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Author Topic: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !  (Read 1353 times)

BRADEY

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Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« on: November 30, 2012, 09:13:53 AM »
My 2010 C500 has been running a bit rough lately :(
It seemed to hiccup a lot (as if short on fuel) on low throttle and on a quick "roll on" from a "rolled off" throttle. So I decided to run the "Sensors test" with the test pin provided on the ECU. I switched on the ignition, let the ECU run its test, then inserted a test wire in the test pin of the ECU and earthed the other end of the wire with the frame.

To my surprise I see 6 long and 6 short blinks on the ECU check light. After verifying with the ECU Error Code guide, I realise this denotes a malfunctioning of the Crank Position Sensor. There is more surprise for me, becuase in such a case, the guide states, the engine will crank but not start however, my bike is running well otherwise, especially on open roads. Its just in the traffic situations that I am facing a lot of hiccups.

Kevin and other Grand Gearheads, Grease Monkeys please Help ??
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 09:17:47 AM by BRADEY »

jartist

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 10:16:51 AM »
Careful with the codes. I have a crankshaft sensor code stored too but there's nothing wrong with my bike.  I'm guessing that the code was stored during a kickback or other anomaly and once the code is stored it's there forever unless you clear it with a tool nobody has.  Try the easy stuff first like new spark plug, disconnect sidestand switch, check battery wires, and give the battery a good charge, and run some fuel/ injector cleaner in a tank of gas.

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 11:03:31 AM »
On other bikes these are known to fail over time.  The bike will run fine most of the time then run erratically.  A friend's mechanic told him that when it acted up just bonk it a few times.  That would get it back inline for a while until he had the money to get a new one.

It may be failing but not totally broken yet, which may explain why it runs poorly sometimes.  I'd suggest taking it to the mechanic to get it checked out.  They may not have the diagnostic computer but they can check for other problems that could cause rough running in traffic.  If there's nothing else obvious replace the sensor.

Scott

Singh_Chicago

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 11:22:35 AM »
My G5 started running rough lately, while I was on the road. I changed the sparkplug that fixed the issue but I think it's been running rich - need to check the airfilter. The spark plug (NGKBPR6ES)came out was black and had around 50 miles or may be it has to do with the short trips at low speed and load.

Also check if the -ve and + ve terminals on battery are intact.

Vince

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 11:23:33 AM »
     Most of your symptoms can be (and probably are) from water in the gas. I get this A LOT. Drain the tank. Remove the fuel pump and drain it. Remove the injector and dump it. Reassemble and dump in fresh gas. You'll probably be fine.
     Your quick twist of the throttle will cause virtually ANY engine to stumble. You are changing vacuum faster than the ECU can compensate for at low RPM.

barenekd

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 12:30:46 PM »
Quote
It seemed to hiccup a lot (as if short on fuel) on low throttle and on a quick "roll on" from a "rolled off" throttle. So I decided to run the "Sensors test" with the test pin provided on the ECU.

Usually the crank sensor will fail when it gets hot as your blasting down the HOV lane. The bike acts like it's running out of gas and will park you on the side of the road. It will cool down in a few minutes and run again until it gets hot. Then it will quit again. It can do this repeatedly until it quits for good. the bike won't start then. I've had four or five of those fail on a couple of Triumphs. I think there have been a couple of failures posted on the forum. Fortunately, they aren't terribly expensive.
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iron.head

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 12:42:10 PM »
Crank Shaft positioning sensor malfunction error is there by default on every bike which is not started i.e. burning fuel. Did you check for the error code when the bike was not started? Now this error might be stored in the ECU Log and will show up every time you will test for error codes, but you can try once again with the bike started.

Every RE territory service head here in India is given a Keihin ECU tool which connects to a laptop and bike via cables. This tool can be used to erase the error log and check for new errors(if any). This tool is also used to update ECU maps. Your RE authorized service people must be having this tool too.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 12:47:15 PM by iron.head »

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »
Nope.  They buy the tools they need but I don't think they are required to buy anything.

I suspect that everyone in India has them becuase they had to remap the EFI on a whole bunch of the early bikes.  We didn't have that problem here in the States.

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iron.head

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2012, 01:44:58 PM »
Did not know that RE has not provided this tool to service people abroad.

Here in India there are multiple dealers/RE owned showrooms in every city. These dealers have to run and maintain individual workshops on their own. These workshops are regularly inspected/audited by RE managers and some senior RE managers as well. RE gives this tool to all it's managers to be able to diagnose issues with bikes.

It might be true that this tool was so widely distributed because of the remapping that was done here.

BRADEY

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2012, 01:44:35 AM »
Iron Head: I am not sure if the the test pin is to be used, with the engine started. I think we only need to turn on the ignition but the engine should be shut......
Otherwise it could blow off the ECU.....I am not certain!

barenekd

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2012, 05:05:23 PM »
The tool is available here, but it is several hundred dollars, so most dealers have run the ROI (Return on Investment) numbers and don't see any. You
could run a poll on the dealers and see if one has one, but I don't know of any offhand that do.
Bare
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 05:07:34 PM by barenekd »
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 05:12:14 PM »
How much exactly is several hundred?  I'd consider buying one myself.  I had the TechnoResearch aftermarket one for my Ducati.

Scott

BRADEY

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 12:03:55 AM »
The dongle that attaches to the EFI will be easier to source, but what about the Proprietary Royal Enfield Software.........is that on sale as well ? I very much doubt it !

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2012, 08:43:09 AM »
1. You cannot remap these ECU's. This is brand protection my Keihin.
2. The factory supplied DOL cost $2,500 and is a waste of money. (Not their fault Keihin is doing the ripping off here. If you can find one for less buy it. BTW that is not out of line for one of these tolds except normally they are a module that works on units for many brands)The factory guys have them because the factory bought a bunch of them and no one bought them. They were told they were going to be $1,500 until Keihin delivered them. It is proprietary to Keihin and is a total rip. The software it uses is something from 1996 in terms of being elegant. It is helpful for setting the TPS without a voltage meter or sometimes seeing an intermittent fault in real time. The owners manual (seldom read it seems) gives instructions for using the built in code reader. (engine off)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 12:46:23 PM »
Thanks for giving us the details Kevin.  Good to know it's not worth the price.  The factory computer hookups are generally pretty pricey, and of limited utility since the EPA and EU mandate that you can't change the map.  I wish there were any easy way to reset codes after you cleared them but you can't have everything.

Scott

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2012, 12:01:28 AM »
You can use the Power Commander device which is an onboard device that essentially tricks the ECU into a new map by giving it erroneous device readings. The trouble is that you have to develop your own map which is not for the faint of heart. I toyed with selling them, but they were too much trouble for the average consumer

idk

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2012, 03:35:18 PM »
It is a pity that they can't be hooked up to a computer so that something like TuneECU (or TuneBoy) could be used. I use it regularly with my Triumph and consider it an essential tool for diagnostics, tuning, and repairs. They seem to have cracked the Kehin Kode.  ::)
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »
Power Commander does make a 'learning module', someone posted about it here a while ago.  You plug it in and ride around and it takes readings and bulds your new map as you ride.  Once it's filled in you just disconnect it an enjoy the custom made map.  It was pretty pricey though.

Scott

ace.cafe

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2012, 04:05:17 PM »
I'm just quietly standing over in the corner, working with various people to see what I can come up with regarding this ECU thing.
I'm not a computer geek, but I know how to find resources and apply them to things that I need to get done.
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 02:32:11 AM »
In this day and age I am sure someone can crack this thing. We have tried a couple of people and the Brits have done same. The UK guy needed to start with the factory DOL and smoked it for $2,500 so that experiment ended. We have not put too much energy into it because it brings up all sorts of EPA type questions that we do not want to be part of.

BRADEY

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 06:02:40 AM »
If it's a Classic, and can be run on a carb setup,
I do not see why we should have the ECU
in the first place  ;)

gremlin

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 11:17:36 AM »
...............it brings up all sorts of EPA type questions that we do not want to be part of.

Nor should you be.   We shouldn't want to jeopardize the import of these fine machines.

Having said that;  it sure would be nice to have a source of technical information that can fully document the algorithms (maps) provided in the factory controller.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 12:28:57 PM »
Yup.  That's more of an aftermarket, sold for "race only" thing.  Not good for the importer to be too close to it I imagine.

Scott

Gypsyjon

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 08:11:17 PM »
I know just enough to be dangerous...that said I had Power Commander a module on my last  Harley. I hooked the whole mess up to my lap top while the module was on the bike an tuned the electronics for more HP and also richened the fuel mixture. That with a Stage I kit and some other simple mods made for a pretty hot, pretty much stock 88ci Twin Cam FLHRCI.

Not sure if this is germane to this discussion, so take it in the spirit that it is given.
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Crankshaft Position Sensor, Kevin Help !
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 10:35:34 PM »
I think you would have to rig up an AVL ignition to use a carburetor or be pretty good with a wiring diagram and cutting and splicing. Yes the Power Commander comment is germane to the conversation