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Author Topic: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)  (Read 1244 times)

AussieDave

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New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« on: November 24, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »
 G'day all. Firstly, thank you all for the info you've shared on this forum ,it has been  its great for a new owner. I purchased a g5 (lovely) 4 weeks ago with 1670 km on the dial. its now approaching 3000 i ride everyday. First run on the freeway-short circuit,blown fuse found a loom along side the injector rubbing up against the head and melting. Ok, no worries easy fix  couple of spare fuses to see me home  apply a little heatshrink and cable ties and all is well.....Second run -another short, this time its the loom down by the drive sprocket, same deal hot casing ect....Hmm I think , better go over the wiring and do an oil change while I'm at it coz it looks pretty black so next day off out comes the bung hole with most of the crankcase thread... exellent! So a few phone calls tracing the service history turns out the first owner was an idiot and appart from stripping the thread left a 1/2 ml hex imprint in the sump drain washer. Ok, no worries order a helicoil kit and in the meantime apply a little silicon in (moderation of course) but it make s me wonder  how the  run in period was done...
  So reading about piston slap and cam spindle adjustment arouses my curiosity and that tic tic noise seems louder... visit the aussie importer who pleads igrorance and says quote " its an alloy engine mate its gonna be noisy, don't worryt about it"  . There is of course no reference to the spindle check or adjustment in the service history of the bike,I dont think any of the dealers have read the service manual(although i did meet a good mechanic at melb city m/c), meanwhile that tic seems louder.. So I now have the service manual and all seems revealed next oil change I will:  change up the exhaust / muffler for the hitchcock efi and header,adjust said cam spindles, think about air filters(?),bung on a solo seat and rack ,and if noise persists whip the head off and check the piston tolerences. In regard to scooter bobs use of the electra piston, metioned in one of the threads , i have been unable to find any other reference to this part on any of the parts retail sites but if i have to go the rebore  i would like to go down this path ,could you guys point me in the right direction to find this part please? I'm gonna get this bike right come what may. cheers and thanks once again for all the good guff. D.
Incidently, : Lambretta 150gp,kawa z250,RD lc 350,ct90x2,Z500 then i stopped for 20 years....
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.

gremlin

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 02:10:16 PM »
Wow ....
please educate me, what is the benefit of using an "electra" piston in a UCE engine ?
1996 Trophy 1200
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1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
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TWinOKC

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« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:19:35 PM by TWinOKC »
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jartist

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »
I did the cam spindle adjustment and it didn't make too much of a difference. Supposedly when they are out of adjustment they make a whining noise.  The uce engine makes a tapping racket to be sure due to alloy air cooled pushrod engine and especially hydraulic lifters. If anything is amiss it gets so loud that your apologizing to motorists at stoplights so unless you're in that camp I wouldn't worry too much about it.

barenekd

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 06:36:16 PM »
The clearances on the AVL piston should be the same as the stock one.
the AVl piston has a flat head as opposed to the dished head in the stock UCEs for a bit more compression.
Mine had a little tick in it too, It's the pipe muffler joint leaking a little bit.
Checkout your exhaust system. I fixed mine with some high temp silicone sealer. The tick is gone. It sounded like a slightly loose valve. Can't say I ever really worried about it. if it comes back at least I know what it is.
Bare
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:40:54 PM by barenekd »
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AussieDave

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 11:06:14 AM »
 Thanks for the advice, checked the exhaust system but couldn't find a leak round the head, will take heat shield off tomorrow and see what i can find. The bike's running well other wise I guess so apologies to our importer- although it does seem noisy i seem to be suffering new owner noise paranoia. I did put a solo seat and rack on her... transforms the experience ...just floatin' along now, a little higher,..Gremlin, I should have been clearer, if I find piston to barrel tolerance U/S my intention was to source a 535 cc piston and bore out the cylinder to suit. I had heard a reference that suggested one made for an older model would fit. I maybe a little confused about model designations, but they seem to change from country to country. Anyhow, lovin' it.
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.

gremlin

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 01:48:57 PM »
If you are planning on going to the 535, you might find the work that ACE is doing on creating a "fireball" version of the UCE interesting.
1996 Trophy 1200
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1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
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1966 Sears (puch) 250


barenekd

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 06:36:27 PM »
Quote
  So reading about piston slap and cam spindle adjustment arouses my curiosity and that tic tic noise seems louder... visit the aussie importer who pleads ignorance and says quote " its an alloy engine mate its gonna be noisy, don't worry about it"  . There is of course no reference to the spindle check or adjustment in the service history of the bike,I dont think any of the dealers have read the service manual(although i did meet a good mechanic at melb city m/c), meanwhile that tic seems louder..

I got into several discussions about the necessity of the cam gear adjustments when I got my manual. Since it says to do it before 500 miles
I wondered aloud if any shop actually does it.
Most of the shop people didn't even know that was in the book since it's in the rear wheel section, I investigated further and found CMW never did anything about it, but did say that if it was never done before 500 miles, do not attempt to do it later as the gears will be seated and should not be disturbed.
However, since it's in the wrong part of the book I finally ASSumed it was another big error in the manual and shouldn't even have been in there. There are a lot of errors in that book, so you need to take that info with a grain of salt. A lot of the stuff came from the iron barrel manuals is is totally unapplicable to the UCE's, such as break-in speeds, which are far too low especially 5th gear. This applies to the owners manual, too.You are really lugging that engine to maintain their limits.
But there are a multitude of other errors in that book which if I were a critic, I would not recommend it. It has some good stuff, but you have to read it very carefully an determine if it even makes sense! If you see something that sounds questionable, at least put it up on the forum, or ask your dealer if you trust their mechanics. But believe me, many of the guys working in shops nowadays don't really have a clue about working on 1950s machines. And this is one, not withstanding the electronic ignition and injection, which can be trouble shot by you and do the parts replacement yourself. That's what they would do.
Most of the bike is made for the owner to fix anyway. That's how bikes were built in the old days. If you aren't a mechanic, you will learn to be one as time goes on. They don't expect you for tear the entire engine down, but just about anything else should be well within the owner's grasp.
As far as clanking, ticking and clattering go, the noises will dissipate as you put miles on your bike, or maybe you just get used to them. At any rate my G5 now sounds good and runs quite smoothly. Patience, my friend, don't jump into anything hastily. Just keep on putting the miles on. It will be worth the effort! You've got a couple of years to figure out if it's gong to blow up, which is really not likely!
Bare
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:00:22 PM by barenekd »
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 12:46:06 AM »
Here's some info FWIW:

I looked into this a lot a while back.  Since the cam gears get pushed one way by the cam lobe/valve spring as they open the valve and then switch to getting pushed the other as soon as they pass the cam lobe's high point it kind of pushed the gear when it passes the high point, which bangs into the other gear.  If you've ever turned a cam by hand you know what this feels lik.  If the gear lash is excessive the gear teeth at this spot will beat themselves and their mating neighbor up, get thinnner, and then you have excessive clearance.  Since the other teeth around the gear are still fine you can't just snug them up, so these teeth will beat themselves into worse and worse shape as the bike runs.

As the gears "run in" or seat over the first few hundred miles you could need to adjust them.  At this point the teeth are still fine, it's just other things that may have settled in and worn that allow the excessive lash.  Since the teeth are fine you can set the lash and you should be good to go.  Let it go too long and the teeth get too beat up to be serviceable.

On the older bikes there was no eccentric to adjust the lash.  At the factory the assembler would just pull different gears from the parts bin until, through natural variance, they found two that meshed together well.  Or you could install and aftermarket eccentric if you wanted.

Kevin chimed in and IIRC he said that the new gears are adjusted at the factory (a luxury the old bikes with no eccentric didn't have) and they should be good to go without any further adjustment ever.  The manual does state that they should be checked/adjusted at 500 miles.  I don't know anyone who has had this done or any shop that does it as part of the service.  That said, there have only been two UCE bikes that had an unbelievable ticky-tick racket and self destructed and were repaired/replaced.  I think one was WillW (UK) and they wouldn't tell him what they did.  The other was a local friend here in the US and they just swapped his engine, no news on whether they ever took the original apart or what the issue was.

So checking it is probably a good idea and I would guess fewer than 1 bike in 1000 would ever need an adjustment.  I bought my bike as a demo with about 900 miles on it so no point checking at that point, and I think it was later that I found it was supposed to be done.

Scott
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 12:48:58 AM by Ducati Scotty »

Ducati Scotty

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 12:59:27 AM »
Oh, and almost every UCE I've ever heard makes some ticky-tick noises.  When you first get the bike they seem WAY too loud but you tend to get used to it.  Air cooled singles make noise.  They also tend to change and get a little louder and quieter at different times over the first few thousand miles, then they settle in.  It's only when they are excessive or tend to get louder over time that you should worry.

One customer's bike at the shop was ghost whisper quiet.  My mechanic started it up just to show me, it was eery.  I suspect that was the other 1 in 1000 bike where everything just happened to line up perfectly and every tolerance was spot on at the minimum, running but nothing smacking around even a thousandth or two out.

Scott

AussieDave

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 05:02:32 AM »
  Thank you gentlemen, for your most informative responses. D.S., I found your explanation of the cam spindle seating very clear, I have stopped fretting and just ride her, and yes, the motor does seem to get a little smoother and quieter with each passing thousand Km's or so..I read the thread about Ace's UCE project, once again very informative and a great read to boot. I will of course be sensible and await an outcome before attempting any of my own ill informed mods. However the urge to tinker with motorcycles has taken over my brain, so I  am now searching for an old iron barrel that wants to be a fireball. An old and dusty one that preferably needs lots of tlc , bit thin on the groun d here in oz so I may have to consider importing....so cheers and thanks once again for the good advice. David.
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.

AussieDave

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 06:02:11 AM »
  Curious.... whilst searching the classifieds for said iron barrel I saw uce bike (i think it was a c5 ) advertised that the owner stated had an iron barrel fitted,(?!) could this be true, does the old cylinder fit the new motor? And what would be the outcome ...? A deeper resonant "thump" maybe...? He did say the bike had the uce head  . Whattayareckon?
"Glorious,stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! ... O bliss ! O poop poop ! Oh my! Oh my!" - Toad of Toad Hall.

gremlin

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 03:03:21 PM »
................. Whattayareckon?


I learned NOT to buy other people's unfinished projects.
I like to break my own toys, thank you very much !
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


barenekd

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 06:17:20 PM »
Quote
Whattayareckon?
I reckon that even if they did fit, why would anyone want to do that? Maybe because it was painted black, it was an iron barrel.
The advantages of such a change would be none.
The disadvantages would be more weight, less cooling, faster wear, more oil consumption, and the only better thump you might get out of it would be piston slap.
the metallurgy in the new barrels far exceeds anything the iron barrel delivers on all counts.
Bare
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 11:13:27 PM by barenekd »
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: New guy says thanks with the inevitable question (or two)
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
I was gonna say the same thing.  The reason the AVL got an alloy cylinder is because it sheds heat so much better and makes the bike far less prone to seizing the motor.

Scott