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Author Topic: E85  (Read 1578 times)

trimleyman

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E85
« on: October 07, 2012, 10:42:32 PM »
Ok Gents and Ladies, This may be an old topic.  Have checked the handbook for my 2011 G5 which tells me not to use methanol fuel. Recommended fuel being 87 RON (whoever he is) unleaded fuel.  So what about E85? Anyone tried it , uses it regularly, avoids it like the plague . I am considering it as at the moment 87 RON  (whoever the hell he is) is up to just shy of $5 a gallon in the San Francisco area of California.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5
Then:-
1978 Ducati 900 GTES
1969 Ducati 350 Desmo Racer
1972 Mototrans Ducati 250 24 Horas
1965 Triumph Tiger Cub 200
1967 BSA Bamtum

gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 11:24:01 PM »
dunno .....   good question.
I wonder what the CMW opinion is ?
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 11:27:23 PM »
" Research Octane Number "

The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


ace.cafe

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Re: E85
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 11:44:06 PM »
Don't use E85.
E85 is 85% alcohol.
Your bike isn't set up for it, and it will cook the bike by being way too lean.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 12:41:36 AM »
ACE -  he has a UCE with an O2 sensor....  the mixture will adapt. 

However ....  the hoses & fuel system elements may be partially dissolved by the aggressive solvent action of the ethanol.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


trimleyman

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Re: E85
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 12:57:01 AM »
Gremlin, it's that latter that I wondered about as alcohol fuels tend not to like plastics and rubber. I thought I read somewhere that some folks only have E85 in their areas (may not be the USA) and were forced to use it in their UCE Enfields without issues. But I don't like uncertainties where combustible fuel issues are concerned. Hence the questions. I also wonder what CMW would have to say and Enfield India for that matter.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5
Then:-
1978 Ducati 900 GTES
1969 Ducati 350 Desmo Racer
1972 Mototrans Ducati 250 24 Horas
1965 Triumph Tiger Cub 200
1967 BSA Bamtum

ace.cafe

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Re: E85
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 01:06:27 AM »
ACE -  he has a UCE with an O2 sensor....  the mixture will adapt. 

However ....  the hoses & fuel system elements may be partially dissolved by the aggressive solvent action of the ethanol.

E85 requires that the mixture be at least 30% richer than with gasoline.
I have a hard time believing that the stock injectors can have that much latitude. I dunno, maybe it's a part of the California kit, or something.
However, I don't think it will do him much good for economy, since he'll get 30% worse fuel mileage.

Also, we have built E85 bikes with carbs, and the amount of destruction done to the aluminum carb in just one year would shock you.

The entire ethanol thing is a total fiasco, IMO.
It is okay if you are going to race, and you need the alcohol to run the extra high compression. Other than that, it's worthless.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 01:12:31 AM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
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gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 01:33:10 AM »
50%  E85 + 50%  E15  =  E50

I ran that mix in my 96 cherokee for years without any issues.
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


GlennF

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Re: E85
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 01:54:45 AM »
In Australia its banned for aircraft and marine use.

Also ethanol fuel apparently reduces the life of two stroke engines substantially.

Arizoni

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Re: E85
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2012, 10:47:29 PM »
Currently the only fuel in my area has 10 percent alcohol and 90 percent gasoline.
It works OK in my vehicles but something that is 85% alcohol would be pure shit in my book.

The only thing I find in my 2011 G5 Owners Manual about alcohol fuel is

"Fuels containing methanol should not be used as it can cause damage to the fuel system components"

That pretty much screws anyone who owns a RE in my area if they want to live by the "book".

As for the numbers shown on a fuel pump, here is a pretty good explanation of what they mean

"Gasoline pumps typically post octane numbers as an average of two different values. Often you may see the octane rating quoted as (R+M)/2. One value is the research octane number (RON), which is determined with a test engine running at a low speed of 600 rpm. The other value is the motor octane number (MON), which is determined with a test engine running at a higher speed of 900 rpm. If, for example, a gasoline has an RON of 98 and a MON of 90, then the posted octane number would be the average of the two values or 94. "

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa070401a_2.htm

The RE Owners Manual says 87 RON is the minimum so I think if the number is larger than 87, even if it is the (R+M)/2 it should work fine.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 10:52:10 PM by Arizoni »
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2012, 11:06:18 PM »
Just another nit to pick......

methanol =/= ethanol

in regular pump gas the MTBE additive is methanol.
the alcohol in E85 is NOT methanol.
 
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


Arizoni

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Re: E85
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2012, 11:18:53 PM »
Actually, the whole subject pi$$es me off.

It is a "bill of goods" being sold to an ignorant congress (and public) in the interest of the corn farmers (and other crop suppliers) and the companies that make alcohol.
It will do absolutely nothing to reduce our need for oil,  to reduce our independence on the world market or to clean up the 'dirty air'.

In other words it is a classic rip off designed to make billions of dollars for a limited few that have control of the market.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

gremlin

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Re: E85
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2012, 11:32:59 PM »
It is a "bill of goods" being sold to an ignorant congress

True, that !

More than one study has concluded ethanol as fuel needs more energy to create than it delivers to the motoring public.

It is more brown than green !
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


jartist

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Re: E85
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2012, 02:39:12 AM »
So true!  Using close to the same oil to produce ETOH instead of food, all for a government welfare program that benifits the rich!  It's a bipartisan SCAM btw!!!  Many people around the globe will starve to death so that a few people can get richer.  How do people sleep at night?

Lwt Big Cheese

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Re: E85
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2012, 10:46:19 AM »
Fuel is so cheap over there I can't believe you're worried!
 ::)

Approaching 1:50 a litre here!
 >:(
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: E85
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2012, 01:36:22 PM »
It's just the silliness of it that bugs us.  Using petroleum and coal powered vehicles, equipment, and plants to grow corn and process it into alcohol.  The best figure I've heard is that we get a 20% increase in overall energy.  I'm guessing that's a best case scenario.  No doubt alcohol is a cleaner burning fuel than petroleum but the way we are trying to produce and use it is not a viable energy plan.  It may have started out as a sincere effort to produce alternative fuels but at this point it's just a public relations dog and pony show for politicians to gain favor with the states that vote first in our primary elections.

You won't hear me complain about the price of fuel in the US, I know what the rest of the world pays.

Scott

Arizoni

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Re: E85
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2012, 07:55:24 PM »
Cost does come into my dislike for alcohol fuels and it is a real concern.

Because alcohol only has about 2/3 of the energy per gallon, people using it as a fuel can expect to see their fuel mileage drop 30 percent.
The 75 mpg or 32 Kilometers/liter our Royal Enfields deliver will drop to 50 mpg or 21 Km/ltr.
Of course, the tax per gallon will remain unchanged so in effect the Government will see a 33 percent increase in the tax revenue it gets.  (I wonder why the Government doesn't tell us about this major benefit?)

There is also the issue with the nature of alcohol.  It loves water.
It can suck the moisture right out of the air and this added water can easily corrode the metal parts in the fuel system.  It also can break down the rubber and plastic parts it touches causing them to fail.
Sounds like a neat "make jobs" tool until one realizes that they will have to pay to have those parts replaced by the mechanic.

As I mentioned, I consider the use of alcohol as a motor fuel to be a giant rip off of anyone who is forced to use the stuff.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Ice

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Re: E85
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2012, 09:57:12 PM »
 It's not just a rip off at the pump its a tax payer funded rip off from the beginning to end.
 
 The hefty tax payer funded grants, subsidies and tax breaks to produce the stuff before a single molecule of alcohol even gets within a hundred miles of the gasoline that is going to be diluted with the stuff boggles the mind.

 That's before the pump.

 On the nozzle end of the pump roughly sixty cents of the cost of every gallon is for the 12.8 ounces of alcohol used to cut the fuel.

 Add the costs of upgraded materials in newer vehicles that alcohol requires and you pay more on the car lot.




Forget about monetary costs for a moment.

 How many gallons of water does it take to irrigate corn to maturity and then turn it into fuel ?
 
 Does the sum of the energy consumed in the production and distribution of the alcohol equal the energy content of the finished product ?

 Is the carbon produced in the process really less than the amount of carbon reduction at the motorists tail pipe ?

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

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trimleyman

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Re: E85
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 01:09:37 AM »
Ice. The answer to you question is a resounding no. There is no logical justification for the production of alcohol fuels from food stocks. If it were from waste then that might be more realistic but it is not. Even hydrogen as an alternative fuel is as yet not cost effective.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5
Then:-
1978 Ducati 900 GTES
1969 Ducati 350 Desmo Racer
1972 Mototrans Ducati 250 24 Horas
1965 Triumph Tiger Cub 200
1967 BSA Bamtum

Desi Bike

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Re: E85
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 04:05:26 PM »
From my work at one of the big three auto makers in north america, I can state that use of E85 fuel will void your warranty if the vehicle is not designed to use it. The vehicles that can use the stuff will have a yellow fuel cap and be labled as able to use E85. Avoid the fuel at all costs in our bikes and everything else that takes fuel other than vehicles designed yo use it.
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AwL

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Re: E85
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 03:38:34 AM »
According to US Dept of Energy Alternative Fuels Data Center "E85 is a high-level gasoline-ethanol blend containing 51% to 83% ethanol, depending on geography and season".    Fortunately around here  (Washington state) the blend has been only "E10" which is 10% ethanol.  I've been adding Sta-Bil Marine Formula "Ethanol treatment" additive anyway, not knowing whether or not it acutally helps....   Recently the pumps at the local  feed store have ethanol-free gas.  To find ethanol-free gas go to www.puregas.org for list of stations in US & Canada.   Al

saint45

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Re: E85
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 05:55:28 PM »
While we are on the subject. Ive always used 91 in my bikes. Is it overkill?
THX

Ducati Scotty

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Re: E85
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 06:26:48 PM »
Probably.  I run regular with no issues.  But like picking a brand/type of oil, if it makes you sleep better, no harm done :)

Scott

mattsz

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Re: E85
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2012, 12:42:39 AM »
To find ethanol-free gas go to www.puregas.org for list of stations in US & Canada.   Al

Try "http://pure-gas.org/"

Very interesting.  In Maine, it's all marinas and airports.  And all 91 octane...

The_Rigger

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Re: E85
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2012, 03:02:29 PM »
Fuel is so cheap over there I can't believe you're worried!

We'd like to keep it that way.
-Dave
2012 C5 Special
Central Michigan, USA (when I'm not working somewhere else)

The_Rigger

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Re: E85
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2012, 03:09:40 PM »
My car requires at least 91 octane unleaded, and I've been burning top-tier gas in it since Day One (Shell 93 octane "V-Power," FWIW)... I'll only put top-tier gas in Fiona, too, and never anything more than 10% ethanol (and then, only because we can't get uncut gasoline where I live).  This new rule about the 4-gallon-minimum sale is a trifle annoying, too, to say the least. I don't buy anything from gas stations that sell 15% gasohol.
-Dave
2012 C5 Special
Central Michigan, USA (when I'm not working somewhere else)

GreenMachine

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Re: E85
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2012, 04:01:57 PM »
The_Rigger: BMW recommends top tier fuel for their vehicles and I suspect other manufacturing companies fall into that category (High performance Engines)..Interesting how the ethanol is not mixed at the refinery but at the distribution points to cut down possible water absorption issues (So I have read)..The problem is how its mixed and is the ratio correct as indicated at the pump..Some states are not required to even show the amount on the pump. I don't believe the stations are responsible for improperly mixed fuels. It is my understanding that this ultimately falls back on the users and fuel producers. The auto industry is not responsible if your vehicle develops problems due to inaccurate ethanol/gas ratios. I think the sticker really means "No more than 10%"...
I notice that seafoam and few other products use a ethanol base in their product which can raise the percentage even higher in your tank..Chevron fuel and stabil treatment products supposely do not and it's a mix bag on some of the others..The article suggest that if you were at 10%, you would in theory being adding more ethanol in the tank...Interesting read on PureGas website..
Oh Magoo you done it again