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Author Topic: Big Brother...  (Read 7948 times)

ace.cafe

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2013, 04:18:51 PM »
You can tell which Jew or Gypsy is who by their phone number?  I did not know that...  is it in the prefix or the suffix that is so telling?

AgentX I think has explained it well enough.  What has happend and not necessarily for the good, is the 24 hour and instant second news cycle.  Once the talking heads and headline grabbing cable networks get a hold of an item like this issue, its completely overhyped and over exaggerated.  I dont believe everything ghe govt has to say on may issues, but If it makes me feel safe, and  I can walk the streets in some comfort of secruity, then do what's necessary..
So, you'd be in favor of complete tyranny and locking everybody away in a rubber room for the rest of your life, just in case it might make you feel "safe", right?
Just how far would you let them go with this oppression?

"Safe" from "whom", exactly?
Who's protecting us from these spies, and Holder's "Fast and Furious" gun-running scam to the Mexican drug mobs, or the IRS political enemy targeting, or Hillary's secret arms deals in Benghazi with Al Quaeda, etc, etc?
I'm not feeling very "safe". Not sure why you are.

It appears to me that the ones that we need to be "safe" from are these reckless government jack-boots running rough-shod over the American people, based on some unfounded theory that any of it had anything to do with safety, which it does NOT and never did.
You're witnessing Nazi Germany 1938 redux, and you appear to be cheering it on.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 04:40:25 PM by ace.cafe »

rvcycleguy

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2013, 04:44:21 PM »
So, you'd be in favor of complete tyranny and locking everybody away in a rubber room for the rest of your life, just in case it might make you feel "safe", right?
Just how far would you let them go with this oppression?

"Safe" from "whom", exactly?
Who's protecting us from these spies, and Holder's "Fast and Furious" gun-running scam to the Mexican drug mobs, or the IRS political enemy targeting, or Hillary's secret arms deals in Benghazi with Al Quaeda, etc, etc?
I'm not feeling very "safe". Not sure why you are.

It appears to me that the ones that we need to be "safe" from are these reckless government jack-boots running rough-shod over the American people, based on some unfounded theory that any of it had anything to do with safety, which it does NOT and never did.
You're witnessing Nazi Germany 1938 redux, and you are one of the ones cheering it on.

Ace,

I hope to do business with you someday as a customer for parts etc. for my 56 RE, so don't hold it against me to disagree.

Regarding that rubber roof...   if the ones that are in it are planning on harming US citizens, then yes.

The IRS issue-completely overblown.  The right wing loyalists (Tea Party) who created tax shelters to shield campaign money were coming out of the woodwork right and left.  The program was meant to determine of they were appropriate and spending the majority of their income on charity causes as the charter they completed. 

Hillary's secrets?  your watching too much TV and not riding your MC
1956 Bullet 500 (G2) Custom tank, Silencer Muffler, Powder Coated Chassis
2006 Suzuki Boulevard C50 (800cc) Touring set-up. white walls, pearl white w/ ghost flames

rvcycleguy

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2013, 04:53:33 PM »
You do realize Ace, that these NSA programs were started with the Bush Administration and AG Ashcroft.  Its not a Eric Holder doctrine. These programs have been around for some time, its just been criminally leaked due to some kids bad conscious.  if you can't keep a secret, don't say you will...  Technology has changed the world we exist in. War is not in dug-out trenches and jungles anymore.  There are cultures and groups that want to wipe us off the map. Whatever we can do to prevent that, I'm in.       

If "they" want to look at who I'm calling, have at it.  Nothing to hide here.  if they want to see who I emailed, have at it.  nothing to hide here.    Look, the 911 hijackers came here for flight training.  They phoned home weekly.  They received money for expenses.  Took months and years to plan.  Maybe, just maybe, if we had the NSA looking, that tragedy could have been avoided. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 04:58:03 PM by rvcycleguy »
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ace.cafe

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2013, 05:03:55 PM »
Ace,

I hope to do business with you someday as a customer for parts etc. for my 56 RE, so don't hold it against me to disagree.

Regarding that rubber roof...   if the ones that are in it are planning on harming US citizens, then yes.

The IRS issue-completely overblown.  The right wing loyalists (Tea Party) who created tax shelters to shield campaign money were coming out of the woodwork right and left.  The program was meant to determine of they were appropriate and spending the majority of their income on charity causes as the charter they completed. 

Hillary's secrets?  your watching too much TV and not riding your MC

I don't have a TV, and haven't had one for 14 years.
TV is the propaganda machine.
I realized that it would never spend anywhere near as much attention on this as it should.
Every political appointee and elected official that had any hand or oversight or even any knowledge of any of these issues should be immediately fired or impeached. All these programs/projects and their associated bureaucracies need to be immediately shut down.
The culture of corruption has got to stop.

And yes I realize that much of this originated in the Bush administration, and I was against all of it then too, because since I have been studying the course of the political activity over the last 100 years, it has become painfully obvious that the real agenda of those running govt is completely different than what they would have us believe.
And THAT is why stuff like this is a giant red flashing warning beacon, and we had better treat it as such. They are no longer our "public servants". They have decided that they are our masters. The worm has turned, and it would behoove us to recognize it.

GreenMachine

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2013, 06:06:15 PM »
I hope to do business with you someday as a customer for parts etc. for my 56 RE, so don't hold it against me to disagree.

Ace:  Guess if u don't play ball. you lost a customer...

Got to love it. IMO , this specific constitutional issue affects everyone regardless of political beliefs and required readdress by the Supreme court. .As it stands right now, even if the American people voted to dismantle this project, it's not going to happen .It will just blow away and you'll just have to be happy  watching another episode of "Life in Florida" or American Idol .  I would find the U.S government vs Snowden trail  much more enlightening on cspan....
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rvcycleguy

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2013, 06:18:29 PM »
I hope to do business with you someday as a customer for parts etc. for my 56 RE, so don't hold it against me to disagree.

Ace:  Guess if u don't play ball. you lost a customer...

Got to love it. IMO , this specific constitutional issue affects everyone regardless of political beliefs and required readdress by the Supreme court. .As it stands right now, even if the American people voted to dismantle this project, it's not going to happen .It will just blow away and you'll just have to be happy  watching another episode of "Life in Florida" or American Idol .  I would find the U.S government vs Snowden trail  much more enlightening on cspan....

My point regarding a future customer was that I can agree to disagree with the best of them and I hope he does not hold it against me when I order parts.
1956 Bullet 500 (G2) Custom tank, Silencer Muffler, Powder Coated Chassis
2006 Suzuki Boulevard C50 (800cc) Touring set-up. white walls, pearl white w/ ghost flames

REpozer

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2013, 06:30:58 PM »
I would say something, but I feel like someone is listening,....
 
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ace.cafe

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2013, 07:01:22 PM »
For the record, I don't have a political opposition "hit list" or anything of that nature. I spend enough time on political forums to be able to discuss things objectively.

Regarding the matter of expectations of privacy, there is a clear line between privacy between individuals contracting with their service providers, and an issue of the government demanding that the private organization turn over their entire records base without any clear purpose other than some unsupported platitude that it "keeps us safe, so they want every bit of data on everybody in the country". The 4th Amendment clearly presents the requirements for specific items to be searched for, or seized, and that sufficient probable cause must be presented to a judge that he sees enough likelihood of a crime in progress that he okays the warrant. Just a general thing, like "I want to search the whole country and everybody in it, just because I want to do some giant fishing expedition", is not in the cards, and is entirely unconstitutional.

And let's remember that this is the FISA(Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act), and not the Domestic Spying on the Entire American Population Act. There were plenty of lies told during the selling of this debacle that "only foreign elements will be surveilled, and no Americans will have to worry about this". Now we have everybody in the whole country getting spied on with telephone and emails and internet, and that's only what we have found out about. God knows what they are actually doing that we haven't found out yet.
And let's also remember that there is direct and very recent evidence that any information gotten by Federal Government Agencies is essentially guaranteed to be used for nefarious purposes, exactly as we saw with the IRS hit squad scandal coming to light along with all these other scandals which showed this kind of political hit list policy in virtually every government agency. They can no longer claim that they will be fair and honest because it can easily be seen that they are NOT.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 07:06:15 PM by ace.cafe »

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 07:04:49 PM »
Reasonbale people can hold political differences but sill engage in commerce. I dont see any reason to the contrary. I have a fireball kit in my bullet but have had disagreements with Ace on this very forum. Its all good.

GreenMachine

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2013, 08:10:29 PM »
Ace doesn't do that and neither would I.  I suspect everyone appreciate the free thoughts ėven if they r monitiored"... ;D
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AgentX

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 01:37:26 AM »
Regarding the matter of expectations of privacy, there is a clear line between privacy between individuals contracting with their service providers... The 4th Amendment clearly presents the requirements for specific items to be searched for, or seized, and that sufficient probable cause must be presented to a judge that he sees enough likelihood of a crime in progress that he okays the warrant. Just a general thing, like "I want to search the whole country and everybody in it, just because I want to do some giant fishing expedition", is not in the cards, and is entirely unconstitutional.

Again, speaking of legalities and not my own opinions:

The 4th Amendment covers when the government accesses things or information residing within a person's reasonable expectation of privacy.  These phone records do not reside within that REP, period.  Thus, the 4th amendment, and its specificity requirement, are legally irrelevant here.  You [currently] have no legal standing to object to the government accessing information at a service provider.  It's no longer your information, it's theirs, and you gave it to them in the course of voluntarily utilizing their services.

However, the point I find interesting is something that pops up in many such cases, which is essentially a point of economies of scale.  First noticed it myself when dealing with government agents installing GPS trackers on vehicles without warrants.  On one hand, it's clear constitutional standard that you enjoy zero REP in your movements in public spaces.  That's obvious, by the nature of "public."  The .gov doesn't need to show any reason whatsoever to have someone tail you in public...use of devices like beeper-trackers (60s-70s tech) on vehicles without warrant has been upheld, as it's simply an improvement in efficiency, not a change in the nature of your privacy.

So a gps, to me, seemed no different than that at first blush.  Just a more efficient way to tail a subject.  But wait...it is.  Because a beeper still needs an operator, and a few people expending effort to tail you, even if their job is easier.  A gps suddenly enables someone to attach it to the car, then have a computer log your movements for weeks on end.  The implications of the economy of scale here are significant.  Slap one on anyone and everyone's car periodically, and see who happens to go to known drug locations, houses of prostitution, whatever.

We, and the courts, would feel differently about allowing the .gov to follow private citizens around in public if there were enough government agents to shadow all, most, or a significant portion of us whenever we left our front door.  But previously, the .gov's power of surveillance was actually quite limited by the simple fact of the manpower required.

So it's quite likely that we're due for new case law that limits the .gov's powers of surveillance, because with new technology, it can become over-reaching in a way that wasn't previously possible.  And that's the beauty of the Constitution, and why it was designed how it is.

As a counterpoint, though, people should be aware of what new technology does and how it does it before they make assumptions about the inherent "privacy" of things like online social media... (not equating that to universal phone record access, just saying.)

Arizoni

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 04:00:10 AM »
238 years ago, Benjamin Franklin wrote,

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It looks like ole' Ben wouldn't like what is going on now in Washington. :(
Jim
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ace.cafe

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 12:10:29 PM »
re: "expectations of privacy"

Yes, this is all very interesting.
Here's the 4th Amendment text:
-----------------------
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
---------------------------------------
Not seeing anything in there about location or expectations of privacy or placing tracking devices, or any such things. How did I miss it?

Well, this brings up a very important distinction in government, which is the difference between "authority" and "power".
Authority comes from the people, and the government is limited to ONLY what it is permitted by the Constitution, and especially strict prohibitions/instructions of government are enumerated in the Bill of Rights, in order to make certain things crystal clear that they SHALL NOT do .  Period.
That's "authority", and in the US Federal Government, the authority is very strictly limited in terms clearly described in the US Constitution.

But, "power" is another thing completely. It's what government can do simply because it's the biggest baddest street gang on the block, and it has a lot of people with guns who will go after you, on command. No lawful basis necessary. And this is how the majority of the government do things.

So, how does this tie in to the discussion?
Well, it ties in because the "expectation of privacy", and "being in public" is not part of the 4th Amendment which is the restriction on gov't. And the 9th and 10th Amendments say that anything not enumerated is in the purview of the States and the People. NOT in the purview of the Federal Government, right?
Right.
So, all these "interpretations" and "case law" and "precedents" are in fact, made-up fiction. They are not law. They are one-sided decisions by the government that it is going to usurp these aspects which are beyond its specific authority granted by the people. These are decisions made by politically appointed judges, and made with specific intent to set "precedent" so as to expand the latitude of what government can do, based on some lies by a judge, and sworn-to by the rest of the government cronies who will profit  by this "precedent" which increases their power over the people. It is a "jedi mind trick" which makes people think that this is a lawful process, and therefore people think it is lawful, so they they dutifully obey. But it is not lawful. The judiciary has no authority to legislate from the bench. Its role is to decide guilty or not guilty, based on the law. It has been given no authority to make law. But, they use this procedure to make "color of law", so that they can foist it over on everyone and act as if it "is law", when it isn't.(Disclaimer: Simply because it's not "lawful" doesn't mean that they won't throw you in jail or shoot you if you don't obey, so be aware of that.) They use the term "legal".
It's "POWER". And they enforce it as if it is law, when it is not, because they CAN. They have the guns, they have the thugs, they have all our money that they have taken from us to pay for all this, and they use it to control us for their own gain.

"Color of law" is what most governmental operations today are comprised of. That is why the constitution is pushed aside, because it is a painful reminder of how far government has strayed from their commission, into an over-reaching unlawful and oppressive monster that we see today. It is the result of the conniving and scheming of men trying to break the bonds of the Constitution for their own self-aggrandizement and power, for over 100 years. And some would say a significantly longer time period than that.

And for those who want to cling to "case law" or "precedent", then I submit this one that trumps all others.
Marbury vs Madison 1803
"A law which is repugnant to the Constitution is void".

« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:20:29 PM by ace.cafe »

GreenMachine

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 01:49:42 PM »
Apparently the ACLU is taking the Obama Admin to court re. this latest episode...Not sure if anything will come of this as the Patriot act trumps anything from the courts... On a side note, I never knew that Andrew Jackson made the decision to move the Indians east of the Mississippi which was overturned by Supreme Court Justice John Marshal who sided with the Cherokee nation.  Jackson response was "Make him enforce it".  The Indians were moved with no compensation for their land  and this moment in U.S history is known as the "Trail of tears". 
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ace.cafe

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Re: Big Brother...
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 01:52:44 PM »
Apparently the ACLU is taking the Obama Admin to court re. this latest episode...Not sure if anything will come of this as the Patriot act trumps anything from the courts... On a side note, I never knew that Andrew Jackson made the decision to move the Indians east of the Mississippi which was overturned by Supreme Court Justice John Marshal who sided with the Cherokee nation.  Jackson response was "Make him enforce it".  The Indians were moved with no compensation for their land  and this moment in U.S history is known as the "Trail of tears".

I opposed the Patriot Act, and after it passed I have sent emails to my Congressman every year, asking him to introduce a bill to repeal it. I have also requested the abolition of the Department of Homeland Security and the TSA and all their enabling legislations. For many years I have been asking my Congressman to work at repealing the Federal Reserve Act and the IRS too. This recent scandal might be the end of the IRS, if enough people complain about it to their representatives.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:55:38 PM by ace.cafe »