2014 cafe' racer

[motorat]

did you all see this??
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2012/12/royal-enfield-unveils-2014-cafe-racer/

[Ducati Scotty]

Saw that, was the link from this board?  Nice presentation.  They said they'll be in the US in July or August so they'll be a 2014 model technically.  Also confirmed 535 displacement.

I believe the statement to be sincere BUT things can happen.  I wouldn't be surprised if delivery date and specifics change.  It's just the nature of business.  Regardless, I'll be poking my nose in and asking questions at the dealer in spring time.

Scott

[Royalista]

Oh yeah, the excitement in the speaker's voice is catching. That's always cool.
But Royal Enfield succumbing to the café racer hype? Really?

Honestly I appreciate individuals investing their ingenuity, skill and creativity in pushing a bike to its limits. I even like the café racer show, although I took offense to their contemptuous comments on the Classic.
Likewise, in the comments to the presentation there is plenty of prejudice against Enfields. In the light of this I'm uncomfortable with the presentation of a bike in a segment it cannot possibly compete. How about focusing on the strong points?
Didn't Bullets dominate the enduro races? Conditions in which a motorcycle must prove its full potential, hard core riding, for days in a row? Just asking, and if one seeks the fighter pilot's sensation try dashing through trees in a wood at bulletspeed. That'll make your mojo ticking.

I admit, I'm not the c.r. type, forgive me.
but when and where I go, I ride.

[ace.cafe]

It looks good on the stand, and I liked the announcement that there would be aluminum fender and tank options, along with handlebar and seat options. That was good news.

Regarding the 36 hp figure, we'll wait and see.
Being that I have seen and flow-bench tested the UCE head, and know what is in there, I can say that it will need more than a 3mm overbore and a "throttle body and exhaust", to get there.
However, it could be quite lively and fun with a bit more power from that kind of upgrade, and I would consider any power upgrade a step in the right direction for them.

A Harris frame should be a good frame. That's a nice addition.

Overall, this bike was a long time in coming, and I'm glad to see something like this finally being produced. It was a natural progression to have it.

[barenekd]

The cafe racer was at the Long Beach IMS Show and will be at the Seattle show this weekend.
Bare

[gremlin]

......................Regarding the 36 hp figure, we'll wait and see.
Being that I have seen and flow-bench tested the UCE head, and know what is in there, I can say that it will need more than a 3mm overbore and a "throttle body and exhaust", to get there..........

The cam profiles are key to ANY real performance enhancement.   Anyone who thinks a larger piston & some port polishing is enough is using a "big hammer" kinda approach.

I'd like to see the mod be a 535 piston & new cams (with requisite injector & exhaust work).

[ace.cafe]

The cam profiles are key to ANY real performance enhancement.   Anyone who thinks a larger piston & some port polishing is enough is using a "big hammer" kinda approach.

I'd like to see the mod be a 535 piston & new cams (with requisite injector & exhaust work).

The stock cams are very short lift. Right at .300" lift for the intake valve, flowing a peak 135.9 cfm @ 28" water column depression on the flow bench.
The flow bench says that there is only 5 cfm more flow available if you lift it to about .350", but it poops out above that. So, the stock port might work out okay with another .050" lift, but it's a small gain. 141 cfm at .350" lift. However, some IS better than none, so it's something.

It really needs some flow work to utilize the higher lift cams best. It would work out best to have both.

[gremlin]

::opinion mode ON ::

recalling my days building JeeP engines ....

seems to me, high-lift, short duration cams with a relatively small angle between the peaks is a formula for a high-torque, low RPM engine.

The higer performing engines had a larger angle between lobes, and, a longer duration .....  scavenging and all that ....

::opinion mode off::

I respect the time it takes to design a street-able modification kit that will be both economical and worthy of the investment to mass-produce.  Ace has taken on a monumental task here !!!!

[ace.cafe]

::opinion mode ON ::

recalling my days building JeeP engines ....

seems to me, high-lift, short duration cams with a relatively small angle between the peaks is a formula for a high-torque, low RPM engine.

The higer performing engines had a larger angle between lobes, and, a longer duration .....  scavenging and all that ....

::opinion mode off::

I respect the time it takes to design a street-able modification kit that will be both economical and worthy of the investment to mass-produce.  Ace has taken on a monumental task here !!!!

Yes, generally speaking, your formula is correct.

And thanks for your supportive comments!
I need it!

[Ducati Scotty]

Ace, was the development of the original Fireball more or less straightforward than the UCE?

And very glad to hear that progress is being made.

Scott

[Arizoni]

Maybe I'm all wet but it seems to me that perhaps a slight increase in the valve lift coupled with changing both cams to increase the dwell and overlap condition could increase the flow at higher speeds.
If this were coupled with some exhaust and inlet tuning to take advantage of the overlap a improvement in the upper RPM range might be possible.

Of course this would require a revision of the ECU to accommodate the higher RPM and the lower would probably need modifying to keep it all together.

Just thinking...

[ace.cafe]

Ace, was the development of the original Fireball more or less straightforward than the UCE?

And very glad to hear that progress is being made.

Scott

Hi Scott,
The Fireball was very slow getting underway also. It actually took a year for me to get my first prototype head out of Mondello. There were some hurdles to overcome, mostly in the re-engineered valve train, which took some time and effort to resolve.
I would say that the Fireball was overall a more difficult job, because we hadn't paved any of the way with a previous effort.  Because of my experience with the Fireball, I have a better handle on where this UCE project has to go, and some of the techniques we pioneered on the Fireball can be used on the UCE.  I plan to use the same valve gear that the Fireball has on it, with the beehive springs and such, on the UCE too. It's too good to not use it.

There are a lot of similarities between these two engines, but also some divergences.
For instance, the intake port size is about the same on both. The UCE has a slightly smaller set of valves, and the semi-bathtub chamber, which impede flow a bit in comparison to the larger valved hemi-head of the Fireball.
Interestingly, both the UCE and the Iron Barrel show the same flow problem in the intake port, and so we can use the same techniques to solve it. But the exhaust port in the Iron Barrel was too big, so we crutched it with some flow techniques and a shorter lift on the exhaust cam, and got our flow ratio fixed up that way. The UCE has a smaller exhaust port, and that allows us to have some room for shaping, and we should get a better result of the exhaust port in the UCE.

The biggest difference is that on the Fireball we had complete freedom in the intake for whatever carburetor we wanted, and could jet any way that worked best, very easily. And we had a fully adjustable ignition system which, while a bit crude, allowed us to adjust it any way we wanted it, very easily. So, that took a lot of pressure off, because we didn't have "black boxes" to try to deal with, that do things on their own that we might not want.

The Iron Barrel flat tappets had essentially no limitations for us. They are very applicable to a performance package just as they are. On the other hand, the UCE hydraulic tappets have issues with higher revving, which can be overcome, but it's another fly in the ointment to deal with. The rollers are nice, but they are very heavy, and the roller tappets require different kinds of cam profiles, so we can't just use our Iron Barrel cams in the UCE. Most of this stuff that is designed to be a convenience on a road bike, are an impediment to a performance machine.

In terms of flow, the Fireball flows about 195 cfm at .350" lift in the intake. Right now we are only at 165 cfm at .400" lift on the UCE head. Clearly we have some further improvements to make, and we know what to do. The two-edged sword is that the more we make this baby flow, the further we get from the stock EFI map, and the more important the new ECU or re-map becomes.

So, we have a set of "goods and bads". Not anything that can't be overcome, but some things that are sort of a pain in the ass. But, we'll get there in the end.

[ace.cafe]

Maybe I'm all wet but it seems to me that perhaps a slight increase in the valve lift coupled with changing both cams to increase the dwell and overlap condition could increase the flow at higher speeds.
If this were coupled with some exhaust and inlet tuning to take advantage of the overlap a improvement in the upper RPM range might be possible.

Of course this would require a revision of the ECU to accommodate the higher RPM and the lower would probably need modifying to keep it all together.

Just thinking...

Hi Jim,
The current cams in the UCE have very short overlap period, which is responsible in large part for the high torque curve in the lower rpm range. It also impedes the higher rpms, which is probably why we see the power nose-over around 4750 rpm on the stock bikes.
I think they had to do this to limit the port cross-talk around TDC that is prevalent in these combustion chamber shapes, so as to satisfy emission standards.
The intake valve closing timing is not too much different than the Iron Barrel, but it is a little later. Not as late as the Fireball.

We have a very highly respected cam grinder who has over 50 years experience with performance cams that has consented to work on this cam design, and he has the equipment to grind, so it looks good for that. However this auto-decompressor that's in the exhaust cam means that there is some extra complexity in the system, and we may have to use the existing cams with a regrind that can work within the available lobe size and shape on a slightly smaller base circle, so that we can retain the auto-decompressor. I don't want to compromise that auto-decompressor system, because I don't want to be responsible for broken sprags in the electric starter.
The other alternative will be to use some ratio in the rockers, and we are definitely looking at that. We're getting into that with the Iron Barrel now too.

To get into higher rpms than 5500 rpm means that we have to deal with the rev-limiter, and get it out of the way. Our Ace valve spring system can handle the higher rpms if we decide to go there, and that will probably alleviate any lifter pump-up issues at the higher rpms.
It's questionable if the owners really want to rev higher, or if a good solid power curve up to 5500 rpm would suit them for most purposes.

[Land Surveyor]

Hello all! Been away a long time but news of this bike brought me back. Although they look good, neither myself nor my back have any interest in riding cafe-style.  I am, however, interested in the up-rated engine and the newer frame and suspension.  I note that a better seat is available but would want standard-height bars.  Anybody know if those will be available?

[Royalista]

It's questionable if the owners really want to rev higher, or if a good solid power curve up to 5500 rpm would suit them for most purposes.

Indeed. Higher revs is more vibration means more wear & tear, loss of bolts and stuff csq. more prevention & maintenance and less riding.
Every time I tested for the maxspeed (132kpu and 122kpu average on stretches of under 20kms) mother physics presented me the bill: taxplate holder falling off because of all three welds failing being the more amusing adventurette as it happened on a busy crossing.
In the longer run I associate high vibrations with decreased life expectancy.
Are those also issues that have your interest or are they factored in in an inherent trade off (more speed vs less life)?

Let there be no misunderstanding: I follow with interest what you're doing and appreciate your method and efforts. It's not because it ain't my cup o'tea I can't be supportive. Although I would appreciate it if there was someone out there, just like you, working with the same gusto on the adventure qualities of the bullet.

[ace.cafe]

Indeed. Higher revs is more vibration means more wear & tear, loss of bolts and stuff csq. more prevention & maintenance and less riding.
Every time I tested for the maxspeed (132kpu and 122kpu average on stretches of under 20kms) mother physics presented me the bill: taxplate holder falling off because of all three welds failing being the more amusing adventurette as it happened on a busy crossing.
In the longer run I associate high vibrations with decreased life expectancy.
Are those also issues that have your interest or are they factored in in an inherent trade off (more speed vs less life)?

Let there be no misunderstanding: I follow with interest what you're doing and appreciate your method and efforts. It's not because it ain't my cup o'tea I can't be supportive. Although I would appreciate it if there was someone out there, just like you, working with the same gusto on the adventure qualities of the bullet.

Well, one of the things that we found out about the vibrations is that it varies from one bike to the next. It comes from how well the factory built the crank. On the Iron Barrel Bullet, we found that some were okay, and some were not. They all benefited from having the crank really true, and the vibrations almost completely went away.
On the UCE, as with the AVL also, the cranks are built first, and then the end shafts are ground to be "concentric". It appears that this also has its variances, and some UCE and AVL bikes vibrate more than others do. These cranks are not available as separate parts anymore, but must be purchased as complete units.

A rev limit of 6000 rpm or perhaps a touch higher would be all that the stroke length would permit for street bike purposes anyway, because of piston speeds. But for those people who want to do The Ton, it would help to have those extra 500 rpm.

[sparklow]

Vibrations vary from one bike to the next, got to agree. My 2011 RE B5 doesn't seem to me to vibrate excessively, but my standard of comparison is a 1978 Triumph Bonneville. The Triumph has a reputation as a rattle you fillings loose vibrator but they aren't all the same. Mine is not bad at all (and I've owned it for a decade so maybe I'm just used to it), although I have ridden other that had big time shakes. The factory crank balance is certainly the critical factor and I think I just got lucky with my Bonneville. Interesting to hear that the UCE RE is a similar situation, I'll have to ride another late model RE and compare vibes!

[Tri750]

Hello all! Been away a long time but news of this bike brought me back. Although they look good, neither myself nor my back have any interest in riding cafe-style.  I am, however, interested in the up-rated engine and the newer frame and suspension.  I note that a better seat is available but would want standard-height bars.  Anybody know if those will be available?

The optional seat is only better if you have a passenger. There is a solo cafe and a duo cafe seat. The two handlebars mentioned are the ones on the bike, and clubman, meaning lower still.
To convert a Cafe to a standard you would need your own seat, handlebar mount or top triple tree, non-rearset pegs, longer cables, brake line and extend the wiring.
Could be done though.

[Ducati Scotty]

Those pegs aren't that far back.  If you just change to standard bars they may be fine, a bit aggressive maybe but fine.

Scott

[barenekd]

The bars are pretty easy to change to anything you want, although it's possible you made need to change cables to the standard UCE model.
The seat may be a bit more of a problem, but you can always refoam and recover the stock pan.
Or you can use your standard UCE and get the cams, piston, barrel and head for the Cafe Racer.
Bare

[Ducati Scotty]

Is it the same crank/con rod in the 535?

Scott

[barenekd]

Is it the same crank/con rod in the 535?

Cain't rightly answer that one! The stroke is the same, don't know about the rest.
Bare

[ace.cafe]

Is it the same crank/con rod in the 535?

Scott

No public spec has been released on the crank as far as I know, but I'd say it's essentially a sure bet that the cranks and rods are the same.

The UCE and AVL both have a steel rod and roller big end, so theoretically it should be sturdy enough.

[Ducati Scotty]

I would think so too, just wondering if anyone had heard from a reliable source.

Then again, until I see a Cafe Racer for sale on the showroom floor I view all this info as 'subject to change', including everything about the 535 motor.

Scott

[gremlin]

..........you can use your standard UCE and get the cams, piston, barrel and head for the Cafe Racer........

Things that make you go HMMMMMM ......

[Ducati Scotty]

And ECU and fuel injector.

[Tri750]

Well, I've had my order in for one since the prototype was unveiled with the Ohlins shocks. I've requested one of the first California models that can be squirreled my way.
Plan is to zoom over to Corbin in Hollister for a one-off gunfighter tall seat so I can actually ride it, the zoomy exhaust, and I plan on having a number of the silver painted bits polished. Patience....patience...

[GlennF]

The bars are pretty easy to change to anything you want, although it's possible you made need to change cables to the standard UCE model.
The seat may be a bit more of a problem, but you can always refoam and recover the stock pan.
Or you can use your standard UCE and get the cams, piston, barrel and head for the Cafe Racer.
Bare

Standard UCE does not gain the rear disk brake. If your feeling particularly perverse you could use bits from a 2013 domestic market Thunderbird ...

[wildbill]

is the gear changer still on the left hand side

[ace.cafe]

is the gear changer still on the left hand side

Yes, the silly rules are still in effect.
All gear changers must be on the left, as per bureaucratic decree.

[Tri750]

is the gear changer still on the left hand side

Been a while, turn signals became mandatory in 1971 or so, left hand shift mandatory in '75-'76. I think it's been long enough to forgive the lawmakers and move on, but that's just me.
I've had 20 some Brit bikes over the years, right shift, left shift, and my '71 Norton Commando was right side shift, AND up for first gear. Imagine having a garage with a Japanese bike, that Norton, right shift Triumphs, and 1 left shift Triumph. Kept me alert!

[Bill Harris]

Check this out.

http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/motorcycles/the-2013-royal-enfield-cafe-racer-535-could-output-36-bhp-65433/

Royal Enfield people are good people.

Cheers,
Bill

[wildbill]

I read some where on the forum the usa price for the cafe racer is around the $7300 mark. I'd class that as an out right bargain.
I'm pretty sure when that bike arrives here in oz ( I've already placed my order for one) and seeing the classic chrome sells for $9500 on the road - there won't be much change out of $12k  for the cafe racer.
Will be interesting to see how far I am off. You might think impossible but I know quite a bit about cars and sale.
for example your top of the line twin turbo bmw z4is a  bit over $50 k your way - here the same car $120k
Same with the porsche boxster and the mustangs.
the 2012 shelby gt500 sell here between $200k and $265k - and another for $420k now that's a laugh!
In fact everthing and anything the gov and the dealers can get their hands on that moves to make a handsome profit
so i've been told near xmas next year for first delivery so it's now just wait and see.
so a happy/merry xmas to all, have a great festive experience and bring on 2013

[saint45]

@ROYALISTA....
Of ALL the manufacturers I think RE Is right on with getting into the cafe racer THANG. They should be at the fore front. There are sooo many bandwagoners i.e. Guzzi, triumph, that dont have the soul their old bikes used to have. Riding a triumph now is kind of like riding a honda. AND they are assembled in  Thailand(retro models) and still cost a fortune.
Only think I see RE blowing it on is the price. Everythings just gettin too high.
Thats my 2 cents.

[Ducati Scotty]

Agreed!  RE seems to be the only bike with real retro feel, not just the look.  For those that want the look, so be it.  I'm no snob and I can appreciate a retro look with thoroughly modern mechanicals, it's still cool.

I agree on the price.  REs are a touch pricey for what they are mechanically.  You're paying a bit for the soul and feel of the bike and there are only so many customers looking for that combination. 

I would say the cafe has the looks to score a higher price, but it's pushing farther into the zone where there are many other bikes that can be had for the same price or less.  They don't have the looks and soul but if it's the same price you're still competing.  I hope the new bike really does put out 36hp.  That and the fact that it really does look 100% retro with no modernized bits will help even the playing field a bit.

Scott

[saint45]

Thx Scotty, I thought from the get go if they priced this thing at even as high as 6995.00 They would have a home run.

[rep_movsd]

The rollers on the UCE crank run directly on the crank pin. The crank pin seems to have some sort of surface hardening.
From experience we've seen that if the crank pin is starved of oil (driving off too soon, too hard in cold weather), once a slightest amount of wear happens on the surface, the pin goes for a toss very soon.

One hopes they do something about that crank before they throw another 9 HP at it in the cafe racer. If it really makes 36 HP at the crank, then perhaps we should expect about 30 at the wheel.

For me the exciting thing is to be able to cannibalize all the parts and adapt it to my cast iron bullet. Best of both worlds.

[ace.cafe]

I think everyone is depending on RE to make it properly.  It's an expectation.

I am just waiting for the release and subsequent tests, because I really have no way to know if they are able to hit their claimed performance criteria, or not.
From past history, I'd be more inclined to say "not", but this is a new model, and we don't know what it's going to do yet.

Just from a manufacturing perspective, I'd suspect it to be a "bolt-on" kit, which does not include crank mods.
The compression ratio is already as high as most available street fuels will allow, so I doubt that will be changed. The 535cc big-bore kit we already know will be on it. Easy to install on the production line.
Cams have been rumored, and that would be a distinct possibility with an easy installation on the production line. If they are going to have 36hp, then they are going to have cams in it.
The exhaust system will play a big part, and we have already seen that they have done something with that. We don't know what's inside it, but we can see that it's different. That should be good for a couple of ponies right there, as we have seen with the aftermarket UCE exhaust systems.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Royalista]

@ROYALISTA....
Of ALL the manufacturers I think RE Is right on with getting into the cafe racer THANG. They should be at the fore front. There are sooo many bandwagoners i.e. Guzzi, triumph, that dont have the soul their old bikes used to have. Riding a triumph now is kind of like riding a honda. AND they are assembled in  Thailand(retro models) and still cost a fortune.
Only think I see RE blowing it on is the price. Everythings just gettin too high.
Thats my 2 cents.

You speak from a moral vantagepoint and it is. Then again Royal Enfield already has the moral high ground, and the only to be in that position. It's gotta remain there.

I've always viewed a cafe racer as a personal thing (wrongfully?). A one man's struggle to accomplish a goal, well knowing there will be sacrifices but gratification too.

I have a friend who, when introduced to my humble Electra, promptly traded his Suzuki for a... Bonneville (with digital instruments, for crying out loud ). He fell for the look but didn't want to give up on highways. So he rides his bonny as the suze: summer and highways only. To me he misses out on the heart of motorcycling, but the cafe racer might well be in his alley.

Summarizing: there is potential out there and a company that can deliver something authentic; when on moral high ground one is vulnerable, especially when speed is not one's forte.

When mounting current aftermarket racer kits one has the benefit of having two bikes. The price of the new cafe racer should be competitive with that.

[Ducati Scotty]

The true cafe racer is an individual's creation, but let's not forget what they were: an attempt to copy the speedy aspects of the race bikes of the day.  In that vein I see no problem with creating a production line bike that replicates that look and feel.  There's the V7 from Guzzi too.  Now technically it's not a cafe because it wasn't built in a shed by one person.  But if I had to describe it to someone who hadn't seen it I'd call it a cafe racer, and I think you would too

And remember, the reason to get a UCE is to remember what it was like in the old days (riding) without remembering what it was really like in the old days (wrenching)   I'm ok with the whitewashed and more reliable version of motorcycle history.

Scott

[JVS]

Bit more eye candy   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=892OXRSZRgw

[Royalista]

not to mention the gratifying sensation of riding a motorcycle across its full spectrum.

[boggy]

Not sure if anyone saw this month but Cycle World has given a date and price to the Cafe.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/02/06/royal-enfield-factory-cafe-racer/

The standard 84 x 90mm Single has been bored 3mm to land at 535cc. A hotter cam and larger-bore Keihin EFI throttle body are fitted to suit. “It has about four more horsepower, so output should be around 32,” said Greene. The extra power and taller gearing should result in a top-speed boost over the 79-mph G5 we last tested (November, 2009).

An all-new, double-downtube frame features sportier geometry and a longer swingarm. Italian-made suspension is 
branded Royal Enfield, with a non-adjust-able 38mm fork by Gabriel and twin preload-
and-rebound-adjustable shocks by Paioli. The Brembo front brake setup has a full-floating disc. These changes and new bodywork help the 365-pound-claimed Café Racer achieve a 46-lb. weight loss vs. the standard C5 Classic. Expect the $7295 CR in dealers by August.

[Ducati Scotty]

Saw that.  I was glad to hear the specific details of the cam and full floating front brake.  Neither was something I heard before or could discern from pictures.  Though I do recall hearing 36hp from the Long Beach show, not 32.  Either way, more than the current UCE for sure. 

Scott

[barenekd]

I'm still waitin'! Wish they'd get here!
Bare

[bikesnob]

Hey Bare, can't wait to see you on it !

[Ducati Scotty]

Patience!  And if that fails get a Ninja 250 that you can sell later

[barenekd]

I've seen me on it. Now I want to see me riding it!
As for the little Kwacker, not a bad idea, but if I started looking, I'd probably end up with a 300. I don't wanna go there! I've ridden several of the 250's and I do like them.
Bare

[Ducati Scotty]

Don't get a 300, the depreciation for the time you'll have it is too much.  Get a last gen old style 250.  With the new style 250 and 300 now out they should be cheap as dirt.

Scott

[ace.cafe]

I'm actually quite interested in this Cafe Racer.
If it has some hotter cams in it, and already has a 535 bore kit, and a higher flow throttle body, then our Ace head modification will go real good on it.
It will be a perfect candidate for our head.