HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

REDCON1


in
Members Rides

59 Guests, 0 Users
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 01, 2014, 07:41:16 AM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc  (Read 3636 times)

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 03:09:14 AM »
Scotty there can't be an auto advance bolted on tha Mag. When that mag is bolted to the engine the adaptor the round piece of aluminum that the mag is bolted to there is no way you can put an advance on the shaft because the shaft is to short under the cover where your cam timing gears are. The only mag that bolts directley to the cover making the shaft longer is the SR2. The mag you have on there needs to have a manual advance hooked to it.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2012, 11:25:45 PM »
Scottie, Here's a picture of a mag that I took out of a running Trailblazer. Put it up against your Mag picture you can see the manual advance and also look at point plate. See how they are different. I think the one you have is a different rotation. Making all the timing trouble your having.    ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2012, 11:28:02 PM »
Forgot picture
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4467
  • Karma: 1
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2012, 01:57:32 AM »
ERC
That mag looks very similar to the one I was looking at today.
It was on a BSA twin and yes, it had a similar advance cable leading to a control on the handlebars.

The thing I find strange is in the original post it was mentioned that the bike was running and there was a good spark.

Although it might not have been running very well, it must have been close to being right.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2012, 11:54:21 PM »
Arizoni I'd have to guess but I think that mag is the wrong one. It would get spark no matter which way it turned. But how it would start could be anyones guess. I wonder how long it was running? His best bet is to remove it and have it checked out.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

carlo

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 92
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
Has anyone considered that it might not be timing at all?
Given that the bike was supposedly running well prior to this happening, I'd suspect a breakdown in the armature winding rather than timing.
I've experienced two K2F failures due to this, and both times, when removed from the engine and grounded against the cylinder heads, the sparkplugs produced what seemed to be an adequate spark, yet installed in the engine, the best it would do is fire up and idle for a few seconds. As soon as any attempt was made to actually get usable power from the engine, it would quit running.
Regarding the "manual advance" version of the K2F (the one that just failed in my Interceptor was one of this type), the default position of these (assuming the pawl and spring are in place) would be full advance. If the Pawl and spring are missing, it's anyone's guess where the camring is going to be positioned.
The lever pulls the pawl out against the spring pressure, pulling a notch in the cam ring and rotating it to a retarded position. Moving the lever back allows the spring to push the pawl and camring back to the advanced position.
 
I'm still in the process of converting my Mk1 Interceptor to distributor and points ignition, borrowing the Lucas distributor from my Indian Tomahawk, which probably won't be needing it for another year.
In the meantime, I'll be looking for a more permanent solution, possibly the BTH magneto you guys are talking about.

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4059
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2012, 04:24:58 AM »
Carlo, that sounds exactly like what happened to me!  I got the bike running initially, but it didn't run very good.  Automatically assumed it was a fuel issue and went to town on the carb.  But over the course of 10 days or so, every single time I  started it, it ran worse and worse and worse.  But, the last couple days before it quit all together, I could start it and get it to idle, but the millisecond I applied any throttle it puked right out.

AS FAR AS AUTOMATIC OR MANUAL ADVANCE:
ERC, This magneto most certainly does NOT have a cable attached to it like the picture of the one you posted.  I am 100% convinced that I have an Auto Advance set up.  Because after messing around with that points plate for over 2 weeks, I'm telling you, there is NO adjustment on that thing.  It is truly one of the most bizarre set ups I have ever seen.  And just to clear the air, I have set points on several different machines over the course of the last 18 years, and my magneto is just goofy.

So, back to what is most likely the issue here.  CARLO, who do I need to talk to about getting this ting rebuilt?

And thanks everyone for input!
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance Twin

Join My Facebook Group!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/961468183867002

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4467
  • Karma: 1
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2012, 04:52:07 AM »
Scottie:
As I've mentioned before magneto's are somewhat of a mystery to me but in the first post you said the mag was producing a excellent spark.

When you said, "excellent" did you mean there was a nice thin blue spark between the spark plug electrodes or did you mean there was a large healthy blue spark with a pronounced snap sound?

My reason for asking is a lot of people will look at a thin blue spark and say, Yup!  That's working."

As you probably know, these thin blue sparks can fail to happen when they are in a highly pressurized environment like a combustion chamber with the piston at TDC.

On the other hand, a large healthy spark with a Snap or Pop will work in the engine fine.

If the spark is the healthy Snapping kind, I can't see how the mag could be making it if the windings were shorting or otherwise defective.

As for the advance and retard of the timing, if your mag is a automatic type, they looked like all of the advancing/retarding was controlled on the gear end in the pictures I looked at.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4059
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2012, 04:57:13 AM »
You know, it's sparking, but it's definitely not "snapping".

I've been cranking wrenches for almost 20 years, and this bike has me completely baffled.  And it's pissing me because it's cool as shit and I want to ride the damn thing!  LOL
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance Twin

Join My Facebook Group!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/961468183867002

rotorwrench

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2012, 01:01:18 AM »
It's too bad you don't have the original SR2 mag that the Trailblazers came with. It also used an automatic advance unit but it is less of a hassel to replace the capacitor (condenser) so was much easier to repair if something went wrong with the ignition. The 700cc Indian Apaches and Connies  had the early K2F with cable retard adjuster on the handlebar but the early 750cc Interceptors changed to auto advance for reliability reasons. Yours looks like the ones on the early 750 models.

I've seen the advance units brazed up in full advance before so anything is possible with bikes as old as these RE twins. If you haven't already, you should take the timing cover off and have a look at that advance unit and make certain your magneto drive chain is in good order. If chain and advance unit is good, at least you are in a position to remove the mag and inspect it more closely. The K2F has its capacitor attached in the rotating coil and its a B!tch to replace so most folks have a professional rework them to insure the unit is functioning properly on a test stand before refitting it. It's not uncommon to have a bad capacitor with the K2F. Make certain all the internal timing and points adjustments are correct before refitting the mag. You have to hold the mag advance unit in full advance to set your ignition timing during the refitting process. First you set the right cylinder piston the the proper depth BTDC on the compression stroke. Install the advance unit just finger tight so you can manipulate the armature of the mag.  Rotate the mag armature forward (counter clock wise looking at the points plate) while holding the advance mechanism against spring tension with a wire or similar tool. Set the mag so the points just start to open with the advance unit held in advance and the right cylinder high tension pick up aligned. Tighten the advance unit up then rotate the engine through and check the left cylinder on compression stroke to confirm it is synchronized. After the timing process is completed then the timing cover can be reinstalled.

You can purchase manuals on CD now for these old machines that cover several different models so you can compare. The 750 models were timed to 5/16" to 11/32" but the old 700cc Trailblazer was 3/8" to 7/16" BTDC with the SR2 mag. 3/8" should be close enough. With the old cable adjustable advance/retard K2F mag you could play with the timing while riding the bike but generaly you only needed to retard on a long hill climb, otherwise you just left them fully advanced except when starting, then you go to retard so it won't launch you over the bars.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 02:29:03 PM by rotorwrench »

SRL790

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Karma: 0
  • 1954 350
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2012, 06:21:07 PM »
Scottie,

Since I run a '54 Bullet with original mag (with manual advance) I've been following this thread.  It took three rebuilds by two different shops to get mine working reliably.  Incidently, mine is timed 7/16" BTD and I generally leave it at full advance, but she will kick back occaisionally when starting.  I do retard it a little if pulling up a long hill.

One of the common culprits for a weak spark is the condensor.  On the first rebuild my bike would start fine from cold then quit after about 10 miles.  Let it cool off for half an hour and it would start and run another few miles.  Second rebuild it would start and run ok but if you shut it off (or stalled it) you'd better go get a beer somewhere because again it would not restart for half an hour.

So, if you suspect a weak spark and the windings check out OK with a meter (ie continuity and not grounded) you might try one of these "Brightspark" condensors.
http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/
Been seeing them on E-bay but don't know much about them but for 20 something bucks might be worth a try before paying for a rebuild.

My 2 cents worth,

Andy
Andy Wiltshire
54 350 Bullet, 62 Jaguar MK II, 68 BSA Spitfire, 69 BSA Starfire
70 Bonneville, 71 Bonneville, 71 BSA B25T, 74 Jensen Healey
74 Honda XR75, 81 Yamaha MX80, 82 Suzuki GS1100G

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2012, 11:50:56 PM »
I think your best bet is to pull the timing cover like Rotor says and see what you have in there.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

skipsoldbikes

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2012, 02:07:50 AM »
Hello "ERC" I am new to this forum, but not to English bikes, or Lucas magneto's. I am the guy on ebay-USA selling the Brightspark condensers. In addition, I also rebuild Lucas & BTH magnetos. I would be happy to look at your mag for free (as is my policy) as long as you ship it to me well packed & insured. Once I can do some accurate testing, I will be able to tell you exactly what the trouble is. If you want me to fix it, great, if not, I will gladly sent it back to you as is at no cost to you. It would be irresponsible for me to try to diagnose you mag trouble without testing it. My ebay handle is "skipsoldbikes" and you will be able to see my feedback for my sales. My "real" name is Skip Brolund & I live near Cleveland Ohio. I am not sure where you are located, but I wouldn't think shipping would be more than $15 ? My business email is [email protected] if you want to ask me any questions?
As I am new on this forum, please let me know if it is OK to offer help like this, since I have a commercial interest.
There are certainly higher quality magnetos that have been made than some of the Lucas units, but once set up correctly, with quality parts & service, they go for years without trouble .

rotorwrench

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 179
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2012, 02:36:15 PM »
Having an easily replaceable capacitor for the K2F is a really good idea. It would require removal of the old OEM capacitor with proper electrical connection of the coil winding for the new type to be used but that shouldn't be a very big alteration and could be easily returned to OEM if requested.

The old capacitors were made with materials that have been outdated for many years. With the unit in good functional order, a K2F magneto is a very good performing unit. The Prince of Darkness (Joe Lucas) had some good ideas but materials and technology have come a long way since his ideas were put into production.

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
  • Karma: 0
Re: Timing Trouble On My 1958 Indian Trailblazer 700cc
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2012, 09:05:27 PM »
Hi Skip, Tha's good to know, I think that Scottie J would benefit from getting in touch with you for help with the mag he is having trouble with.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.