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Author Topic: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure  (Read 846 times)

GreenForce82

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Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« on: October 20, 2012, 06:18:45 AM »
Went out tonight to start the bike for a minute and check some things before a ride tomorrow... No start... kept trying. kick kick nothing... okay so I hit decomp and tried the ES just to give it a shot, sometimes this works like a sneak attack.

Also of note is that my sprag is already messed up because I have the intermittent connection with the kickstarter lever and the sometimes she just spins when hitting the ES button condition.

Well now the fun part. The starter is permanently engaged to the engine now and the ES works great... to spin the damn engine over and over and over.... but still no start. and I also must assume no disengage. I assume this is why it wont start, too much resistance from the starter causing the engine not to fire up properly or something.

So here's what I've done so far.

Shift lever removed.
Foot Peg removed.
Primary cover removed and fluid drained.
alternator (right name for coils attached by three nuts? I'm tired) removed and secured with zipties up above rather than messing with wires.
Magnetic stator removed easily and wiped clean set aside.
Primary chain tensioner loosened.

Now what?

The snidal manual doesnt make things clear enough as to whether I can remove the clutch as an assembly or not.

Basically I know some folks have done this a ton of times and I searched the forum a ton, and couldn
t find what I was looking for... also I am just not liking the new format and things just don't look right and it makes it hard for me to find things... again also tired...

I am gonna clean up and shut er down for tonight and hopefully pick up tomorrow morning with a renewed sense of purpose and a bit of help from my friends here. a link to the instructions or another thread that mentions the order of operation would be great. any other tips would also be much appreciated.

Thanks Much!
"Counted his friends in burned-out spark plugs
and prays that he always will.

But he's the last of the blue blood greaser boys all of his mates are doing time:

Married with three kids up by the ring road
sold their souls straight down the line.

The Garbone

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 01:40:28 PM »
Assuming you are removing the sprag and KS motor.

The clutch assembly needs to be taken apart in pieces. The basket pulled at the same time as the engine sprocket since the primary chain has very little flex.

When pulling the inner primary put a wrap or 2 of electrical tape over the countershaft splines as not to damage the rubber spring gasket.

Gary
57' RE Crusader 250
67' Ford Mustang
74' Catalina 27 "Knot a Clew"
95 RE Ace Clubman 535
01 HD 1200 Custom
07 RE 5spd HaCK

* all actions described in this post are fictional *

ace.cafe

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 04:42:02 PM »
Frank,
Just do what Ed The Termite is doing in the other thread in this heading.
He's removing it, but leaving the hump, which is the cheapest way out of this mess.

He had some tough spots on his, but you might not have. Most of them come out easier than Ed's. It's not usually that hard.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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GreenForce82

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 05:22:42 PM »
I did some more reading last night and after looking at the exploded view of the clutch I realized I would have to take the clutch apart to get the whole primary chain and sprocket assembly off. I'll keep at it and hopefully every thing will work out.
"Counted his friends in burned-out spark plugs
and prays that he always will.

But he's the last of the blue blood greaser boys all of his mates are doing time:

Married with three kids up by the ring road
sold their souls straight down the line.

mustangdave

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2012, 01:52:15 AM »
The SPRAG fail happened to me last year....$400 repair at the RE dealership 3 hours away...for me it was all part of sorting out my 05...after cables breaking, replacing clutch & friction plates...and rejetting a carb...bikes finally running REALLY nice...but Ihave a list of winter projects.
I rode Japanese bikes as a kid...then I grew up and got some British Thunder

Vince

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2012, 05:14:24 PM »
     Sounds like a solenoid issue rather than a sprag issue. The solenoid is the magnetic switch in the left tool box that the battery + hooks to. These sometimes stick, causing the starter to run on. If you had to disconnect the battery to stop the problem then this is the likely cause.

AgentX

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2012, 05:25:12 PM »
I did some more reading last night and after looking at the exploded view of the clutch I realized I would have to take the clutch apart to get the whole primary chain and sprocket assembly off. I'll keep at it and hopefully every thing will work out.

Taking the clutch out isn't any more difficult than the work you've already done taking apart the primary.

ROVERMAN

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2012, 07:35:22 PM »
+1 on the solenoid Vince. I have the opposite problem, mine needs a gentle reminder with a hard object on occasion just to wake up(much like myself!).

GreenForce82

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 04:20:52 PM »
Query?
If I do remove the sprag stuff, do I need to replace anything? (read $ buy $ anything?) I am beyond broke right now.
"Counted his friends in burned-out spark plugs
and prays that he always will.

But he's the last of the blue blood greaser boys all of his mates are doing time:

Married with three kids up by the ring road
sold their souls straight down the line.

ace.cafe

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2012, 09:11:54 PM »
Query?
If I do remove the sprag stuff, do I need to replace anything? (read $ buy $ anything?) I am beyond broke right now.

Just gaskets.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

GreenForce82

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 07:40:52 AM »
Okay get ready to get pissed at me, I know I am.... due to a combination of unemployment, depression and winter, among other things, I haven't actually finished the repair aforementioned...

I took off the primary cover and other stuff, and I was able to break the sprag loose and get the bike started and it ran fine. but when I listened it sounded like something 'extra' was spinning. I think that the sprag broke loose but not all the way or, well I actually think it somehow is able to start but it is spinning the starter along with it. So I tried an idea I had and just removed the starter itself from the bike. I know that if the sprag is jacked up its best to get it out of there but I am content with the "less is more" and if it ain't (badly) broke don't fix it" schools of thought.

So here I am February 2013 and I know that I am gonna need my bike to be running acceptably well to get me around this summer, or to be able to sell or trade it so I can get a car...

I know I haven't been active on here in a while but, as I said, depressed as hell. Don't let anyone tell you that depression is bullshit because I just can't get my head outta my ass lately, no matter what I try, and it SUCKS.

So more than anything I just wanted to catch anyone who was following the situation and to ask a few basic questions about corrosion and gear oil.

First question, the bike has been in an unheated garage with the primary off since Oct 20 2012, and I just wondered if the exposure to the elements could have damaged anything, I had been running it full of atf, so everything probably has a decent 'film' of oil on it but it hasn't been saturated. Is this a problem?

And Second, I saved the fluid from the primary and its been in a roasting pan in said garage since said date. Is this going to be reusable or should I just go ahead and use brand new atf in there?

I also am curious as to the clutch and alternator and their state after being exposed to the elements all this time. Do I have anything to worry about there?

The reason I am hoping to do this the easiest way is I had some trouble when I did try to pull the clutch off and now I really need the bike to work for the least investment possible. as it is my only means of transportation.
"Counted his friends in burned-out spark plugs
and prays that he always will.

But he's the last of the blue blood greaser boys all of his mates are doing time:

Married with three kids up by the ring road
sold their souls straight down the line.

REpozer

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 09:44:15 AM »
If your primary didn't take a drink of salt water, I don't think it would be a real problem. Hows it look under the cover? You should get rid of the old ATF. Just a few bucks for new ATF ( I use 15w-40) or what ever you decide.
Fix anything you know needs attention, refill the primary, give it a gentle try.
Sorry your not feeling well. Welcome back.
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ace.cafe

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 11:16:42 AM »
Nothing to really worry about from having the primary off. Even if you get a little surface rust on a shaft, it won't be much at all, and you can just use steel wool to clean it off.
You can pour the old ATF thru a coffee filter in a funnel, and re-use it if you have to.
When you put the inner primary case back on, put a wrap of some kind of tape around the shaft splines to protect the oil seal as you put it on. Even if you didn't do that when you took it off, you might have not damaged the seal on the way off, so you should protect it when you re-assemble.

The primary chain should have about a half-inch of up/down play in the top run when you set the tensioner. Don't make it too tight or you'll wear out the bearings quickly. Half inch play in the upper run is good.

As for the financial situation and depression, things always get better eventually, but they can get worse in the mean time, so you have to pedal as fast as you can!
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

GreenForce82

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Re: Sprag/ Starter failure/ seizure
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 08:09:59 PM »
Thanks! I will be following the advice of taping the splines for sure, but the fluid situation depends on how many of my neighbors decide to pay me for snowblowing their driveways over the last few weeks. I do it for whatever they give me if anything. Most of em are senior citizens and don't need to be out shoveling or paying somebody an arm and a leg to drive over and tear up their driveway with a plow.
"Counted his friends in burned-out spark plugs
and prays that he always will.

But he's the last of the blue blood greaser boys all of his mates are doing time:

Married with three kids up by the ring road
sold their souls straight down the line.