it works with just one small post is the power goes to the post when the starter button is pushed and grounds through the solenoid case into the mounting attach point. You need to determine which wire gets the juice from the starter button and attach that to the post. Then you need to ground the mounting brackets to the frame.
Bare
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Superchuck

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2012, 05:32:22 PM »
Agreed, now to figure out which carries the signal...

So in my experimentation last night, I found that the 2 control wires (which come from the same plastic coupler) carry the following current:

White wire:  Always shows 12v with, and without the starter button pressed.
Blue wire:  Shows 0.00v without starter button pressed, shows 12v when button is pressed.

Does anyone know why these read the way they do?  It doesn't look like there could be any harm in wrapping them together and mounting them both to the small pole on the new solenoid, correct?

Maybe I'll mount it all up and just keep experimenting...

Thanks!

jartist

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2012, 06:03:51 PM »
You're blue wire is the signal wire since it has voltage when you press the start button. The weird part is why the white has voltage on it all the time?  Don't connect the blue and white to the solenoid or the starter will always be on! I would just leave off the white and wrap it good to make sure it doesn't ground out on the frame.  Hook up the blue to the small post, big wires to big posts solenoid grounded to frame and you're good to go!

Arizoni

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2012, 07:24:16 PM »
I agree.

The white wire which is always powered should not be connected to anything.  Tape it off so it cannot touch anything that is grounded.

The blue wire will go to one of the small terminals on the solenoid.  Which small terminal, I don't know yet.

There must be some electrical path from the solenoid to ground.  This may be the case of the solenoid or one of the other small terminals.

If you have a volt/ohm meter you can find the grounding terminal by setting the meter to the Ohm function and then trying it on the small terminals.
If there is no reading between the terminals, one of them is not the right one.
Find the small terminals which show a electrical connection by creating a reading on the Ohm meter.

When properly connected, the solenoid will make a "Click" sound when the starter button is pushed.



Jim
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barenekd

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 09:06:30 PM »
The bottom is the power terminal. And the ground is through the mounting brackets. If your not mounting it by the brackets, which isn't likely with an Enfield, you need to run a wire from the bracket to ground.
The two top ones are for the big wires, one from the battery and one to the starter.
Bare
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 09:10:31 PM by barenekd »
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jartist

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Re: Solenoid Replacement - 3 pole ok?>
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »
I think it's two big terminals, one for battery and one for starter (it doesn't matter which is which) and one small terminal for the signal wire that comes from the starter switch to make the three poles.  Grounding for the signal is to the frame through the mounting bracket.

Just so you get how it works, you push the button on the handle bars to close that switch and a low amount of power at 12v goes from the starter switch through the signal wire (in this case blue colored wire)  and to an electromagnet coil in the coil and then to the ground.  This small amount of power energizes coils on an electromagnet inside the solenoid which pulls on a bar with terminals which closes the circuit on a high power load switch.  When that circuit is closed the power goes directly from the batter through the big posts to the starter.

It's simpler than it sounds, it's just a high power relay.  The difference between the four post and the three pole is that the four pole has two small posts, one for the signal wire and one for a ground to the signal wire.  The three pole has one small post for the signal wire and then grounds to the frame.

You're white wire should be a ground so why it has 12v on it all the time is beyond me unless it has a weird feedback through the frame.  I would set you're multimeter to 1k ohms and put one probe to the white wire and one to the engine with the ignition off to verify that it's a ground.  You should get 0 ohms.