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Author Topic: Filter cover oil leak  (Read 2469 times)

Jack Leis

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Filter cover oil leak
« on: November 28, 2012, 01:25:49 PM »
Hey guy's , I'm looking for some help here. 2011 G5, 17,000 miles, No real problems until about 6 months ago. It seems that everytime now when I change my oil  and filter I get a small leak from the gasket after about 200 to 300 miles. I clean the mating surfaces well and have had some luck with permatex grey . About 300 miles ago to fix the leak I cleaned the surfaces , applied some grease to both sides of the gasket and bolted it back. Sealed like a champ. I thought. Yesterday I went for a few short errands, rode it maybe 5 miles total and sure enough, started dripping again. I cant help but wonder if the cover is slightly warped or if there is something going on like maybe too much pressure in the filter cavity. It's driving me nuts ! I'm reaching out for your thoughts on the subject. I'm at wits end !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

t120rbullet

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 02:13:58 PM »
Try using 2 paper gaskets.

If not you might have to lap the cover in with some valve grinding compound if it did warp.
Make sure you get it 100% clean after using that method.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 03:38:42 PM »
G5 right?  Can't you just flip it 180 degrees?  Might seal better that way.  On the C5 there are 3 bolts and you can rotate 120 degrees.

Scott

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 03:41:47 PM »
It leaks either way Scotty.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

barenekd

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 05:32:17 PM »
Time to get out the magnifying glass and check for porosity or cracks!
Check both the cap and the underlying structure.
When I was working in the Triumph shop, we had a 500 that kept coming in with an oil leak at the cylinder base. the guy who did the warranty work ahd regasketed it several, when I figured it was time for a closer look. The cylinder base had a small porosity hole in between the cylinders. Fixed that and it was never to return for the leak.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 06:07:29 PM »
Have you replaced the rubber oring on the filter cap?  Not the paper gasket.

Scott

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 07:08:28 PM »
EVERYTHING is new.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 07:19:59 PM »
Hmmmm....

On the G5 that inner o-ring is what really should do all the sealing.  If it's in good shape the paper gasket shouldn't even matter.

Have you taken a really good look at the filter cover?  Are there any tiny cracks?  It's not uncommon for them to get some on the ears if they've been overtightened.  Maybe one from the center bolt that holds the springs and plate?  Might be good to take a close look at the side case for cracks as well.

Scott

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 07:30:42 PM »
It leaks from the gasket. The O-ring is tight as a frogs ass when inserting it into the oil cavity. The O-ring is always lubed with Motul when I'm reinstalling the cover. That is why I'm wondering if there could be too much internal oil pressure. Ive got a tough one here , I sincerely appreciate the advice Ive been given so far.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

t120rbullet

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 08:02:52 PM »
That is why I'm wondering if there could be too much internal oil pressure.

What's been done to the engine that would increase the oil pressure ?
Take the right side cover off to replace the sprocket and goop it back up with RTV silicone ?
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Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 08:35:04 PM »
You hit the nail on the head. I was very careful not to goop any passages when doing so. I am not a cub, Ive had motors apart in the past and never had an oil leak or any repercussions from doing so. That's why I am so frustrated. And you have my undivided attention. Do I detect an Epiphany ?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 08:40:28 PM by Jack Leis »
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

gremlin

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 08:57:06 PM »
drill it, tap it, & screw in a gauge .....
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
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1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
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Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 11:33:47 PM »
A properly installed O-ring in that cover will seal pressures up to 1500 psi internal pressure.
At pressures higher than 1500 psi the O-rings material will start to flow into the gap between the cover and the bore but I don't think we have to worry about that on a RE.

If the O-ring was the wrong thickness or diameter it will be hard to install and it will leak.

The correct thickness will easily fit into the slot in the cover.  It should have about .006-.015 total side clearance to the groove.
This clearance is reduced when the O-ring is installed because the squeeze on the O-rings inside and outside diameter will deform its shape and the O-rings material needs a place to grow into.  The clearance gives it the space.
  If it won't slip easily into the groove it will leak when it's installed.

The diameter of the installed O-ring when it is on the cap  (before installation) should be .010-.022 larger than the inside of the bore where it will rest.  If it is larger than this it will be very difficult to install and will probably leak.

The inside diameter of the O-ring is always smaller than the groove diameter it fits on.  This gives it a slight stretch when it is installed.
A O-rings inside diameter that is slightly smaller than the recommended size will often work but a O-ring that has a larger inside diameter  than  the bottom of the groove it is installed on will always leak.  This condition is easily detected by seeing if the O-ring moves freely after it is installed into the groove.  If it does, it will leak.

Of course, any nick or irregularity in the inner or outer surface of a O-ring will cause a leak.
A nick on the inside of the O-ring can be caused while putting it carelessly over the sharp edges of the groove while installing it on the shaft but this seldom happens.

The sharp edge of the chamfer (or lead in) leading into the filter cavity can nick the outside of the O-ring during installation.  It only takes one small nick to cause a leak.

This is fairly common in all O-ring installations and it explains why the jet engine company I worked at for 40 years had a  specification created that required the removal of the sharp edge of the chamfer meeting the bore, it being replaced by a small polished radius with no undercuts permitted.

Anyway, I would look for a replacement O-ring that is the right size and gently round off the lead in chamfer in the housing before installing the new O-ring.
I'm sure this will fix the problem.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 11:47:26 PM »
Thanks Jim ! Regarding the chamfer, I did that months ago. What I did just do is installed an o-ring and gasket that I recently got in a Hitchkock's care package. The gasket was of better quality than that of Nfield gear and the o-ring is beefier as well. Its getting ready to rain here so I'm going to have to wait for the results but just idling in the garage it is holding it's own. Thanks for all the input. I love this forum !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 11:57:31 PM »
As I mentioned above, beefier is not better.
To work right, the O-ring must be the right size.

Too large of an inside diameter, too thick of a cross-section or both will doom it to failure.
Jim
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Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 12:00:37 AM »
More to be revealed Jim.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 12:11:45 AM »
As I mentioned above, beefier is not better.
To work right, the O-ring must be the right size.

Too large of an inside diameter, too thick of a cross-section or both will doom it to failure.

+1.

mattsz

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 01:05:28 AM »
When I took delivery of my bike, I asked the dealer to bring along two oil filters and requisite o-rings.  He brought the filters, and a pair of rings that looked like they should fit the cap.  When we changed the oil the first time, it was apparent that this ring, while seemingly the correct overall diameter, was too "thick" in cross section to fit easily into the recess on the cap.  We reused the ring that was there, and I did the same again for the second oil change.  I have since gotten a slew of o-rings in the oil change kit from NFG - including what looks like rings to match the size installed.  You'd hope that the dealers would get it right...

gremlin

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »
.............You'd hope that the dealers would get it right........

Hope in one hand & .........
1996 Trophy 1200
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1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
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Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 02:37:52 PM »
Hope in one hand & .........
    Plus One Gremlin !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 07:13:35 PM »
This forum is a hoot!  I've had an intermittent leak from that oil filter cover since I got the bike.  Last night I changed the oil & filter.  This time they gave me a new o-ring with it... well, I'll be darned if it isn't the correct size now.  I thought that old one looked a bit small in that groove!

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 07:16:31 PM »
Thats what Im talking about. In my case, Nfield gear on the left, Hitchcock's on the right.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 07:33:21 PM »
Actually, the packing on the left looks to me to be the right size if it is a stretch fit on the inside diameter and it is protruding about .010 above the adjacent metal diameter of the cap.  The side to side clearance in the slot must have clearance.

The one on the right could be the right size but before installing it I would check to see it slips loosely down into the packing groove. It should clear the walls of the groove by about ten thousandths of an inch (3 pieces of printer paper).
If the Hitchcock one is a tight fit (side to side) it is the wrong one.
If the Hitchcock one is a loose fit (side to side) it probably is okay to use as long as it isn't sticking out above the adjacent metal cover diameter over .020".
Jim
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Afro Samurai

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2012, 07:37:15 PM »
Guys.. Guys.. its a brit bike.. if it doesnt leak oil.. how can you tell if it works?.. ha.. ha... dont get mad at me...

Just did my oil change.. with parts from nfield gear... now I am worried... will have to check when I get back...

I bought a slew of orings.. from mcmastercarr.com  .. all diff sizes.. anybody got any measurements on the oring size that wont leak?.. surely a metric size?.. or standard size?... looks like I need to make a call to parker oring.. and get something speacial out fo stock.. one of those "x" cross section types...

ok... somebody just answered part of my questions.. thanks Arizoni

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2012, 07:46:06 PM »
Thats what Im talking about. In my case, Nfield gear on the left, Hitchcock's on the right.

The one on the left was in the bike when I got it, the one on the right was from Doug Douglass.  I've bought 2 filters from them, the first had no o-ring, the second had 2 o-rings.

The cap slipped on very easily (loosely) with the old one.

mattsz

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2012, 08:35:37 PM »
Lars-

I can't tell much from your photo, but those rings look kind of like what I had.  Only, the slighter one, like the one on the left, was what was installed and fit fine, and didn't leak.  The beefier one, like on the right, was supplied from the dealer, along with the filters, and it didn't fit - it was just a hair too big...

LarsBloodbeard

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2012, 12:34:54 AM »
Without a micrometer, it's hard to compare yours to mine.  But like I said, the cap was a loose fit.  Also there was plenty of room in that o-ring channel.  The larger one looks more correct to me.  Time will tell if the leak is gone...

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2012, 02:29:20 AM »
 The first time I ever changed my filter I bought one that came with a cap o-ring from Art at Douglas and it never leaked. He spoiled me ! I bought the "big kit" from Nfield gear and that's when the problems started. As you stated Lars, time will tell.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

singhg5

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 03:53:04 AM »
I had measured the size of these O-rings with a caliper and came up with numbers in the picture below. I would say these are the best estimates - may not be absolute numbers.

Smallest one =  9mm id  and 13mm od
Middle one   =  35mm id and 42mm od
Large one     =  42mm id  and 48mm od

I must say that it is not so easy to accurately measure because O-ring changes shape with slightest pressure and readings change. Even while measuring thickness, it can compress easily and give different values.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 04:03:18 AM by singhg5 »
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singhg5

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2012, 03:54:20 AM »
These are pictures of one of the O-rings in caliper.

1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2012, 04:17:26 AM »
Singh, you are indeed THE MAN. Thank you !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2012, 04:53:14 AM »
The Service Manual just shows a part number for the filter cap O-ring.
It is #570432, which could be anything.  I was hoping it would give the size and crossectional thickness.

OH!  If you are running one of the older Adobe Readers that has the "search" button which finds every place your search word appears in the document DO NOT UPDATE IT TO READER XI.
I did that last night only to find that the handy "search" feature is gone in the Reader XI.

You know, the search button that will find all 173 places where that word appears in the document, and by clicking on each one you can rapidly jump thru the file to find what your looking for.  IT IS GONE dammit.
Not only is it gone, but installing it wiped out my older saved versions of Reader 5 and Reader 8 so I can't even reinstall them.
Talk about a crappy update!
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2012, 06:41:04 AM »
Don't you just hate it when your all grumpy about some program screwing up your computer and you mention it to the significient other and she/he says, "Oh.  Just hit the EDIT button and you'll find the search thingie there."

OK, if she/he is wrong it does give you an ace to keep up your sleeve but when she/he is right it makes you feel dumb.
The "SEARCH" feature on the new Adobe Reader 11 is under the EDIT button. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Afro Samurai

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2012, 11:35:23 AM »
yep.. hard to measure.. but gives some idea.. .

i really need to check mine.. soon as I get back.. hate to think whats going on while im away...

jartist

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2012, 04:29:49 PM »
I am learning a ton from Jack's oil leak! O-rings, I always thought the bigger they are the more they squish and seal but apparently not the case, and now pdf file word searches! You guys do rock!

Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2012, 04:40:40 PM »
The Royal Enfield Forum. The gift that keeps on giving !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2012, 09:57:33 PM »
Are we even talking about motorcycles any more?  I got lost :(

trimleyman

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2012, 03:35:06 AM »
Oh my, you guys will be talking operating systems next. Linux rules, windows sucks, ha ha.
Now 2011 Royal Enfield G5 and just added 2014 Continental GT
Then:-
1978 Ducati 900 GTES
1969 Ducati 350 Desmo Racer
1972 Mototrans Ducati 250 24 Horas
1965 Triumph Tiger Cub 200
1967 BSA Bantum

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2012, 03:43:03 AM »
I'm still a fan if OS2.  :P

Arizoni

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2012, 05:01:28 AM »
Those are all sissy programs.  Now, a real man does all his work in UNIX, or if he has hair on his chest he's still running FORTRAN.   ;D ;D
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

gremlin

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2012, 05:36:49 AM »
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


Jack Leis

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2012, 02:12:51 PM »
Put 250 miles on my bike yesterday. No leak. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 02:30:47 PM »
If he uses FORTRAN he may have hair on this chest but most likely none left on his head

gremlin

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2012, 04:55:56 PM »
If he uses FORTRAN he may have hair on this chest but most likely none left on his head

and a walker .....
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


Desi Bike

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2012, 05:11:01 PM »
If he uses FORTRAN he may have hair on this chest but most likely none left on his head

I resemble that remark! Lol
I learned on a PDP 11 running COBOL. Friggin punch cards....
میں نہیں چاہتا کہ ایک اچار
میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

motorat

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2012, 05:31:53 PM »
i worked on a ibm 7000 series on moffet field in the early 80's along with a couple of pdp 11's.
reboot by setting the address on the switches on the front or the real fast way...paper tape.
Joe
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barenekd

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »
Quote
OH!  If you are running one of the older Adobe Readers that has the "search" button which finds every place your search word appears in the document DO NOT UPDATE IT TO READER XI.
I did that last night only to find that the handy "search" feature is gone in the Reader XI.

Buy PDF Converter Professional from Nuance. It does everything Adobe Acrobat does for about 1/3 of the price. So if you mess with PDF files, this is the way to go.  Hope this doesn't come over as spam, because I sure ain't getting anything out of it!
Bare
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gremlin

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Re: Filter cover oil leak
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 05:40:11 PM »
i worked on a ibm 7000 series on moffet field in the early 80's ........

ARTS ?
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250