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Author Topic: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle  (Read 3358 times)

boggy

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Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« on: September 17, 2012, 05:50:03 PM »
I had a rich bog last year that I tuned with some jets, needle positions.  I've run great all season, commuting daily, never touched my idle.  I know I was still running a bit rich but within reason.  Roughly even temps between 70-80F.  Ran it for hours on last Sunday and commuted fine Mon-Thurs.  Idled perfect/kicked first kick all season.  Really even throttle and power up and down the RPMs.

I dialed my air screw 1/4 turn to lean it out as in the past few weeks prior I've noticed quite a bit of backfiring (more than usual).  Because my throttle-needle in in the highest (or lowest?) position when I lean out my air screw, I can not lower my idle speed as I'm at the extreme of the idle screw so it was idling a little high.  That was the first thing I noticed about 2 weeks ago but again, it was running really solid, daily. 

Tried kicking last week on way home from work after a fine morning commute and I fouled a plug.  It wouldn't kick and when I pulled it, it smelled like gas, pretty sooty.  New plug started right up but the bike was running really bad.  Sounded like it was missing firing or something but I got it home.

Sunday morning I put in a new plug, and it kicked right up but as soon as I went to give it gas, it wanted to flub-out on me.  Like it was choking on gas maybe.  Or not getting enough.  Not sure.  So I drained the float bowl but that didn't help.  Neither did cleaning the fuel filter.  Sooty plug again.

Now it will kick over, and the idle will be wild.  It'll race, then it'll settle down.  If I give it gas it sounds really raspy, some snapping-popping at times, but past 1/4 throttle it wants to give out on me.  Then it'll stall out and won't kick over for a little while.  This is in neutral.  If I put it in gear and try to go it'll feel like it's getting gas, then not.  Forward-pull, forward-pull, then nothing, then pull, then nothing.  Lurching forward.  Dialing the air-screw does not help.

I'm a complete loss.  I spent so much of last year dialing in the carb and like I said, for months now it's been running GREAT.  No wild temperature swings.  Just a really quick onset of this issue.  My first thought is I'm way to rich, but WHY would I be SO rich all of a sudden after months and months of no issues?  That makes me hesitate to mess with any jetting right now. 

I'm ready for some ideas.  Let me know what you think.

Thanks/Boggy
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 05:54:34 PM by boggy »
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barenekd

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 06:51:07 PM »
It could be a few things, a sunken float, or leaking float needle would be my first places to look as it sounds like you are way too rich. Is your needle at its lowest or highest setting? it's hard to tell from your description.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 08:31:22 PM »
I had to search back in some threads - Needle is in the top notch, so at it's lowest point.  Last year I had to adjust the height of my float bowl which was bogging out and set it to 19mm (I believe) as was recommended by everyone with a PWK 30mm flat-slide.

Wondering how my float could change since then. Perhaps it's stuck.
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ace.cafe

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 08:37:13 PM »
I'm betting that the rubber hose between the carb and the manifold has some kind of air leak in it. A tear, or a pinhole, or some failure that's letting air in.
What's happening to your bike is a classic symptom of that hose getting a hole in it.
The fuel with the ethanol in it eats that rubber away, and then it leaks air, and the engine runs bad, if it even runs at all after that happens.
It can be a sporadic thing too, if the air leak is small and sometimes it seals and sometimes it doesn't.

* I just saw you have the PWK 30, and I don't know if that uses the hose connector or not. If it doesn't, then disregard the above.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 08:41:18 PM by ace.cafe »
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 09:05:52 PM »
Ace,
Yah, PWK is carb body right to engine.  Metal to metal, gasket in between.  Possible leak there maybe?  What about my fuel line from my petcock to the carb?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 09:10:09 PM by boggy »
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ace.cafe

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 10:04:15 PM »
It's hard to say. It could be a lot of things.
Probably the best thing to do is yank off the whole intake system and check it out thoroughly, clean it, and use new gaskets when you put it back on.
Drain some gas out of the tank to be sure that there's no water laying in the bottom of the fuel tank, causing problems.
Clean the petcock and fuel line to be be sure it is flowing a decent amount.
Give the whole carb a good disassembly and cleaning, and make sure all passages are clear and clean and that the float level is good.

Check the air filter for flow, and there shouldn't be much left unturned after that.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 10:26:09 PM »
OK, thanks for the list Ace.  Hopefully just a sticky float bowl or something.

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:33 PM »
While you have the carb off, check the flatness of the mounting flange using a piece of glass or a good steel straight edge.

I've seen the "ears" on some carbs bent leaving the bolts tight but a pronounced gap between them where the air passage is.
With a flat gasket in place, the carb can look tightly mounted but still have a bad leak into the engines inlet duct.
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barenekd

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 11:29:21 PM »
Floats can change. If it's a metal one, they can develop leaks at the solder joints. If it's foam, they can get a leak in the outer skin and absorb gas. I've had it happen personally in both types, and seen it on several others. It's fairly rare, but it's become one of the first things I look at.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 01:00:50 AM »
I'll check for both of these things.  Thanks guys.
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 07:01:13 PM »
boggy,

On your PWK 30mm flat-slide carb flange there is a grove for a 'O' ring, ensure the 'O' ring is in good shape and seated in this grove, I use a heavy weight grease to hold the 'O' ring in place, this 'O' ring can slip out of it's grove when mounting the carb and cause a leak.  Also check the gasket that goes between the carb and 'O' ring, and the intake manifold on the head.  If the 'O' ring or gasket are not in go shape or the 'O' ring has slipped when mounting the carb, it will give you some of the symptoms you are having.  Just a thought.   Good luck with your project.

Check this web sight out:
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/tech/pdf-files/jrc-flatside-carburetor-install-guide.pdf

Cheers,
Bill       
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 08:28:28 PM by Bill Harris »

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 08:25:46 PM »
I'll check that out too.  I believe the last time I had the carb off (last Fall) I put on a new gasket and o-ring but I'll have to double check, and give them a good once/twice-over.  I'll have to pick up some grease as well.  Just on the o-ring or on the gasket too?

(Getting to this next week).

Thanks Bill.
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 08:35:07 PM »
boggy,

Use grease just on the 'O' ring.

Check this web sight out:
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/tech/pdf-files/jrc-flatside-carburetor-install-guide.pdf

Cheers,
Bill
 

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 12:34:25 AM »
Thanks Bill. Hey, while I have your attention:
When I bought my AVL second hand, it came with the PWK.  On the opposite side of the idle-screw is a hole that I have highlighted in the attached image.  It was sealed with epoxy when I received the bike.  When I first started getting my rich bog, I thought the epoxy might have a hole in it so I removed it and put in an extra idle-screw and screwed it in tight.  It didn't fix anything but as my carb was running great all year I've not taken it out.  Do you have that hole plugged on your PWK? Or is it wide open?  It's open in this pic.

Thanks. Boggy
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 02:37:47 AM »
Thanks Bill. Hey, while I have your attention:
When I bought my AVL second hand, it came with the PWK.  On the opposite side of the idle-screw is a hole that I have highlighted in the attached image.  It was sealed with epoxy when I received the bike.  When I first started getting my rich bog, I thought the epoxy might have a hole in it so I removed it and put in an extra idle-screw and screwed it in tight.  It didn't fix anything but as my carb was running great all year I've not taken it out.  Do you have that hole plugged on your PWK? Or is it wide open?  It's open in this pic.

Thanks. Boggy

boggy,

At that location my PWK has a small brass screw in the hole.

Cheers,
Bill
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 02:53:22 AM by Bill Harris »

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 09:58:27 PM »
Cracked flange.

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TWinOKC

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 09:32:49 PM »
Glad you sorted it out.  What would make it crack like that?  Its just a spacer, it is not under pressure?  Maybe its just vibration?
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« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 12:20:11 AM by Bill Harris »

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 01:18:55 AM »
Not sure, TWin.  I've had that carb off so many time perhaps it got knocked around at some point.  2nd hand too so who knows.

Thanks Bill.  I called Tim at NField gear and he is checking into JRC for me. 

Boggy
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2012, 08:39:29 PM »
boggy,

How is your quest for a new PWK carburetor flange going?

Royal Enfield people are good people.

Cheers,
Bill

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2012, 04:57:45 PM »
Hey Bill, thanks for asking.

NField gear has an order in through JRC. Its been a few weeks though and I suspect it'll be a few weeks more. Its a short season in New England so being out a month on the tail end of ridable weather is a huge bummer. I probably could have cut out the middle man but I thought I'd give NField the business.

It's tough when a small piece of metal prevents you from riding but that's moto-life. Part of the reason I purchased a DRZ this Spring so Id have that second option but some scum bag thief had other ideas for my summer.

Ill post an update as soon as the metal comes in. Until then, take a spin for me.

Thanks again,
Boggy.
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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2012, 06:39:21 PM »
It does not look beyond repair either.

Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2012, 03:28:28 PM »
Hey Bill, thanks for asking.

NField gear has an order in through JRC. Its been a few weeks though and I suspect it'll be a few weeks more. Its a short season in New England so being out a month on the tail end of ridable weather is a huge bummer. I probably could have cut out the middle man but I thought I'd give NField the business.

It's tough when a small piece of metal prevents you from riding but that's moto-life. Part of the reason I purchased a DRZ this Spring so Id have that second option but some scum bag thief had other ideas for my summer.

Ill post an update as soon as the metal comes in. Until then, take a spin for me.

Thanks again,
Boggy.

Boggy,

You know I will.  I ride all year long and in all weather.

It's good to give nfieldgear our support and business.  Hope you get your part soon and I hope that thief's karma has got him good too.

Cheers,
Bill
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 02:22:34 AM by Bill Harris »

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 04:36:42 PM »
Unfortunately, after all that waiting I did not receive everything I needed.  There is a ring that goes around the carb that the flange sits over.  The old one was trashed. 

Rather than wait another month for a piece of rubber, does anyone have any suggestions?  Here's a pic of where it should go. Thanks.

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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 03:40:18 AM »
Boggy,

I've never had the flange adapter off my PWK carburetor, so I don't know what goes in that grove.  Could it be an "O" ring or gasoline proof sealant of some type?  Perhaps you could ask nfieldgear what goes in there and if they don't know, ask JRC Engineering.  Maybe It's something you can get at your local auto parts store.  Good luck and I hope it won't take so long this time.

Cheers,
Bill     

Ice

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 06:44:31 AM »
Brother boggy,

Can CMW send you the right O-ring ASAP ?

 How thick is the flange ? How snug is the fit of the new flange on the carb spigot ?
 
If you want to do away with the set screw to make the flange mounting stress free and permanent you could J-B weld it on the carb spigot if the two fit reasonably close.

Don't laugh. J-B weld is completely fuel proof.
The float bowl on my Iron barrel is coated with the stuff inside and out.

The flange on the Evo CV carb for my shovel head is J-B welded like that. ( a common update for shovel heads twenty years ago)
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 08:39:40 PM »
Bill, I have calls into both NField and JRC, but I doubt NField has it in stock. If JRC does, I'll definitely have to get it sent direct.

Ice, the fit is so tight I now know how the last one cracked.  I'm not sure it's even going to go on.  It'll need "persuasion" for sure.  I think my next step would be to raise the white flag on this now VERY expensive PWK carb and go with a Mikuni.  Should have done it last year when NFIeld had them on sale and saved myself probably 2 months of riding + a all the cash trying to tune it and keep it attached!  The parts are cheap but the shipping and time lost has added up.  Ahh, the cost of education.

Thanks guys.  Hoping for a warm November.
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 08:59:52 PM »
Boggy,

What size are you getting?  Mikuni is a good carburetor.  Let us know how you like it and the jetting you use?  Good luck and have fun with your project.  :-)

Royal Enfield people are good people.

Cheers,
Bill

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 09:03:23 PM »
Ace uses the 32mm for his Fireballs and spoke favorably of them.  I think I'd try that.  I might even start with his settings which I do have saved somewhere.  The idea of tuning another carb is a bit stressful after finally getting mine dialed in but something I could tackle in the Spring.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2012, 07:59:14 PM »
Don't laugh. J-B weld is completely fuel proof.

Ice, I'm officially not laughing...  The word from JRC engineering is that they use JB Weld in that groove. I must have mistook the old JB Weld for a destroyed gasket.

So that's great news.  Tim at NField gear was super helpful as usual and the guys at JRC were extremely responsive via email.  Never used JB Weld before but I'm hoping to be back on the road shortly!  That will be a good feeling. 
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Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2012, 08:30:24 PM »
Boggy,

Good job!  We all know now what goes in that grove because of your persistent detective work!  Thanks, and get that carburetor back on your bike and go riding!   ;)  :)

Royal Enfield people are good people!

Cheers,
Bill     

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2012, 03:33:50 AM »
If you want to do away with the set screw to make the flange mounting stress free and permanent you could J-B weld it on the carb spigot if the two fit reasonably close.

Don't laugh. J-B weld is completely fuel proof.
The float bowl on my Iron barrel is coated with the stuff inside and out.

I was gonna suggest metal epoxy when I saw that cracked flange... but I figured I'd get boo'd outta here.  I've used it quite a bit and it's great stuff, sometimes works even better than doing it the "right" way, IMO.

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2012, 05:41:54 PM »
In hind site, LarsBloodbeard, I would have just tried JB Welding the crack in the Flange. I'd have been riding for a month now and I bet it'd have gotten me through the season.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2012, 09:11:42 PM »
Update - The new Flange has made zero difference in the problem.  Not better, not worse. Exactly the same. 

Fuel lines are clean. Air and fuel filter are clean. Float bowl height is spot on.  I'm completely at a loss.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:50:40 AM by boggy »
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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 12:40:41 AM »
Boggy,

Have you checked and cleaned your bike's breather hoses and catch can?  If they are clogged your engine will not run good at all.  Just a thought.

Cheers,
Bill

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 01:49:48 AM »
No I haven't, Bill.  I'll have to run through that this weekend and see if it's clogged up.  Thanks for the idea.  I haven't been through the breather hoses and catch can before.  I did overfill with oil in early Summer and spit quite a bit out.  Maybe things are all gummed up.

I'm curious too if a slight exhaust leak could cause this too.

I'll do some forum searches, but any tips on going through the breather + can are appreciated.

Thanks.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 02:08:32 PM by boggy »
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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2012, 01:18:27 AM »
Boggy,

Just remove all breather hoses and the catch can from the bike, use some diesel fuel or solvent on a rag and clean out the catch can and hoses.  You can use a coat hanger to push the solvent soaked rag through the hoses.  Then put everything back on the motorcycle.

I don't think a slight exhaust leak would cause your motorcycle engine to run bad. 

I would also recheck that "O" ring on the carburetor flange.  It comes out really easy when mounting the carb and if it's out, just a little bit, you'll get an air leak and the engine will run poorly just like you described.     

Cheers,
Bill 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 01:54:56 AM by Bill Harris »

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2012, 05:44:52 PM »
The breather hose that goes to the carb, disconnect it and just cap off the carb spigot. You can remove all that stuff now. Run a breather hose from the crankcase up under the seat and to the rear of the bike. Put a filter or duckbill on it if you wish. Just one less potential problem with the bike.
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boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2012, 06:43:16 PM »
I would also recheck that "O" ring on the carburetor flange.  It comes out really easy when mounting the carb and if it's out, just a little bit, you'll get an air leak and the engine will run poorly just like you described.

The guys at JRC told me to use either the little black o-ring gasket that sits IN the flange OR the regular style gasket that sits flush between the flange and the engine.  I tried the regular style gasket. Maybe I should try the little o-ring one.  Or both. What do you recommend using on the regular gasket to ensure a good seal? All purpose grease?

The breather hose that goes to the carb, disconnect it and just cap off the carb spigot.

Hmm, the only hose that goes into my carb is the fuel line.
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LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »
Hmm, the only hose that goes into my carb is the fuel line.
It probably goes to the airbox.

Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2012, 11:53:24 PM »
Boggy,

The breather hoses that go from the top of the oil tank just in back of your engine cylinder to the catch can under the seat and from the catch can to the back of the timing chest (the big bump just in front of where you add engine oil).  These two hoses and the catch can need to be cleaned every once in awhile, especially in cold damp weather.  The hose that goes from the oil tank to the catch can is the worst offender.

I use the gasket and the "O" ring.  Without the "O" ring mine will suck air and run just terrible.  Use grease only on the "O" ring to keep it in place, in the grove, when installing the carburetor to the cylinder head.

If these don't work to make your bike run better, maybe it's time for your Royal Enfield motorcycle shop to take a look.  It's good to support your local motorcycle shop. 

Royal Enfield motorcycle shop people are good people.  The good people at Vince's Motorcycle Store in Lacey, Washington work on my motorcycle.  ;)

Cheers,
Bill                   
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 03:57:45 PM by Bill Harris »

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2012, 09:24:31 PM »
Have you checked and cleaned your bike's breather hoses and catch can?  If they are clogged your engine will not run good at all.  Just a thought.

Cheers,
Bill

Thanks for that suggestion Bill.  The hose coming from the can was crimped.  Check out the picture.  That's enough to keep things from running.  I cut of an inch and it idled steady when it kicked over.

Funny thing was I was bogging out on throttle really bad.  Drained the float again and was going to take the carb off again and the main jet fell out.  I fiddled with that carb so much and must have not have screwed it in well.  Back in, back on and things were finally back to normal.  Great, great feeling to crack that throttle open.

Thanks very much Bill, and everyone for the help.  Thank you for sticking with me on this one.  It was a frustrating challenge but I've learned one more thing about keeping things running.  We'll see how many high 30 low 40 degree commutes home I can take before I have to surrender to Winter.

Boggy
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 09:26:52 PM by boggy »
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

Bill Harris

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2012, 12:52:22 AM »
Boggy,

Good job.  Glad your bike is back to normal and running proper.  Life is good and all is right with the world!  :)

Cheers,
Bill

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2012, 10:49:31 PM »
It is.  90 minute test ride today and all is good.  I've always noticed that 50 degree temps seem to agree with this bike.  Really great to be back on two wheels.  Thanks.
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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2012, 07:19:32 PM »
Glad it worked out for you. There is no better feeling than a sorted out bullet.
Your probably have it jetted slightly rich, about right for the 50 degree weather.

boggy

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2012, 09:47:42 PM »
Yup. Definitely.  I got that PWK to run well, but a little rich.  Trying to tune out that last bit of richness meant tipping the scales to not running well.  Maybe a slightly lower (or higher? Can't recall which way) main jet would do it.  Plugs get black. Not terribly sooty, but black.  Exhaust opening has quite a bit of black stuff on there too.  But like I said, when I try to tune out that last little bit I end up not running well.

I think most folks with these PWKs have mentioned running a bit rich. 

And yah, a great feeling for sure.  Thanks.

*Hope you are doing ok in NYC with all the Hurricane madness.  What a mess.
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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2012, 10:12:15 PM »
I moved from NYC a few years ago. I would love to go back there again at some point . That city has 'Life'. There is no other way to explain it. You have to be there to know it. I have some family and friends back in the NYC area. They are all doing well. I have not heard back from Chumma but I hope he is doing well too.

Most driving is done on the needle/needle jet combination. If it is running well now I would not bother wtih it. There is only so much more you can get out of it...but come summer trying leaning the needle one notch . The main jet is best left a little rich.

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Re: Idling wild, and bogs opening throttle
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2012, 10:36:26 PM »
I spent months last year tuning the carb - That is why I was so thrown off by this issue but beyond relief that it wasn't the carb.

I have my current needle in the leanest spot and I have the next leanest needle size. I tried swapping it but it felt better with the richer one in the leanest spot.

Boy those PWKs are not easy to tune.  The whole carb needs to come off.  For the needle you CAN get away with removing the tank and unscrewing the top. For the main jet you CAN get away with draining the float and using the drain hole to access the jet.  Really you need to remove the whole kit to properly get at everything. 
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM