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Author Topic: Now what did I screw up?  (Read 2546 times)

The Garbone

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Now what did I screw up?
« on: July 12, 2012, 07:50:26 PM »
Got home from work today and decided it was a good time to retorque my head.  Pulled the tank and rocker covers and torqued things down to 21lbs.  Also replaced the intake pushrod and adjusted the new one to spec as the one I had was adjusted as short as it could go and still was a bit on the snug side. 

After putting everything back together I kicked the bike to life it idled fine.  Left the driveway on a trek to find a brick shit house and as soon as I give the bike half throttle it just dies.  Huh?   Took it back to the driveway and discovered if I increase throttle very slow it will rev nicely but if I open the throttle fairly quickly it stalls. 

Sitting here writing this I had a thought that maybe I cracked the ceramic on the plug when I torqued the head down, if that is not it I have no clue.  Any suggestions?
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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jedaks

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 08:25:15 PM »
Its possible it is unrelated to any maintenance you did. That kind of thing happens to me sometimes, i.e. I adjust my brakes and then one of the turn signals won't work!

If my engine is not warm enough a blip of the throttle will kill it. It can also mean a lean condition, like a leak in the rubber carb manifold.

Arizoni

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »
Maybe some dirt/rust/debris got loosened up in the fuel line or the tank valve and was washed down into the carburetor when you put the fuel tank back on?

Maybe you jostled some wiring when you removed/replaced the fuel tank?

Do you remember the commercial where the guy says, "Its Broken! Did you touch it?"

Sometimes it doesn't pay to fix stuff that's not broken. :(
Jim
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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 09:35:15 AM »
My guess is that the battery is low, or there is water in your gas, or you have some dirt blocking your needle jet in the carb or something.

Water in the gas will act like that.
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Blltrdr

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 10:44:07 AM »
Mine acted up a few weeks ago and when I opened the carb bowl drain the main jet fell out. Screwed it back in all happy again.
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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2012, 12:53:21 AM »
You need one full servicing. Just do it .

 

The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 05:03:18 PM »
Ok,

Replaced the plug with a new one for GP.
Pulled apart the carb and checked the float and needle.
Pulled off air filter.
Checked push rods adjustment.
Checked voltage.  She idles at 14.5vdc and revs at 15vdc.

Here is how she acts.   I can nurse it up to high RPM but if I open the throttle normally she stalls.  Also the gas mist is troubling.

Sorry for the shaky cam,  when she starts to spit gas on I kinda did not want it on the camera.



Thoughts?
I did change the push rod before this started.  I would not think a sticky rocker would cause an this.  Also the compression is higher now that I have a proper length rod.  I can stand on the kicker. Could my timing be an issue?

« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 05:37:13 PM by The Garbone »
Gary
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07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 05:36:16 PM »
What's the jetting?
Sounds like it needs richer in the needle jet.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 05:38:16 PM »
EDITED:  It is the leaner setup you recommended with a 195 main and P4 needle.   So I would move to a p6?
It is in the high 80s here at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 05:44:40 PM by The Garbone »
Gary
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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 07:11:08 AM »
Yes, I'd definitely try a richer needle jet and main.
Chumma is tuning another Clubman set-up like yours in NJ right now, and it is showing need for a P8 and a 200.
Might need a Q0 for colder weather.

It appears the shorter lift of the rephased cams doesn't allow as much air flow, and this is seeming to affect atomization to some extent, which is showing the need for the richer jetting than the Fireballs.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 10:29:06 AM »
When I pulled the old plug it seemed sooty black.  I will have to check the new plug.

I just ordered a bunch of jets from these guys. Both richer and leaner.


Niche Cycle

Very quick shipping here in Florida.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 10:32:18 AM by The Garbone »
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 10:36:57 AM »
Are you using NGK BR8ES, or equivalent heat range spark plug?
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 11:07:52 AM »
Here is my old plug.





I purchased some leaner jetting in addition to richer because I was noodling it out that with higher compression the mix might be a bit too rich now.  The plug looks rich.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
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07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 12:00:39 PM »
Well, it looks rich.  But it is critical to know if that plug reading was taken at the throttle positions in question.

The other thing is that crack in the spark plug ceramic could be causing some of of the electrical spark to arc to the grounding body, and might be reducing the effectiveness of the spark inside the chamber.
Try a new plug, just to eliminate that possibility.
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Arizoni

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 04:47:03 PM »
If my spark plug looked that black I would go at least 2 heat ranges hotter as my first step.

With the NGK's that would be going from a 8 to a 6.  Lower numbers = hotter plugs with that company.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 09:51:48 AM »
May pick up a br6es plug and git it a try.

Last weekend fiddled with the carb and tried the p4 190.  Seemed to be good once it got past the lump in the middle of what I think is a too rich needle jet.

Next batch of jets are due in tonight.  Probably will not get time to fiddle until Thursday.  I am thinking an P0 and a 185 or 190 might do the trick.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2012, 11:03:21 AM »
I'm getting worried.
P0 is too lean for a needle jet at sea level.
B6ES is WAY too hot a plug.
These things are getting far away from normal parameters for your setup.
You don't need to go there.
A 185 main might be possible, but that's the lower limit, and you have to be sure about it.

I need to know what throttle settings that black plug is happening at, and what throttle settings it's looking normal or lean.
If that is just a "general" plug reading after shutting off the bike, it is not showing you where it's rich or lean.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:06:45 AM by ace.cafe »
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2012, 12:53:32 PM »
The black plug is at 3/4 to full throttle with no air filter, the p4 195. 

When I put the 190 in the issue seemed to be much more defined down in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle zone.  Maybe I should have ordered a p2 instead of skipping a size.

I will forgo the plug change.   

Something I observed on this bike as apposed to my 07 is that the Goldie pipe seems to be a lot quieter on this one.  I bought this pipe on fleabay and the one on the 07 from CMW.  They appear to be of different manufacture with the fleabay one being older and possibly vintage.  Judging from the sound it may not be as free flow as the modern one.
Gary
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67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2012, 01:03:52 PM »
Okay,
the 3/4 reading is all needle, so you need to lower your needle to lean out that range a little.
If you are running out of grooves to make the needle lean enough, order a 6DP17 needle, which is equivalent to 2 grooves leaner than the stock needle. This gives you 2 more grooves in the lean direction, if you need it. Most times the sea level bikes don't need that, but we'll deal with what we are seeing individually here.

Full throttle and slightly below is the main jet, so maybe you can use the 185 and see how it is.

For the 1/4-1/2 range, that definitely IS the needle jet area.
The leanest we've ever put a Fireball at sea level is P2 needle jet, and that was really on the dangerous edge of lean.

The Goldstar exhaust issue is a good point, and that could account for the richer readings than I am accustomed to seeing. Our readings are normally with an unbaffled muffler, or a megaphone.
Since the more restrictive exhausts are territory that we really haven't explored, you may have to do some probing in that direction to see what works in that situation.
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mikail gransee

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2012, 02:26:08 PM »
Sounds to me that your timing is off and misfire is occuring...when you throttle it, it floods and dies. Check your ignition points.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 07:18:44 PM »
Ok,  so back to work on this.

I got home from work today and promptly picked up my envelope of jets, a beer and a mystery envelope I got from CMW.





Turns out the CMW package was a primary gasket kick I ordered some time ago.   Don't even need it any more.....



So on to the jets.     The leanest needle jet I had was a P4.  I ordered a P0 to see if leaner would help.  How ever I am concerned about the P0.   



The P0 is on the left, P4 on the right.  The actual lower shaft appears shorter on the P0, keeping the jet higher in the bowl and not allowing the use of the plastic and brass spacer that resides in the bottom of the bowl.   It also has quite a bit of a taller riser that goes up into the throat of the carb.   I assume I can use this jet but was a bit hesitant and want some opinions on it.
 
So instead of putting the P0 in I ran a P4 with a 190, 195 and 200 in order.  It appears the 190 feels the best.

Also spent some time looking at the ignition and points wiring in general.  Installed a new battery. Moved the advance back and forth and check my gap.  The actual points and condenser are brand new.  I did find a loose wire on the secondary of the coil and had a moment of hope, but to no avail.  The symptoms persist.

It is strange in that the bike idles perfect, starting first kick.  Also if you get it to rev it will scoot along at full throttle.   In between, not so much. 

On a humorous note my neighbor across the street is a Brit and on one of my trips down the driveway he came out and started yelling.  "Hey mate, is it broke?"  I yelled back "I'm working on it" and his response was, "Of course its broke, its British."  Funny with his heavy accent.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 07:25:28 PM by The Garbone »
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 08:01:02 PM »
I don't know what to make of that P0 jet.
It looks unusual. I never used a P0 so far, but I think they should look about like the others. I'd check on it.

When you change the main, it does slightly affect the others too, so see how it feels overall, and if you can notice any midrange improvements.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 04:53:05 PM »
Today I went and purchased a new spark plug wire.  Just wanted to try a different approach.  Did not fix it.

Put in the P0 and the 190 jet and gave it a run.   

Here is 41 seconds of uninspired revving of the motor.


I am not entirely convinced it is jetting. 

To recap,
 The motor was running fine with the P4 195.

I road the bike home as normal on the day this started,  pulled the tank and torqued the head and replace the intake push rod with a shorter one.  With the shorter rod there is noticeably more compression as the longer one seemed to be holding the valve open just a touch.  Put it back together and this symptom appeared.

Since I have,
Dicked with the jets
Adjusted the timing
Replaced the plug and wire
re terminated  the secondary leads on the coil
installed a new battery
checked my voltages

Still the same issue persists.

I am at my wits end on this one.  My next step is to replace the entire breaker assembly with the one off my 07.   I don't think it will fix it but........

Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 04:58:41 PM »
I notice at the start of the video I open the throttle to get the symptoms and you can actually see some globs of fuel being sucked up from the jet.  Hmmmm...
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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jartist

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 07:12:49 PM »
Do you still have the old pushrod to put back in?  Return the back to exactly what you had before just to rule out the changes?  It still sounds like carb issues though if it's just the midrange but you didn't change the carb unless you took it off and bumped it or something.  Is the needle bent or the float cracked or air passage blocked?  Could the needle not be seating all the way where it's supposed to be?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 07:19:00 PM by jartist »

ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2012, 07:51:08 PM »
I'm leery of that long pushrod, if it's holding the valve open.
You can burn a valve real quick by holding it open. I'd use the short pushrod, and adjust it correctly for length.

Typically, if you can get it thru the problem area, and then have it clear up at higher revs, it's jetting.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2012, 08:04:52 PM »
I think I will start fiddling with the needle as Tom suggested.   I am hesitant as the spring can be a pain to work with but I see no other way.   I will ride it around tommorow and get a feel then lower the needle and see if the dead spot moves higher in the throttle accordingly.  I may have to order a new needle if it does. 

When riding it runs fine at idle and just off, but I have to nurse it through 1/4 to 3/4 or so.  It is just such a drastic dead area that none of my fiddling has seemed to fix.

Also when I put the P0 in it raised the main jet about 1/4 inch or so as it does not accomidate the main jet ring assembly.

Another thought I had was to remove the muffler and see if the it helps.  If it does I can swap Goldies or get a megaphone.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 06:37:30 AM »
Your affected throttle range is in the territory that is controlled by the needle and needle jet.
I'd say that working with the needle is the thing to do next.

If you can get somebody to hold the spring up, while you fiddle with getting the cable end out of the slide, it helps. It's a 3-hand activity.
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 05:50:34 PM »
Ugg , rained out this afternoon. 
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 06:20:02 PM »
Got a bit of fiddling before the rain set in today. 

Pulled the breaker assembly off the 07' and put it on just to see if it made any difference. It did not.  So much for a quick fix, on to jetting.

Lowered the slide to the top notch and put in a 185 with a P0 needle jet.

I could get on the throttle a bit more but it still has a dead spot in the middle of the throttle.  It is easier to nurse it through but I feel that the 185 is too anemic at the top end. 

For giggle I put the P4 back in with a 200 and gave it a try. Definately much worse.   I then pulled the muffler off and looked down it with a flash light and sure enough it had appears to have a baffle way down inside the rear.  I tried to run it without the muffler and although it sounded better it did not improve things with the over rich jetting. 

I was going to give a P0 and 190 a try with no muffler but it started to rain so that is it for me today.   Maybe a O6 and 190 also and see how that feels. 

I think I will be ordering a new needle and swapping the mufflers so the 95 has the more free flow one is currenty insalled on the 07.   Or I could forgo having to worry about rejetting the 07 and buy a megaphone... hmmmm....
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2012, 06:44:11 PM »
Well,  I figured out my question of why those jets looked a bit off.  Seems I purchased a VM32 P0 jet and not a TM32 jet.   Attention to detail gets me every time.   Well, have the correct jets (p2 and o8) and a new needle on the way.   Ugg...
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2012, 08:39:44 PM »
Just out of curiosity, do you have a header pipe that has the "hot tube" restrictor in the tail end, just before the muffler?
I know the older bikes never had them, but sometimes the exhaust system gets replaced along the way.
Just a thought.
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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2012, 05:31:06 PM »
Checked today,  no heat pipe in the end of the header.

   Ordered a Dunstall replica megaphone.  I hope I like it. 
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2012, 05:21:24 PM »
Was out of town for a bit so the bike has been sitting.    Reading this thread I really am tiring of this,  guess it would have been better to start with the proper jets as I am basically at square one.  Tried a P2 and 190 today still had issues.     Its odd in that it will rev fine if I nurse it past a certain point in the lower RPM range,  then I repeat and can't duplicate the condition.    I am wondering if it is electrical but in the feed to the coil,  maybe a bad connection behind the headlamp.   I think I will do some rebuilding in the next few days before I beat myself to death on the carb.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 05:24:15 PM by The Garbone »
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2012, 07:00:07 PM »
Do you have a 3-way timing pinion in the bike, or in your possession?

If you do, we can try some slight advancing of the cams with it. In some cases, if the intake cam is too far retarded, it can cause a spit at lower rpms.

If nothing else seems to work, we could try that.
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single

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2012, 10:16:59 PM »
Well,Garbone,you have helped me on here,and I feel yer pain,hang in there.Hope it is over soon.

Bulletbaz

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 01:11:11 PM »
You said you have checked the float, so presumably no petrol has leaked inside it. But did you check the float height? Just a thought!

baird4444

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2012, 01:27:32 PM »
sounds like fuel delivery to me.
lo float??
gas cap vent blocked?
start with the easy stuff...never overlook the obvious- Mike
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The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2012, 01:44:28 PM »
The carb has 2 floats actually.  Each slides on a pin on either side of the bowl.  I just flip the cab inverted and make sure the need valve is seated with the arms of the float lever thingy at the proper height.   

I will look up the procedure online and double check things next time I take the carb down.

The thing is the motor ran fine as jetted for the first 500 miles of break in.   

I have never been happy with the wiring mess behind the headlamp and at the moment I am leaning toward that side of the equation.   I may have buggered the harness between the switch and the coil when I pulled the tank.  Maybe a high open someplace that shows good voltage but drops it once current is pulled through.   Of course I naturally gravitate to playing with electrics since that is what I am do for a living.   

I had a thought to bring it to a shop for them to figure out but came to the conclusion in my mind (and I could be wrong) that most in the indi's in my are are Harley Chrome type guys. 

I will tinker with it some more Thursday and this weekend when I have time.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2012, 07:04:01 PM »
Well,  since I had been fooling with the wrong type of jets and my instinct was telling me go lean to no avail I reset my brain and decided to go with Aces suggestion of richer.

I am now at a Q0 and a 200 and the rig seems to be running better.  There is still an issue above 1/2 throttle and in my previous fiddling I had moved the needle up 2 notches.  I am hoping that moving it back down I will get the 1/2 throttle transition to work better.

Another separate issue I have notice is that if the points are closed the bike will blow the 20amp fuse on the battery.  Ehhhh.   It starts and idles fine without the battery.    I ohmed out the coil and it appears to be close to the value of my other Bosch coil so I don't know.... 
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

ace.cafe

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2012, 07:26:30 AM »
I'm baffled.
You just have to try things to see what works.
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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2012, 12:05:42 PM »
Since you are blowing the fuse with the points closed, perhaps you should try installing new points and condensor. Sounds to me like the condensor is shot. A shot condensor sends the timing all over the place and the points aren't really controlling anything. The juice from the coil will just jump the open gap of the points.
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madmaxnc

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2012, 04:26:48 PM »
It sounds like we might be in the same boat,I'm have very similar problem

The Garbone

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Re: Now what did I screw up?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2012, 08:12:24 AM »
Since you are blowing the fuse with the points closed, perhaps you should try installing new points and condensor. Sounds to me like the condensor is shot. A shot condensor sends the timing all over the place and the points aren't really controlling anything. The juice from the coil will just jump the open gap of the points.
Bare

Well, I have an electronic ignition sitting on the shelf that I was saving for the 57'.  I will stick that in and see if it helps after I try lowering the needle two notches. 

I really need to get this sorted out so I can start working on the 57'. 
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *