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Author Topic: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??  (Read 936 times)

wiekingderviking

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Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« on: September 19, 2012, 06:27:56 PM »
It should be simple! I've got an exhaust leak between the head and header of my 2007 Electra AVL. I have draw-filed the sealing surface of the header and made sure that the header is drawn up tight with its flange nuts BEFORE I attach the muffler. 

Still, I get a leak of exhaust.

I sure wish "they" used a nice, old VW-like copper exhaust sealing ring....any fixes out there??

"Is it just me?"
Bob
History:
1947 BSA 500cc flat tracker
1960 Matchless 350cc single
1960's Honda CB450
1965 R60 BMW
1960's Matchless "Typhoon" 500cc
1986 Yamaha 500cc single
BMW K75
2007 Royal Enfield Electra, AVL

t120rbullet

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 07:23:10 PM »
Try using 2 gaskets.
Draw it up tight and install the muffler so it's not putting any pressure on the pipe. Re- tighten after a few hot/cold cycles.
CJ
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

barenekd

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 07:56:48 PM »
You can get copper sealing rings from places like Aircraft Spruce and Specialities. www.aircraftspruce.com. Also some high temp silicone sealer can help.
Bare
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
http://www.controllineplans.com

boggy

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 08:28:17 PM »
Same deal for me, wiekingderviking.  I think I DO have two gaskets on there.
If you use the silicone, is it difficult to get the pipe off again if you need to?
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

tooseevee

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 07:12:06 PM »
It should be simple! I've got an exhaust leak between the head and header of my 2007 Electra AVL. I have draw-filed the sealing surface of the header and made sure that the header is drawn up tight with its flange nuts BEFORE I attach the muffler. 

Still, I get a leak of exhaust.

I sure wish "they" used a nice, old VW-like copper exhaust sealing ring....any fixes out there??

"Is it just me?"
Bob

            I've been lucky with my '08, I guess. I've had it off&on&off&on&off&on & no problem yet with the original gasket. I just be really, really careful bringing the torque on & wiggling, wiggling all the way. And Never with the muffler attached.

             Those copper lip gaskets worked fine, didn't they?  For what? 100 years? On cars AND bikes. Still do. Sometimes leaks might be due to fitting-up problems, not bad components. Intake even more often. 

               
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

boggy

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 07:16:28 PM »
I just be really, really careful bringing the torque on

Be REALLY, really, really careful.  I over-torqued one of the header bolts with barely any pressure when I was trying to tighten up the leak. It's really easy to do.
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

barenekd

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 11:36:57 PM »
the silicone sealer doesn't harden, so it's quite easy to remove the pipe at a later date. As for not having the muffler attached when you're tightening the pipe, it's a bad idea. Tighten the pipe and brackets before you try to seal the head as then it will be in the position it needs to be in. Doing it without tightening the attaching parts will result in high stress points as the other parts are trying the move head joint which can break the seal, or the pipe bolts.
But pipe does need to be close to the position where it will finally sit, but not tightened all the way until last.
Bare
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
http://www.controllineplans.com

wiekingderviking

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 05:17:41 PM »
RE Friends:
"now he tells us"....I SHOULD have noticed the  two black gaskets with their tops burnt up! (I assssumed that it was a metal-to-metal seal).
Actually I see very little of the bike details close-up, with my eyes and lumbar fusion!

I then ordered two new gaskets from NFIELD. I have a hunch that if you use only one gasket that the retaining flange-plate will bottom out on the exhaust studs, since the studs have a shoulder, AND THIS WILL PRODUCE A LEAK!
The only bright spot in my  dim-wit approach is that my local Honda/Yamaha dealer had a Beautiful swaged copper (asbestos-filled?) exhaust seal that is the thickness of 2 RE gaskets.  It fit up and sealed just fine.
Now I'll have to get the dealer to figure out what make the copper gasket is  used for, so I can order a spare!

Thank YOU for all of your ideas!!
Ellensburg

History:
1947 BSA 500cc flat tracker
1960 Matchless 350cc single
1960's Honda CB450
1965 R60 BMW
1960's Matchless "Typhoon" 500cc
1986 Yamaha 500cc single
BMW K75
2007 Royal Enfield Electra, AVL

t120rbullet

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 05:39:40 PM »
Now I'll have to get the dealer to figure out what make the copper gasket is  used for, so I can order a spare!

And pass the part # on to your RE Friends !
1999 Enfield 500 Black Deluxe "Silver"
2012 Concours 14 (no name yet)
2013 Royal Star Venture S  "Jelly Roll"

barenekd

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/an900.php
The Crush Washer page. Be sure to measure the ID of your exhaust port, It's less than an 1-1/2".
Bare 
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
http://www.controllineplans.com

Arizoni

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 10:03:07 PM »
Ah!  The good old AN and MS metallic crush seal!
How can you go wrong with a seal that meets military requirements?
AN = Army Navy and MS = Military Specification
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

wiekingderviking

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 04:14:15 AM »
OK! I've got the Yamaha part # for the copper/asbestos exhaust seal that I installed on my AVL 500cc engine:
it is a YAMAHA #,  lcx146130000.
 My local Yamaha dealer, "Yamaha Jack's" in Ellensburg, WA, just happened to have ONE of the seals ---that turned out to fit the RE!!!(it was a special order that fizzled--what good luck for me).

This Yamaha dealer  will know exactly what to order!!!

For the  techno-geeks among us, I researched the I'net and discovered that a DISTRIBUTOR(not a dealer) called K and L distributes a VAST assortment of these and other exhaust sealing rings/gaskets. Their online catalog even gives ID, OD, and thickness for  each. There actually exist other copper sealing gaskets in their catalog, with slightly varying ID, OD, and thickness!!! Take your pick!

 I note that K and L sells these "ten to a pack".   Hopefully Yamaha parts distribution system will break these packs apart to sell me the ONE MORE that I ordered from Yamaha Jack today!....

As for the recommendation regarding Aircraft Spruce as a source of copper crush washers.....the Forum-provided  Spruce chart tells me, anyway, that they are the traditional CIRCULAR CROSS SECTION  copper sealing gaskets!!!!!!!IMHO, the OD/ ID/ thickness geometry of the Spruce  gaskets are NOT the same as the exhaust seals that I have referred to!! (I would describe the Yamaha gasket cross-section as an "over-stuffed SQUARE--about 4-5 mm of a side). To me, then, a single "Spruce" copper gasket will NOT be thick enough to seal at all well.  Being circular in cross section,  they will NOT
provide much sealing contact AREA, even if "crushed" a whole lot. The temptation to use 2 or 3 of the circular "Spruce" gaskets will only make more durability and sealing problems arise(IMHO). 

Finally, I will admit that a $14 Yamaha exhaust gasket is way too expensive compared to the ~$1.00 or so for the "Spruce"  gasket.
Ellensburg

 
History:
1947 BSA 500cc flat tracker
1960 Matchless 350cc single
1960's Honda CB450
1965 R60 BMW
1960's Matchless "Typhoon" 500cc
1986 Yamaha 500cc single
BMW K75
2007 Royal Enfield Electra, AVL

barenekd

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 08:18:37 PM »
They are only circular when you slip them in. When you crush them they are quite flat. They seal 1 liter cylinder aircraft exhausts and other bits quite well! Oh, they work in my Enfield quite well too. They are round so they can conform to a not quite square sealing joint.
Bare
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
http://www.controllineplans.com

tooseevee

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 02:08:54 AM »
the silicone sealer doesn't harden, so it's quite easy to remove the pipe at a later date. As for not having the muffler attached when you're tightening the pipe, it's a bad idea. Tighten the pipe and brackets before you try to seal the head as then it will be in the position it needs to be in. Doing it without tightening the attaching parts will result in high stress points as the other parts are trying the move head joint which can break the seal, or the pipe bolts.
But pipe does need to be close to the position where it will finally sit, but not tightened all the way until last.
Bare

          I see what you're saying, but I fabbed my brackets specifically to avoid that. Especially to avoid stress at the head if you have it too tight at first & THEN tightening up rearward brackets that are a 1/2" out of whack. I've made sure with both the mufflers I've had that everything fits without moving anything else. 
2008 RE AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

wiekingderviking

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Re: Head-to-Header seal on AVL 500cc Engine??
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 03:52:34 PM »
FLASH! *&^%$#@
My local Yamaha dealer tried to order more of the "hot-shot" exhaust gasket that I have been raving about.... he said that they are no longer available, at least from his source.
I  do not know what to say....
Ellensburg Bob
History:
1947 BSA 500cc flat tracker
1960 Matchless 350cc single
1960's Honda CB450
1965 R60 BMW
1960's Matchless "Typhoon" 500cc
1986 Yamaha 500cc single
BMW K75
2007 Royal Enfield Electra, AVL