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Author Topic: c5 not runing well  (Read 1945 times)

motorat

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c5 not runing well
« on: December 10, 2012, 08:59:09 PM »
so this started a couple weeks ago.
the bike will run fine if i am accelerating but when i roll off the throttle it feels like it wants to die and coughs and i get what feels like a carb backfire.
since then i have taken off the uni and re-installed the original air box and filter.
it is running a little better but still feels like it is down on power, and i get the occasional cough.

side stand switch has been de-activated,
i am running a bp6res.

in reading some older posts  someone had similar symptoms and it turned out to be the negative lead to the coil had frayed.
so...to get to this coil i think i have to take off the tank, correct?
so how fragile are the fuel connectors?
Joe
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2012, 09:13:15 PM »
As with many other running problems lately, it might be water in your gas.  It's worth getting some gas de-icer and adding it.  Remember, most bottles are meant for a full10-20 gallon tank, not a 4 gallon like we have.  Use only what you need.

You will need to pull the tank to get to the coil.  The fuel connection is not that delicate.  Undo the clamp and gently twist the fuel line back and forth until it breaks free, then slide it off.  There will be a little fuel that spills out but not much.  A 1/4" or 5/16" vacuum cap is nice to put over the exposed fuel outlet.  Now is the time to be careful, don't smack the outlet against anything or it can snap.  Also, put a heavy towel over the front of the tank to protect the paint when you lift it off.  It tends to bonk into the nacelle as it comes up.  You don't usually need to remove the seat to get it off but you can.

Scott

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2012, 09:31:28 PM »
i put some sea foam in it.
that helped, also i tend to let the bike sit for several days, it lives in an unheated garage.
i could be the water issue as it gets to the low 30's where i live.
it really feels like i am running out of gas when it's acting up.
Joe
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 09:32:59 PM »
That's exactly what water in the gas can feel like.  Most of the water eliminator products are mostly alcohol and very inexpensive.  Quick and easy to try.

Scott

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 09:52:28 PM »
i will keep with the sea foam treatement...thanks
also does throwing a blanket over the tank help?
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 10:35:20 PM »
No, but keep it as full as you can.  The water gets there from two sources: what you get from the pump tanks and condensation.  If you've got a big air space in the tank it expands and contracts more with the temperature changes and pulls in fresh air from outside.  The water vapor in that air condenses when it gets cold and that what gets in the tank.  This is what happens to the filling station tanks during this weather as well.

If you keep it full it doesn't have the space to draw in outside air.  It also helps keep the inside of your tank from rusting too, that is if your factory wasn't kind enough to paint the inside for you :P

Scott
Scott

mattsz

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 11:50:14 PM »
It also helps keep the inside of your tank from rusting too, that is if your factory wasn't kind enough to paint the inside for you :P

Scott

I hope they didn't, based on the way the paint around the neck of my tank beneath the cap is breaking down.  I observed it on the new bikes I looked at last spring at the dealership; the salesman said he never noticed it before.  I also observe it on mine; I'm just careful when filling up and try to avoid rubbing it or knocking bits of the flaking paint into the tank...   :(

Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2012, 12:09:18 AM »
Yeah, I don't know of a good way to strip the inside especially if you don't want errant solvent spills or whatever that might also destroy some of the outside finish.  I also figure that if I did strip the inside it would just start rusting right away.  I have to say that of all the quirks of manufacuturing on the RE the paint inside the tank bugs me most.  Go ahead and paint the welds on my chrome if you must but you couldn't put a cork in the tank before you painted it?  Oh well, no one has reported a paint flake clogged fuel pump.  Yet.

Scott

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 12:57:34 AM »
Scotty - I wasn't sure if your   :P   was "tongue in cheek" or not (sorry!); I see it was...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2012, 01:00:57 AM »
Totally!  But it does bug me.  We're the only ones with problems though since it seems that it's only US fuel that has alcohol in it, and the alcohol is what attacks the paint.  Anyone know if the iron barrel and AVL tanks were painted inside too?

Scott

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2012, 01:17:12 AM »
Scott,
Everything RE has paint sprayed down the filler. If you look at assembly line photos, it looks like tanks are hung by one of the frame mounting holes and sprayed all around by hand. Every once in a while I will stick a clean rag just inside the neck and clean off a few loose flakes to try and reduce what drops in.

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It's a Jeep thing......

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 07:26:45 PM »
so i have put heet in the tank to try to chase out the water. the bike is better but still not like it was.
what i don't understand is that i have a suzuki dl650 that is parked next to the re. i go to the same gas stations and it has never had the water in gas feel that the re has had for the last 6 weeks. while it was raining last 2 weeks the suzuki was not started and sat there with a half full tank and when i rode it yesterday there were no problems.
it is anoying that a new bike with 4800 miles does not run as well as a 5 year old bike with 38000 miles on it.
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »
When the tanks at the station are filled it can stir up water that's nicely minding it's own business at the bottom.  If you happened to fill up right after a delivery that could be the problem.

At this point I'd say you should completely drain the tank and start over.  Get rid of "bad gas" as a possibility.

Scott

GlennF

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 10:32:06 PM »
If you are running ethanol fuel the other big issue is "phase separation". Ethanol fuels do not store well and will within a few weeks of storage can separate into petrol, alcohol and water layers in the tank.

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 10:53:14 PM »
and that was part of my point.
how is it that the enfield gets the water when the suzuki does not.
the suzuki sat for about 3 weeks with no problems when riden where as the enfield will sit for 5 to 7 days and develop the water in gas symptoms.

out here in California the gas is crap. i usually use 76 brand that says no mtbe.
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 01:14:12 AM »
Maybe it just proves the Royal Enfield has heart and soul while the Suzuki is a inanimate hunk of metal,plastic and rubber?

If not ridden regularly, Royal Enfields can sulk and be moody.
Jim
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motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 02:43:20 AM »
i like you humor...
i'll be riding my souless pile of plastic and drain and pull the tank on my moody little girl.
maybe freasher gas and a check of all the wires will make her feel more wanted. i have to watch the tone of my throttle hand when i am around her.
Joe
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Gypsyjon

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 02:44:18 AM »
Maybe it just proves the Royal Enfield has heart and soul while the Suzuki is a inanimate hunk of metal,plastic and rubber?

If not ridden regularly, Royal Enfields can sulk and be moody.

I love it!! Will fire mine up tomorrow after work.
I've gone back to my roots. British 1 lunger, stump puller.

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2013, 12:58:13 AM »
update on the 2012 c5.
so far i have eliminated the side stand switch.
today i have drained all the gas out of the tank.
replaced the sparkplug with a new-properly gapped ngk bp6res.
checked the coil and wires leading to it.
put in fresh gas.....the gas i removed went into the lawn tractor and it ran fine with it.
i still have the feeling like i am running out of gas.
 when trying to maintain a steady speed i get kind of a hesitation and a surging. sometimes i even get a back fire on acceleration.


any ideas.
it is not water in the gas.
Joe
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mattsz

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 01:09:37 AM »
i still have the feeling like i am running out of gas.
 when trying to maintain a steady speed i get kind of a hesitation and a surging. sometimes i even get a back fire on acceleration.

Motorat-

This is sounding rather like my problem, and I looked through this thread and didn't find mentions, so...

Sorry if it's obvious - my bike behaved like it was running out of gas, basically like you described (no backfires, but what the heck) - turns out it was a broken negative battery cable terminal end.  The shrink-wrap was holding it together, sort of - just enough to make it look ok, and just enough to maintain continuity, most of the time.  In the end, it stopped altogether but I knew right where to look, thanks to this forum.  Might be worth a check if you haven't already...

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 01:35:46 AM »
thanks...i replaced the battery with an agm.
i looked at the terminals but not that close i still have the original terminals and thought i should change them but have not done that yet.
 i will check them tomorrow
Joe
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Arizoni

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 03:50:16 AM »
While your checking your batterys wires, check the area where the negative ground wire hooks onto the frame.
Any corrosion or looseness there can cause problems.
Jim
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mattsz

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 10:30:11 AM »
Mine looked perfectly normal, and felt just a little bit strange (i.e. soft at the broken spot).  It wasn't until I cut the heat-shrink tubing off that it fell into two pieces in my hands.  And when I properly re-attached the cable to my battery... problem solved.

It's worth a look - not necessarily by cutting it apart, but at least by removing it from the battery and checking its continuity while you look for flexing and/or give it a pull or push...

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2013, 03:25:55 PM »
i checked the battery terminals last night and all were ok.
the negative goes from the negative terminal to an allen on the starter.

"While your checking your batterys wires, check the area where the negative ground wire hooks onto the frame."
where is this location?

i did a continuity test on the 8(large black) guage wire and it checked out.
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2013, 11:10:00 PM »
as a toyota mechanic, our manuals like us to use the simulation method,i.e. start yanking and twisting suspect wiring.even works sometimes!
killing bugs since 1972 2011 g5 deluxe

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2013, 11:38:14 PM »
That would be my suspicion too, borderline wire somewhere.  That or borderline crank position sensor.  Those will mess with steady RPM operation of the engine.

Scott

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2013, 11:48:56 PM »
so am i at the point where i need to take it to the shop??

i'll check more wires tonight.

i was thinking about when this all started and it was after a very rainy ride home on halloween.
Joe
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2013, 11:50:18 PM »
Wiggle some wires, but yes.  I'd say doubly so if it's still under warranty.  Get it sorted before the nice spring weather gets here ;)

Scott

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 01:46:16 PM »
Wow what a coincedence, must be those negative battery connectors. I had the same issue; surging and missing when not under load. Went through a lengthy process of elimination to no avail. Taking the battery out the other day guess what only the shring wrap was keeping the right angle section of the negative conector together. Got a new lead and all is well.

motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2013, 03:23:25 PM »
i went about checking wires last night and didn't find anything glaring.

also i couldn't find where the negative lead is connected to the frame....does anyone know where this is??

i am an expert at taking off the seat now!
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2013, 06:05:02 PM »
Has the bikes problem worsen'd? Initially, you had a problem only on decel. You have a surge or low gas symptom on steady speed now.
The only issues we've seen, and you have checked most of these,

Sidestand switch: symptom,  abrupt engine stall and bucking.

Broken cable end: symptom,  abrupt engine stall and bucking.

Clogged injector: symptom, major out of gas loss of power. NOT abrupt engine stall (like electrical cut out) low power, popping,  low speed, engine will correct itself for a while, repeats.
No amount of cleaner will correct an injector when it reaches this stage. IF it is an injector, only replacment will fix it.
No one can for sure fix your bike online. As you've seen, you get a shotgun approach. Previous history can help tho. Make an appointment with a dealer and get it looked at. Nice weather is on the way.


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motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 06:27:54 PM »
thanks Al.
i have disabled the side stand switch.
it is more constant now.
notable loss of power:
i have to give it more gas to get going and notable when going up hills. the bike doesn't feel too bad on acceleration but the constant acceleration has affected the gas mileage.
while coasting down hills it feels like it want to die, and back fires...but i thought that was more due to the d&d exhaust. i have since put the intake back to stock removing the uni filter.
i get surging when riding at a constant speed. and a feeling like a fuel filter is clogged or it's running out gas.
i bought the bike from fresno and the fuel injector was changed before i got it.
do they go bad that often? it's only been 4700 miles.
since the monroe dropped re,scuteria west is not set up yet...i called them yesterday.
so that leaves me fremont or the journey out to see you in fresno.

does this sound like a clogged injector?
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2013, 08:15:08 PM »
Truthfully, i didnt put two and two together that your bike already had an injector replaced.
Wherever you take it, you should have the service manager call Ron at the mother ship before the bike is seen to discuss the symptom and the prior injector. It is possible the tank does have paint coming off fouling the injector. I say possible because I haven't seen the bike and cant speak for Ron, nor can I diagnose or have access to a crystal ball.
In the two years we've sold the bikes, and with a very good quantity, we've only replaced the 1 injector. So its not a pattern failure nor an epidemic. There are many bikes with many more miles than yours that haven't needed an injector.
I'll talk to Steve our service manager about it and get back to you today. I don't mind discussing this here as transparency both good and bad benefits everyone.   
al
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motorat

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2013, 08:23:37 PM »
thanks.
Joe
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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2013, 09:23:30 PM »
Joe call me when you get a second. Ill be here til 6.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: c5 not runing well
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2013, 09:40:40 PM »
Way to step up Al :)