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Author Topic: Oil pump issues??  (Read 893 times)

Dhastings1954

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Oil pump issues??
« on: October 20, 2012, 07:56:10 PM »
Tried to adjust my valves and had issues so took off the rocker boxes and found rocker arm assembly on intake completely worn out. Oil vanes in blocks all clogged up. Same on exhaust. Not much oil up there. Had not started bike for almost two years. How much oil should be up in the rocker arms?  How can i tell for sure pump is pumping oil to head?  When I get my rocker assemblies and reinstall, can I back off on the oil pump nuts and see if oil is flowing up the tubes?
Any help appreciated
1998 bullet classic in vt.
Thanks
Vt Bullet

Ice

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 09:51:36 PM »
Hi Dhastings1954 and welcome aboard !

 To check for oil flow to the head, start and idle the engine then crack loose the oil line banjo bolts at the head. If the pumps are pumping and the oil is flowing through the pipes there will be an oozing of oil at the fittings as you do this.

 Remember, these are small displacement plunger pumps operating at low pressure so you will not get a big spray.  Don't worry they are sufficient for the task at hand and have been since the beginning.

 

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military...it takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Dhastings1954

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »
Thanks for tip. That is what I was going to try. I s there any routine maintenance/cleaning I should do to the oil pump?

Also the only place I could find to buy rocker arm assemblies was Bulletwalla. They had two listed and I am still not sure if I am betting an OEM kit or the aluminum alloy. Some people seemed to like the alloy ones and others not.

Seems like Royal Enfield USA isn't listing a lot of parts for older Bullets. That right? Mine is a 1998

I also need a replacement headlight. Mine is a 5" sealed beam. Don't see those listed any suggestions on where I can get one? Don't ride at night, so mainly for day use and to get er inspected!

Thanks
Duncan
Vt Bullet

Arizoni

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2012, 11:09:13 PM »
Follow the link to Nfieldgear.
They show two 7 inch headlights for the REs.
I think the "Tribar" needs the extra headlight rim to mount it but I'm sure the others here will let you know.

Royal Enfield hasn't changed their headlight nacelle in over 60 years so these headlights should fit your bike.

http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/aftermarket-parts-accessories/lighting.html

It's a good idea to call them at 1-800-258-0938 to order because they often don't have the things they show in their catalog or web site.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

jedaks

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 04:59:26 AM »
If you want to make extra sure your rockers are getting oil, you can remove the rocker box covers and start the bike. You will need to remove the fuel tank and lay it across the seat.

As it idles you will see oil flowing from the rockers and oozing across the cylinder head to the valves and also draining down the pushrod holes.

More knowledgeable people than me may disagree, but I think the stock standard oil pumps are completely servicable for normal daily use.

Dhastings1954

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 06:16:30 AM »
Good advice on both questions. As to the headlight, I think a call is a good idea. I am confused about the sizes. I know my sealed beam headlight measures a little more than 5" across.

As for checking to see if oil is flowing, I will back off the banjo nuts and see if it is getting that far. If it is getting into the rocker arms, and draining back
 Down the push rod openings, wouldn't I see it if I open up the side cover used to adjust valves also?

I take it there is not a large volume of oil being pushed up there? But you should still see evidence of oil inside the rocker boxes?

What are you guys running for oil in your old bikes? I have seen some posts where people are using synthetic oil and was wondering if this was okay for the old ones like my 98
Thanks again
Duncan
Vt Bullet

jedaks

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 09:23:51 AM »
As for checking to see if oil is flowing, I will back off the banjo nuts and see if it is getting that far. If it is getting into the rocker arms, and draining back
 Down the push rod openings, wouldn't I see it if I open up the side cover used to adjust valves also?

Yes, you can see it but it could also be residual oil that is getting splattered around when the pushrods bounce up and down. If you check with the tappet cover removed, have plenty of rags on hand because it will make a mess!
I take it there is not a large volume of oil being pushed up there? But you should still see evidence of oil inside the rocker boxes?
Yes, when you kill the engine there will be a little oil that gets captured up there in the rocker boxes.

What are you guys running for oil in your old bikes? I have seen some posts where people are using synthetic oil and was wondering if this was okay for the old ones like my 98

I have been using normal automotive 20-50w since I've had my iron barrel and have absolutely no complaints. Some people insist on motorcycle specific oil so suit yourself. I don't reckon it matters as long as it is decent quality oil. You can also use it in your primary case for the wet clutch.

The factory recommends changing oil every 3000klm (2500 miles?) but I do it every 2000klm. Oil is cheap insurance. As far as synthetic oils go, again suit yourself, as you will do no harm and may even give extra protection. Synthetic oils don't require changes as frequently as mineral oils, however, they still get dirty with combustion deposits. I don't think there is much economy in buying expensive synthetic oil just to change it every 2000klm.

Maybe you can get away with extended oil changes using synthetics? I think Ace or Kev Mahoney will know.

Vince

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 12:09:57 PM »
     Try calling your nearest dealer, or CMW (our host) direct. These kind of oem parts are not usually cataloged in the accessory section.
     Intake rocker # 144455     Holder #144436
     Exhaust         # 144444                #144437

Chasfield

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2012, 12:37:47 PM »
I am thinking that the time it takes to remove the timing cover and inspect the oil pump worm drive and shaft drive slots is time well spent. The neoprene crankshaft end seal in my worm drive nut was partially detached. The replacement part was of low cost and I had a spare timing cover gasket to hand.

I would be wary of the high capacity oil pump mod for a standard floating bush bottom end. High back pressure stalling the pump is one of the suspected contributory factors where oil pump drives have failed.

2001 500 Bullet Deluxe

Ice

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2012, 02:11:34 PM »
Brother Chasfield is right.

 Installing hi-vol oil pumps without increasing the oil pathways to match is a poor idea IMO.
 
 The driving pressure on the worm and spindle is increased dramatically if they are tasked to push over twice the amount of oil through standard passageways.

 About oils. On other forums folks will argue which brand is best 'till the cows come home about it. Us not so much. It's a personal choice we all make.
 
 I can't speak definitively for anyone but me. My take is that we all seem to choose our oils and the oil change intervals according to the unique needs of our individual Bullets and conditions we ride them in.
 
 I have noticed that some of us need the high temperature stability of synthetics. Some of us don't need the high temp stability but use synthetic anyway just in case. Some of us are using semi-synthetic oils.
Some of us are using petroleum oils formulated for diesel trucks.

 In general any good oil will serve you well. My advice is to look for an oil containing ZDDP (Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates) anti-wear compound that was a standard ingredient until a few years ago. Old school engines with flat valve tappets were made to use it.

 
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military...it takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

Dhastings1954

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 06:22:43 AM »
Thanks for all the advice. I bought an oil pump replacement kit so will tear that open when my parts come. My big concern was the apparent lack of oil in the rocker boxes and the fact that the rocker block oil grooves were completely filled in with dense packed gunk. Even if the oil was getting up there, the lubricationncould not have been as designed. Sure made a mess of the intake rocker block.

I e
Need up buying parts from Bulletwallanin India. Any of you guys used them before? What kind of luck have you had?

Had a guy that worked on my Bullet a couple times. He worked mostly on British bikes and Harley's. his comment about my Indian made bullet was the quality of craftsmanship was not up to British standards. Do you guys agree?
Thanks again
Duncan
Vt Bullet

ace.cafe

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 08:23:04 AM »
You have to clean out all that gunk from the oil lines.
All of it. It's in the external oil pipes too, and all inside the banjo bolts and banjo housings, and in the quill bolt and all the internal passages.

Get some long pipe cleaners and some mineral spirits and start to work. If there are any passages which cannot be cleaned out with pipe cleaners, mineral spirits and compressed air, then you can use a properly-sized long drill bit or rod to push down the holes to clear them. You don't need to drill anything, just use it as a clearing rod.

If you install new oil pumps, you MUST be sure that they seal and are not binding during rotation.  It's common that they bind, or don't seal, and need fitting/lapping. Use the lighter-pressure oil pump springs, because they work better and the old bikes still have the stiff springs.
Get a new worm nut with the bonded neoprene seal. You probably already have that in there, but they don't last forever. It is an important seal, and it's not a lot of money to replace that worm nut with the seal bonded in.
In case you don't know, that worm nut and the nut behind it are left-hand threads, so they turn the opposite way than normal. And you can down-rate the torque on them, because they won't unscrew, and the factory torque spec is too high for those things. 20 ft-lbs is plenty enough for those.
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single

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2012, 10:59:53 AM »
I use an additive with ZDDP because of the flat tappet cams,which will wear sooner without it.This is an air cooled engine,which is why I use a motorcycle specific oil,although I believe they are formulated for unit construction engine transmission layouts that require shearing load protection.

Dhastings1954

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 08:39:06 PM »
Okay,
So I got my new rocker assemblies Friday and put them in. Carefully adjusted the valves, put the tank back on changed the oil and filter, turned the key and kicked her over......nothing.... Well I was tired and I went in to have dinner, a wee dram of Scotch and went to bed.  Went out in the morning and kicked her over until my foot hurt and still nothing. No spark. couldn't figure out why. So I went to my camp and put it away for winter instead.

Went out again this afternoon and what did I notice.....the kill switch was off......oh boy. Well amazingly enough she kicked over and started on the second kick, yup, amazing right?

NOW for the issue. As per your suggestions I backed off the banjo nuts to check and see if there oil going to the rockers. Nothing, not even a drop. I did not run the motor long but I will say it ran better than it has in a long time.

So, I pull off the timing cover to look the oil pump over. Worm gear very worn and evidence of filings. Splines in pump shaft also worn. Plungers and disc look pretty good, but I have a kit and will replace.

You guys gave me some advice on putting things back together, but I welcome any other thoughts, and yes you can have a good laugh over the kill switch issue.

I have to order the shaft and worm gear, gasket etc. anything else I should replace while I am in there?
Thanks
Duncan
Vt Bullet

Arizoni

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Re: Oil pump issues??
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 11:19:06 PM »
I'd get some new banjo fitting washers and remove and totally clean the oil line.

I would also run pipe cleaners (the kind smokers use) thru all of the drilled oil line holes I could reach and then blow them out with compressed air to make sure they were unplugged.

If an air compressor isn't available, a can of compressed gas with a extended tip on it for cleaning computer keyboards and dusting out computer cabinets like "Century Duster" will work quite nicely.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 11:23:30 PM by Arizoni »
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary