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Author Topic: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle  (Read 4135 times)

wernwilk

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Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« on: October 09, 2012, 08:41:11 PM »
Hello all,

new to the forum, I have a family member who is not too mechanically inclined who has a 2003 enfield bullet 500.  (Not a good combination I know).

Anyway, as the 'family wrench' I have been landed with the job of diagnosing and hopefully fixing the problem.

i know there is a lot of knowledge on this site and wanted to know what to look for specifically on this motor.
I was going to do the standard compression test then inspect the rings and valves.

Is there anything else I can do to rule out or indicate the fault here please?

Many thanks.

 

ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2012, 09:31:03 PM »
Well, the lack of clues leaves it pretty wide open.

The gray smoke could be as simple as being too rich.
The rattle could be the normal noise from the valve lash, because we have solid lifters which have .012" lash when they are hot. They make noise.

We don't really know for sure if anything is actually wrong with it.
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LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2012, 10:19:42 PM »
What does the spark plug look like?  Does the smoke go away after a minute?

PiggyPup

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 03:12:39 PM »
Well, I can tell you that this is a similar situation to what I had recently, and my new friend Chumma got to the bottom of it quickly and effectively remedied the problem.

My valves were simply too loose, and that was the reason for the excessive rattle, as well as the gray smoke that was the result of unburned fuel from every power stroke.

My Daphne now runs better than ever.

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 05:00:22 PM »
Thanks for the tips so far...I have received the bike to look at and once the battery is fully charged I will run the bike and see how it sounds.

Interesting to note that no one thought the worst when I mentioned the rattle and smoke.....good to know.

Out of interest, does anyone have a rough idea of what the compression should be on one of these?


barenekd

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 11:04:42 PM »
Quote
Out of interest, does anyone have a rough idea of what the compression should be on one of these?

140ish seems pretty common.
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 07:49:29 PM »
thanks all for the great feedback.
I am afraid I have been slacking and have just got the bike fired up...first thing to address is the terrible exhaust blow at the exhaust port....with that quietened down I could listen to the motor, (he forgot to mention that....or that could even be the entire issue)!!

I did notice on exhaust removal that its a simple clamp at the head of the pipe...it does not however seem to attach to the engine head in any way and seems to just butt up against it....is that normal?

Thanks fella's.

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 10:28:15 PM »
I did notice on exhaust removal that its a simple clamp at the head of the pipe...it does not however seem to attach to the engine head in any way and seems to just butt up against it....is that normal?

That is correct.  The exhaust pipe kind of just jams in there.  The clamp is really not that useful, though many people put them on.

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 02:16:55 AM »
interesting...well whatever the clamp does I now have to find another one as this one snapped today....whoops!!

Anyone know where I can get one and other Enfield parts?

Thanks.

Arizoni

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 03:09:26 AM »
Call Nfieldgear at 1-800-358-0938

They will know what you need and if they have the part they'll get a new part sent to you.
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 03:15:39 PM »
If the exhaust is leaking at the joint to the head the money for that clamp would be better spent on a medium pipe expander and rubber mallet to fix the leak.  The clamp is not functional.
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 10:09:25 PM »
Okay,

update, performed the compression test, comes in at around 60...not good!!

The plug is oily and coked up...I removed the rocker covers and noticed there is no clearance on the exhaust valve....this would explain the low compression right?
I could not see how to adjust the valve clearance...can anyone shed some light on that for me please.

If I get some clearance in the exhaust valve and the compression is still low....I am going to pull the head and barrel.
Any tips or tricks to this??

Thanks.

The Garbone

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 11:01:31 PM »
You have to check the valves using the tappet cover on the right side of the motor and not at the rocker blocks.

Pull the little cover so you can watch the pushrods. Use the kicker to slowly move the motor so the piston is at tdc and you will see that both pushrods will be in their lowest possible state.

Once at tdc and with the pushrods all the way down you set the gap by using the nut adjusters on the bottom of the pushrods.  Set them cold so that they spin freely but have zero up and down motion.

Just for fun here is a picture of my intake pushrod after it jumped off the tappet when I dropped my intake valve seat.  Not fun.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 11:06:07 PM by The Garbone »
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LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2012, 05:50:00 AM »
In that case, you might not want to worry about what the plug looks like until you sort out that the pushrod lengths are correct.  And as Garbone pointed out, this is not done at the head.  Adjust the lengths so that you can't move them vertically, but you can rotate them (by hand).  Doing this adjustment requires 3 wrenches.  One to keep the rod from spinning (top nut), one to loosen the stay nut (the small one in the middle), and one to hold/adjust the cup (nut at the bottom).  It may seem like an exercise in futility till you get used to doing it.

ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 12:54:45 PM »
Okay, I have to catch up  a little here.

The exhaust leak will need to be fixed. We have methods for this.
And that finned exhaust "clamp" is nothing more than a visual accessory. It never came with the bikes, and it doesn't do anything. Some people like the looks. You can leave it off.

But for now, we need to to do a wet compression test, to see if the low compression reading is from valves or rings. You have a 60psi figure now, which I assume was taken with a few crank-overs with the throttle WIDE OPEN. That is important.

Normal compression on the regular Iron Barrel Bullets is around 110psi.

So, then we read that you have oily plug and stuff, and low compression, so we want to see if it's rings or valves. Take out the spark plug and drop about tablespoon, or two , of engine oil down into the cylinder, thru the spark plug hole. Put the compression gauge back on it, and do another compression check. If the compression comes up around 90-100psi, then you have ring problems. If it only goes up a little bit, then it's probably valve issues. It's going to go up a little bit in any case, because the oil will seal any rings a little better, and make the compression about 5-10psi higher. It's a bigger increase that you're looking for.

So, once you have that info, you can proceed.

Sometimes taking the head off can be difficult, and sometimes taking the barrel off can be difficult. But, other times it's easy. So, just have a go at removing the top end, if for nothing else than a de-coke, and have a look at all that is in there.
If you can't get something off, just ask.

DO NOT hammer or lever on any fins. Ask here for the accepted techniques to get these things off, if you have trouble. The fins will break off very easily, so don't whack on them.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 12:59:17 PM by ace.cafe »
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 04:07:08 PM »
great advice guys, thanks.  I will proceed in this order;

1) wet compression test with throttle wide open.
2) valve clearances by method given in text

Then I will post the results/findings and from there probably remove the top end to see for myself what is occuring.

I'll be back with findings.

Thanks.

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 09:08:19 PM »
Hi,
an update.  Firstly thanks for all the great advice and help, its much appreciated.
Ok, so I re-did the dry compression test....this time with WOT, it came in at 115psi....I feel an idiot for doing it with the throttle closed to start with!!  Not sure what I was thinking.

So Dry test = 115 psi and the wet test =145 psi

I checked the valve clearances and the push rods spun freely with the piston at tdc without any up and down play.

So, this sounds like a healthy motor right?
Perhaps the problem that was reported to me was in fact the exhaust blowing worse and worse.  When I took a look into the exhaust port I did notice some oil on the exhaust valve stem....would this indicate valve guide oil seal failure....and could perhaps explain the smoke?

Not sure where to go from here until the exhaust is sealed some more and then I can hear what the 'engine noise' was supposed to be?

Any other suggestions while I'm in here.  I am hesitant now to pull the head and barrell as the rings and valves check out on the compression test?

Thanks again. 

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 09:36:37 PM »
Burnt oil being especially prevalent around the valve guide and forming a flowing pattern in the direction of air flow definitely would be a leaky valve guide seal.  See if you can shine a flashlight into the exhaust port and snap a pic for us. 
If that is the case it's not a huge deal.  Grab a new set of guides and toss the head at your favorite machinist.  Should be cheap (maybe $50?) for them to pop out the valves and install new guides and do a valve job.

Lwt Big Cheese

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2012, 01:44:38 PM »
Does this bike run?

If so, I'd be tempted to ride it and forget these things until:
a) They get worse
b) You realise that it will never run like a japanese sewing machine.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2012, 02:46:41 PM »
Yes, I would ask this:  Exactly HOW freely do they spin?  If you look at an earlier post of mine, you will see that I had mine adjusted so there was no up and down movement, but they spun VERY freely.  This led to the exact conditions you have mentioned, but when Chumma adjusted mine so that the spin was a bit less, the bike quieted down, stopped spitting gray smoke, and it has more power now than ever.

ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 03:33:21 PM »
From that compression test report, it seems to me that you might have a high compression piston in that engine. A normal Bullet will not blow 145 psi on a compression test, wet or not.
I would have a look into that cylinder to see what kind of piston is in there. It could make a big difference.

As for the wet exhaust valve, it might have a leaky stem seal, if it in fact even has any stem seals.

What year is this bike?
What is the history of it?
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 05:08:23 PM »
I'll try and answer the questions as they came in;

- yes the bike runs, starts ok and has started to make more engine noise and blow some gray smoke which clears a little as the bike gets warm.

- the bike is a 2003 bullet, 2nd owner who is a novice rider and began his riding career on the Enfield, (brave soul).

- The pushrods spin quite freely to the touch...is this too freely, if there should be more resistance how much?

If I go ahead and tear down the top end, are gaskets etc readily available?  Also, what is the fix for the blowing exhaust mainfold please?

Thanks, you've all been great.

The Garbone

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 05:48:41 PM »
Spin sounds good as long as there is no movement. 

I would ride it a bit and check oil usage.  Does not sound like a show stopper,  maybe a little rich.
Gary
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 05:56:56 PM »
I have attached a photo of the exhaust valve from outside the head...it may not show it too well but there is definately evidence of oil there, however it was more evident before the compression test.

Considering the compression I got (115 dry and 145 wet) I am thinking that I will do the following;

- Adjust the valve clearances a little so that the pushrods do not spin so freely...(at present they spin very easily to touch but no up and down play)
- fix the exhaust manifold blow and listen to the engine easier...any advice on this fella's?
- ride the bike and give it a good test to see if I can hear the noise that my friend is talking about.

I could strip down the head but I am thinking that if the piston and rings are in decent condition, (i.e; the positive compression tests), and the engine is basically sound it should be safe to ride.

Again, all and any help most appreciated guys.

ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2012, 06:10:41 PM »
The exhaust port looks fairly normal.

There are 3 basic ways to fix the exhaust leak.
#1) Get a muffler expanding cone and use it to expand the header pipe to be a better fit in your head.
#2) Use some thin sheet metal(like a beer can) and cut a piece to wrap around your header, where it goes into the head. This fills the gap.
#3) Use some glop like silicone sealer to fill the gaps. Then let it sit for 24 hours to cure, before using the bike. This will need to be re-done periodically.

Yes, gaskets are readily available if you want to tear down. It would be nice to know what piston you have in there.
Your compression test showing 115 psi dry, and 145 psi wet, could indicate a high compression piston with bad rings.
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Lwt Big Cheese

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »
I believe you should be able to turn the pushrods with your fingers as apposed to spin freely.

Small point I know - and I may be wrong  ;D

Also, I believe these bikes have the ability to perform well with huge amounts of abuse. You may be striving for perfection when you just need OK.   ;)

That's why I suggest riding her a bit. If she performs OK then don't worry. If things are bad she'll tell you.
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2012, 07:43:45 PM »
Yeah, that looks like a leaky valve guide to me.  That would probably be the source of your smoke.  Overall the port looks good though.  It's not a huge deal, but I would fix it.

To answer your question about availability: parts are quite easy to come by.

Arizoni

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2012, 11:52:25 PM »
I would ride it as it is providing it doesn't lay down a cloud of smoke for more than 1/2 mile after starting it.

With the smoke (apparently) coming from the exhaust valve guide there is little chance of fouling anything except the grill on the car that's following too close.

If the smoke cloud is still there after riding a mile or more, the oil wiper ring would be suspect.

For now though, just ride it and enjoy. :)
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 06:56:30 PM »
again great advice guys.
I will be riding the bike to check on smoke amount and also oil usage.
Then depending on what is found I may strip the top end as required.
i will post results and findings as I get them.
Thanks for hanging in there with me fella's.

wernwilk

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UPDATE - Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2012, 01:14:37 AM »
Just an update - So I used a pipe expander to get a great fit at the manifold and cut down the excess noise.  I started the bike and it most certainly has a death rattle coming from the cylinder...a harsh sound that is for sure not the norm.

I will be tearing down the top end and seeing whats wrong.

Also, once i had turned the bike off, the starter was still engaged....not good.  Not sure if it was engaged the whole time but either way not gonna help it.  Ha anyone had this sort of starter issue/short before?

Thanks all.
 

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 02:35:12 AM »
Could the sound be from the starter or sprag assembly?  You could remove it and see if the noise goes away.
Gary
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ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2012, 07:29:33 AM »
This kind of starter system with a sprag could be broken/seized. That stuff could make some noise by itself.

There's no telling what any other noise might be at this point.
I'd say you definitely need to take off the primary chaincase cover and see if there are parts laying in the bottom. And probably you will need to take the whole primary off too, because that's what you have to do to repair the sprag or take the sprag off for deletion.
And that's just for working on the starter issue. I don't know if problems go deeper than that right now, or not.
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2012, 10:51:48 PM »
Gentlemen,

I am back with an update.  I am sorry this is so disjointed and so far apart but I have had very little time to look at the bike lately.

So I removed the primary cover, no broken teeth, parts or even shavings present. 
I removed the starter also and looked into the recess it sits, again teeth looked good to the eye.
I put my finger in there and the sprag gear turns smoothly and easily one way and not the other, (as I believe its supposed to).

again no sign of trauma in there...should I continue and pull the primary or does it sound like the sprag assembly is complete and not seized etc?

If I can rule this out I would more than likely tear the top end down.


LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2012, 11:26:04 PM »
I put my finger in there and the sprag gear turns smoothly and easily one way and not the other, (as I believe its supposed to).

again no sign of trauma in there...should I continue and pull the primary or does it sound like the sprag assembly is complete and not seized etc?

It sounds like it's functioning properly, though the noise could still be coming from somewhere in there.  Without hearing the noise for ourselves, it's hard to make a judgment call.  Unfortunately it's not easy to get inside there.  So I would just pull the head anyways.  That's easy, and you're gonna have to do it anyways if you want to get into the bowels of the engine -- if the problem does indeed wind up being in the lower unit.

Edit: Disregard what I said about having to remove the head to get to the sprag.  I was thinking it was inside the engine halves, but it is indeed on the outside.  Still, I think it's far easier to pull the head and take a peek in there rather than pull all the primary stuff.  To get my head off, I shoved a pair of fat dowels into the intake and exhaust ports then pulled up on those like handles, while giving it a wiggle, till it popped off.

I don't recommend this method of levering with random junk: http://youtu.be/M_WD5m9RKdM
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:40:26 PM by LarsBloodbeard »

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 04:40:08 PM »
I'll pull the head and Barrel and take a look.

I agree with the method for removing the head.....the video is fascinating but cringeworthy with the assortment of random items they seems to be prying that head off with!!
Once I get a chance to remove the top end I will report back.

Many thanks.

baird4444

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2012, 02:50:28 PM »
" I don't recommend this method of levering with random junk: http://youtu.be/M_WD5m9RKdM "

Let's hope you are lucky...  being loose but not popping up like the vid is very common. You may find yourself prying on the intake and exhaust port as well...
    before you pull the head you might consider starting it up with the primary cover off; you might better hear or even see the cause of the mystery noise.   
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« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 02:53:30 PM by baird4444 »
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2012, 12:15:45 PM »
Rubber mallets and patience are your friends.
Gary
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »
Hello all.

so I am removing the head and barrel from the 2003 bullet 500 I am working on for a family member....I am at the stage where it is stuck fast and no amount of blows upwards on the manifolds with a rubber mallet or wooden drift is working it loose....I will not be prying apart or tapping on any fins....are there any methods recommended for this removal?  I have seen something along the lines of two wooden dowls in each manifold but do not think I have the strength to prise it loose like this.....also I think there may have been something on here showing a puller system which looked fairly complex.

any help appreciated.

Thanks.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2012, 10:20:22 PM »
Wernwilk, there's a lot of methods, but first make sure you're not creating a suction.  Rotate the engine till one of the valves open up (if the engine isn't siezed), make sure the plug is out, and compressor.  If you still need leverage then take a 2x4, cut it at a height slightly higher than the exhaust port and you've got a nice fulcrum.  Jam the grip of a very large screwdriver into the port (not too far!) or other such instrument with a soft handle and lever with that.  You can rig up something similar on the other side too.

Or you could unscrew the head bolts from the base if you have the right tools, or the wrong tools and don't mind replacing the bolts.

Also, it might be worth a shot to simply kick it over and see if the compression pops it off.  ;D

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 05:33:36 AM »
Thanks for the reply,
I already have the pushrods out and the rocker arms off so turning the engine over wont open the valves I assume.

I will try the leverage on the ports and see how it goes.

I will also try the popping off from compression method...I assume I will need the plug in for this right?


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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 06:39:08 AM »
I was 4/5 of the way to trying to rig a rachet-strap arrangement to somehow pull my head off when I finally got it to pop via more conventional means...

Using compression sounds like an easy thing to try with nothing to lose.  Might loosen it up even if it doesn't break it free completely.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2012, 06:54:20 AM »
I'd get it To BDC then put in the plug and give it a kick.   Never tried this but it's something I was considering before i got mine to pop.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2012, 12:05:36 PM »
There are two main things which prevent the head from coming off.
If the head seems to be "glued" down to the barrel, and won't budge, then it probably IS glued to the barrel.
For this, you can take a very thin paint scraper or a thin blade knife, and very carefully tap it into the head gasket itself from the side, with a mallet. By tapping into the head gasket joint, it will break the seal of the head gasket sealing compound which sometimes is in there, and the head will release. You have to work the blade all the way around the whole engine, tapping it in to the head joint from all around, a little at a time. Eventually the head gasket will be destroyed from this process, and won't hold on anymore. Then the head will lift off.
You want to use a very thin blade, and try not to harm the aluminum surface of the head. You may get some scratches, but that's not any real problem. Just avoid gouging it. It works, and I have done it many times.

The other common issue is that it gets stuck on the head studs. This is usually because the washers used under the head nuts get squished when they got tightened-down, and now they bind against the studs, making it hard to get off.
You can either remove all the studs, or you can squirt some penetrating oil down the stud holes, and wiggle the head a little at a time, working it up the studs. Or, maybe only some of the studs will come out easily, and then you can take them out, and just wiggle it up the remaining studs.

Put new hardened washers in there stud holes when re-assembling, AFTER getting the old washers out first.

You can get the head off. It might take some effort and time, but between these two methods, I have never failed to get a head off.
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 02:03:29 AM »
Hello all.

so I am removing the head and barrel from the 2003 bullet 500 I am working on for a family member....I am at the stage where it is stuck fast and no amount of blows upwards on the manifolds with a rubber mallet or wooden drift is working it loose....I will not be prying apart or tapping on any fins....are there any methods recommended for this removal?  I have seen something along the lines of two wooden dowls in each manifold but do not think I have the strength to prise it loose like this.....also I think there may have been something on here showing a puller system which looked fairly complex.

any help appreciated.

Thanks.

Did you ever get that thing off?  Mine was being stubborn and I was trying to rush it.  After about 100 blows with my rubber mallet, I employed some creative leverage.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 05:49:54 AM »
I have not yet succeeded in getting the head off,  I have tried the following;

- Removed the head studds
- tapped all the way around the head gasket to try and remove the "glue" that seems to have cemented itself to the barrel
- hit the heck out of it with a rubber mallet
- used a section of broom as a drift against the underside of the manifolds
- tried a large dowel in each manifold to try and lever it free
- kicking the engine over from BDC to use the compression to free it
- used spacer block and a tire lever inside the manifolds with my upper body weight on it.....then with my foot and almost all my body weight on it.

Still nothing......I have never seen a head stuck like this and have worked on all manner of bikes over the last 20 years...still it hasn't budged one bit.

I am at a loss, I will try and rig up some leverage like shown on the forum here but surely that will not give more leverage than my entire bodyweight?

Not sure how best to proceed from here....as always...all tips welcomed!!

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 07:20:19 AM »
From someone who's only been working on bikes for a year, another guess:  re-try some of the above with the judicious application of some heat around the gasket?

Did Ace's razor blade method fail to cut into the gasket material???

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 03:07:59 PM »
give this a try...   you may not have to be exact but you get the idea....

http://www.moonshiners.org.uk/bulletheadgone.htm

there is also the trick of locating the cylinder at the bottom of the stroke and feeding a good stretch of rope down the sparkplug hole to FILL THE CYLINDER. Then slowly kick it over or place in 4th gear and roll rear tire....
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2012, 05:18:12 PM »
Genius.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2012, 07:06:48 PM »
I would try heat directed towards the cylinder head.  A lot of heat.

A metal temperature of 300 degrees F wouldn't be too much.

When the head was heated with a propane torch I would then add the levering and whacking.
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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2012, 12:13:32 AM »
Well....a very sad update.

I tried the indian rope trick with all my weight on the kickstarter it would not budge once it got to TDC.

Then I implemented the trick as posted with angle iron and 3 clamps to pop it all upwards...I did this and added a to the top of the exhaust manifold.....and what happened next has me stunned....it popped aright but instead of the head coming loose it actually shattered the cranckase down at the barrel retaining bolt on the right hand side....its now in 3-4 pieces.......I cannot believe that the head would not come off before this would happen..

So, it seems I now owe my friend a bottom end for his engine.

does anyone have any ideas where I can pick up bullet bottom end or crankcases...

Oh and I still do not have the head off!!!!!!!!

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2012, 12:50:23 AM »
OMFG.  Terribly sorry.

I think your friend needs to understand that what he bought had some issues, and that you're working pro-bono (I assume), but I'll leave it at that.

Price Part Motorcycles sells re-milled 350 cases for the 500s at what seems a reasonable price to me.

Best of luck.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2012, 01:03:12 AM »
That sucks major...dude...these setups are just crazy all to tear these engines down....good ideas all of them should work...only to have his engine trashed...

whenever the time comes for me to pull head...as soon as I hit any trouble...i will pull motor...buy 55 gal drum of pb break free...and soak the stupid motor for a week...

Sure bet!

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ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2012, 01:09:29 PM »
I would have to guess that the bike was somehow compromised. Like it had been in the Katrina flood or something, and there was internal corrosion locking it together. Or else somebody may have previously been in there to try to cure a leak and used red Loctite on the barrel spigot or something like  that, maybe.

Anyway, that's not normal, and I've never seen or heard of that happening before to anyone.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2012, 06:31:10 PM »
yes, very unusual and very distressing....

I will hunt for some crankcases and see what I find, I'll look at the links kindly suggested on the forum.  If anyone else knows of any other sources I can check please let me know.

I did enquire after a complete motor in India and got a quote of $2600 before shipping.......so crankcase halves would be the way to go if I can find them.

You've all been very helpful in this so far and I thank you all.

I'll be back on with updates when I have them.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2012, 02:43:44 AM »
Holy Crap, this really sucks!!
never heard of this happening; can you post some pictures??
            Sorry to hear- Mike
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2012, 10:58:25 AM »
Agent X...

Are you still over in India?... looks like they got blocks just laying on the street corner from your build pics you posted...
probably like $10 each over there...

So it seems like we are mainly polling UK places... how about those India based companies on ebay (or not).. bulletwalla.. etc..

on side note.. just saw a hitchcocks news writeup of a truck load of parts being shipped to them... so maybe they will have some in stock soon...
http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/news/27565//Just_in_from_Boston_in_the_US_-_Royal_Enfield_Twins_and_parts

looks like only twins.. sorry.. but also says parts.. and they still have to catalog them all.. so maybe some hope..
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 11:01:00 AM by maxrotor Afro Samurai »

AgentX

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »
Pretty much all 350s here.  500 UCEs are now common, but the old bikes are 99.5% 350s.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2012, 11:54:32 AM »
Probably the long way around..but still good news...if he can get the 350 case...and maybe ship it over to those other cats to have it worked into a 500?...same way they mod their current 350 cases...but thats just me ice skating up hill...who knows..tomorrow they may get some cases in...

AgentX

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 01:31:38 PM »
Probably the long way around..but still good news...if he can get the 350 case...and maybe ship it over to those other cats to have it worked into a 500?...same way they mod their current 350 cases...but thats just me ice skating up hill...who knows..tomorrow they may get some cases in...

Price Part gets the cases from India, modded in India.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2012, 06:49:26 PM »
again great suggestions guys.

as an update, I spoke to Henry price at Price parts in the UK, he just got some stock in but;

a) They are for the kickstart model and can be tricky to modify for the electric start model due to the engine mountings being different.

b) They have now gone up to 250 pounds sterling, I understand this is due to increased machining and shipping costs from their supplier.

Henry was really nice and helpful but looks like the milled out 350 will not work for me in this instance.

i tried a few of the indian dealers and only found a complete motor for $2600.
However!!  I did manage to find the wholesaler in Minnesota who have a set of 2 crankcases in stock for $375 plus shipping.

I ordered them and also a full gasket set plus new main bearings and crankshaft oil seals.

can anyone think of or recommend anything else I will need provisionally for the rebuild?  Obviously this will be determined by what I find upon getting the motor apart.

Afro Samurai

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2012, 09:38:21 PM »
Well thats good news...

Sounds like you are still short a jack hammer...
And 55 gal drum pb breakfree...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 09:42:39 PM by maxrotor Afro Samurai »

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2012, 05:42:55 AM »
Update on the project.

The details of this are in the prior posts.
I have gotten the head off finally with the use of quite a bit of heat...which I had tried that before the clamp option which resulted in the bust crankcases.

I have now pulled the motor and am beginning to strip the old cases down to switch components over to the new ones.

On inspecting the piston, it is scored pretty badly but all the rings are intact....it looks to me like a series of seizures have occured....the barrel is also scored and i will look at options for reboring and a replacement piston - all suggestions welcome.

Now I want to explore what caused the seizures...is this a common problem with the bike?  What are the main causes?

Thanks all.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2012, 12:29:38 PM »
Very good question...i have the same concern of wanting to know why this happens ...seemingly so often...
Some places point to abuse during break in procedure which is extremely slow and frustrating (i am going throught it now.. hard to fight temptation.. hope i dont pay for it later.. but im not too bad)..

Other places say heat..but if this bike can survive india how the heck is the stupid motor locking up  in the US?..are the Indians that diligent in the break in procedure?.. or maybe road conditions are so bad that they dont go fast anyway?.. seen clips on net with guys speeding along... seems like road sides would be full of dead bikes with all the heat and traffic they see..

Then.. someplace in snidals book... he states where typically when an engine seizes.. in some cases once it frees up again.. people simply keep on riding.. keeping speeds low etc.. and never bother with the rebuild...

Man.. im am at a loss.. i really dont understand why this problem occurs..here and not everywhere all the time 24 hrs a day..... and I am hoping.. that switching to alloy barrel.. adding oil cooler etc will totaly eliminate this problem in the future...for everyone...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 12:37:51 PM by maxrotor Afro Samurai »

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2012, 06:31:01 PM »
So I have the crankshaft out...I will be putting the crank in the freezer and the main bearing inner races in the oven for fitting.
The big end feels good with no vertical play.
Is there anything else I need to look out for on this engine before re-assembling the crankcases?

I will be servicing the oil pump also before re-fitting the timing cover.

Any help would be good as I do not want to have to pull this motor apart again.

Also, I will be needing a rebore more than likely as the barrel is scored where the soft seize occured, any recommendations as to size of bore and oversize of piston  etc??

thanks all.

barenekd

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2012, 07:35:44 PM »
Seizures occur when the piston overheats because of lean mixtures (pinging), too advanced ignition (Preignition), or a lack of adequate piston/cylinder clearance when the engine was assembled. The iron barrels expand more slowly than the aluminum piston as the engine heats up. This is the advantage of the alloy barrel, the expansion rate is the same between the two parts. The piston to liner clearance should nominally be about .005" at the top of the slotted piston skirt. A solid skirt should have .002 additional clearance. Those are minimums, if you tend a ride the bike hard another thou or two clearance can't hurt. Ring end clearance should be about .015"
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2012, 08:08:58 PM »
thanks for that info...it sounds like an alloy barrel is the way to go...however if my friends budget will not stretch to that...can anyone recommend good oversize pistons to match a rebore on the old steel barrel?

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2012, 03:55:03 AM »
thanks for that info...it sounds like an alloy barrel is the way to go...however if my friends budget will not stretch to that...can anyone recommend good oversize pistons to match a rebore on the old steel barrel?

I would go with the ACE piston or the one that Tim in NZ recommends.
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2012, 06:45:05 AM »
An update,

the crankcases are al back together with the timing cover on etc.

I am now hoping to sort out the top end.

currently I need a standard piston and rings, the bore in the old steel barrel has some marks in it and one place where a small score can be felt, it is not deep.

What is recommended in this case, could we get away with a new piston and rings and not a rebore?  As I said the marks are there and not deep, in fact only the one can be felt.

I looked at n'field gear and the piston sets seem expensive, ($260), however I looked at the Price parts prices and there are standard pistons for 80 pounds sterling which is $137 USD.

I am going to be in the UK and fairly close to Price parts over Christmas so can pick parts up without need of postage/shipping.

Any feedback welcome please.

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 07:35:30 PM »
Hi all,

so in not finding any clear engineer shops in Sacramento, (hard to believe but I simply cannot find one here), I have decided to have a go at honing the seizure marks out of this bore myself.
As mentioned before the marks are not at all deep and their is just one slight score mark that can be felt to the touch.

Does anyone have any advise or experience on technique for this/ equipment or choice etc....?

Thanks.

barenekd

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 08:41:41 PM »
The latest thing on boring and honing is to leave the cylinder smooth. honing cross hatches is out, as they just increase the initial ring wear considerably.
As far as to whether or not you need a new piston and/or a bore job, you need to measure the bore and the taper and see how much clearance you will have with a new piston. If the cylinder has much taper or out of roundness, you are definitely going to need a bore.
If you can't find a machine shop that bores motorcycle cylinders in Sacramento, call Big Al (Tri750) (BMW/Enfield of Fresno) in Fresno and see who he recommends.
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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2012, 03:15:40 AM »
thanks for the advice bare,

regarding the piston, the skirts and rings have seizure marks on them and so I will replace them.

The bore is smooth apart from the a couple of spots so I wanted to a machine shop to take a look as i do not necessarily trust my own measuring abilities.  What should I be looking at and whats the process for measurement?
I.e:  What do I measure and where...what are my tolerances?
I believe the standard piston is 84mm, am I correct?

Thanks.