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Author Topic: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle  (Read 3562 times)

The Garbone

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 02:35:12 AM »
Could the sound be from the starter or sprag assembly?  You could remove it and see if the noise goes away.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

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ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2012, 07:29:33 AM »
This kind of starter system with a sprag could be broken/seized. That stuff could make some noise by itself.

There's no telling what any other noise might be at this point.
I'd say you definitely need to take off the primary chaincase cover and see if there are parts laying in the bottom. And probably you will need to take the whole primary off too, because that's what you have to do to repair the sprag or take the sprag off for deletion.
And that's just for working on the starter issue. I don't know if problems go deeper than that right now, or not.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2012, 10:51:48 PM »
Gentlemen,

I am back with an update.  I am sorry this is so disjointed and so far apart but I have had very little time to look at the bike lately.

So I removed the primary cover, no broken teeth, parts or even shavings present. 
I removed the starter also and looked into the recess it sits, again teeth looked good to the eye.
I put my finger in there and the sprag gear turns smoothly and easily one way and not the other, (as I believe its supposed to).

again no sign of trauma in there...should I continue and pull the primary or does it sound like the sprag assembly is complete and not seized etc?

If I can rule this out I would more than likely tear the top end down.


LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2012, 11:26:04 PM »
I put my finger in there and the sprag gear turns smoothly and easily one way and not the other, (as I believe its supposed to).

again no sign of trauma in there...should I continue and pull the primary or does it sound like the sprag assembly is complete and not seized etc?

It sounds like it's functioning properly, though the noise could still be coming from somewhere in there.  Without hearing the noise for ourselves, it's hard to make a judgment call.  Unfortunately it's not easy to get inside there.  So I would just pull the head anyways.  That's easy, and you're gonna have to do it anyways if you want to get into the bowels of the engine -- if the problem does indeed wind up being in the lower unit.

Edit: Disregard what I said about having to remove the head to get to the sprag.  I was thinking it was inside the engine halves, but it is indeed on the outside.  Still, I think it's far easier to pull the head and take a peek in there rather than pull all the primary stuff.  To get my head off, I shoved a pair of fat dowels into the intake and exhaust ports then pulled up on those like handles, while giving it a wiggle, till it popped off.

I don't recommend this method of levering with random junk: http://youtu.be/M_WD5m9RKdM
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:40:26 PM by LarsBloodbeard »

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2012, 04:40:08 PM »
I'll pull the head and Barrel and take a look.

I agree with the method for removing the head.....the video is fascinating but cringeworthy with the assortment of random items they seems to be prying that head off with!!
Once I get a chance to remove the top end I will report back.

Many thanks.

baird4444

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2012, 02:50:28 PM »
" I don't recommend this method of levering with random junk: http://youtu.be/M_WD5m9RKdM "

Let's hope you are lucky...  being loose but not popping up like the vid is very common. You may find yourself prying on the intake and exhaust port as well...
    before you pull the head you might consider starting it up with the primary cover off; you might better hear or even see the cause of the mystery noise.   
       - Mike
« Last Edit: October 25, 2012, 02:53:30 PM by baird4444 »
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The Garbone

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2012, 12:15:45 PM »
Rubber mallets and patience are your friends.
Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »
Hello all.

so I am removing the head and barrel from the 2003 bullet 500 I am working on for a family member....I am at the stage where it is stuck fast and no amount of blows upwards on the manifolds with a rubber mallet or wooden drift is working it loose....I will not be prying apart or tapping on any fins....are there any methods recommended for this removal?  I have seen something along the lines of two wooden dowls in each manifold but do not think I have the strength to prise it loose like this.....also I think there may have been something on here showing a puller system which looked fairly complex.

any help appreciated.

Thanks.

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2012, 10:20:22 PM »
Wernwilk, there's a lot of methods, but first make sure you're not creating a suction.  Rotate the engine till one of the valves open up (if the engine isn't siezed), make sure the plug is out, and compressor.  If you still need leverage then take a 2x4, cut it at a height slightly higher than the exhaust port and you've got a nice fulcrum.  Jam the grip of a very large screwdriver into the port (not too far!) or other such instrument with a soft handle and lever with that.  You can rig up something similar on the other side too.

Or you could unscrew the head bolts from the base if you have the right tools, or the wrong tools and don't mind replacing the bolts.

Also, it might be worth a shot to simply kick it over and see if the compression pops it off.  ;D

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 05:33:36 AM »
Thanks for the reply,
I already have the pushrods out and the rocker arms off so turning the engine over wont open the valves I assume.

I will try the leverage on the ports and see how it goes.

I will also try the popping off from compression method...I assume I will need the plug in for this right?


AgentX

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 06:39:08 AM »
I was 4/5 of the way to trying to rig a rachet-strap arrangement to somehow pull my head off when I finally got it to pop via more conventional means...

Using compression sounds like an easy thing to try with nothing to lose.  Might loosen it up even if it doesn't break it free completely.

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2012, 06:54:20 AM »
I'd get it To BDC then put in the plug and give it a kick.   Never tried this but it's something I was considering before i got mine to pop.

ace.cafe

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2012, 12:05:36 PM »
There are two main things which prevent the head from coming off.
If the head seems to be "glued" down to the barrel, and won't budge, then it probably IS glued to the barrel.
For this, you can take a very thin paint scraper or a thin blade knife, and very carefully tap it into the head gasket itself from the side, with a mallet. By tapping into the head gasket joint, it will break the seal of the head gasket sealing compound which sometimes is in there, and the head will release. You have to work the blade all the way around the whole engine, tapping it in to the head joint from all around, a little at a time. Eventually the head gasket will be destroyed from this process, and won't hold on anymore. Then the head will lift off.
You want to use a very thin blade, and try not to harm the aluminum surface of the head. You may get some scratches, but that's not any real problem. Just avoid gouging it. It works, and I have done it many times.

The other common issue is that it gets stuck on the head studs. This is usually because the washers used under the head nuts get squished when they got tightened-down, and now they bind against the studs, making it hard to get off.
You can either remove all the studs, or you can squirt some penetrating oil down the stud holes, and wiggle the head a little at a time, working it up the studs. Or, maybe only some of the studs will come out easily, and then you can take them out, and just wiggle it up the remaining studs.

Put new hardened washers in there stud holes when re-assembling, AFTER getting the old washers out first.

You can get the head off. It might take some effort and time, but between these two methods, I have never failed to get a head off.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2012, 02:03:29 AM »
Hello all.

so I am removing the head and barrel from the 2003 bullet 500 I am working on for a family member....I am at the stage where it is stuck fast and no amount of blows upwards on the manifolds with a rubber mallet or wooden drift is working it loose....I will not be prying apart or tapping on any fins....are there any methods recommended for this removal?  I have seen something along the lines of two wooden dowls in each manifold but do not think I have the strength to prise it loose like this.....also I think there may have been something on here showing a puller system which looked fairly complex.

any help appreciated.

Thanks.

Did you ever get that thing off?  Mine was being stubborn and I was trying to rush it.  After about 100 blows with my rubber mallet, I employed some creative leverage.

wernwilk

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Re: Help required - gray smoke and engine rattle
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 05:49:54 AM »
I have not yet succeeded in getting the head off,  I have tried the following;

- Removed the head studds
- tapped all the way around the head gasket to try and remove the "glue" that seems to have cemented itself to the barrel
- hit the heck out of it with a rubber mallet
- used a section of broom as a drift against the underside of the manifolds
- tried a large dowel in each manifold to try and lever it free
- kicking the engine over from BDC to use the compression to free it
- used spacer block and a tire lever inside the manifolds with my upper body weight on it.....then with my foot and almost all my body weight on it.

Still nothing......I have never seen a head stuck like this and have worked on all manner of bikes over the last 20 years...still it hasn't budged one bit.

I am at a loss, I will try and rig up some leverage like shown on the forum here but surely that will not give more leverage than my entire bodyweight?

Not sure how best to proceed from here....as always...all tips welcomed!!