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Author Topic: Need a willing test subject.  (Read 1651 times)

ace.cafe

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Need a willing test subject.
« on: February 02, 2013, 07:27:59 PM »
I think that I'm ready to be able to tackle an AVL head now. I think we can conquer that valve spring issue, and get some good results from this head now. I think it may require getting a new piston done to handle the extra valve lift too.
So, it probably is not going to be a cheap thing, but it will be done right. I would have to estimate the job after we get the head and have a real good look at it, and get it on the flow bench.

I am not going to do AVL bottom ends. They already have the required steel rod and roller big-end , and if anything turns up to be needed down there, it will be the job of the owner to handle any bottom end work.

So, if there is somebody in the US who is willing to go thru the process, which may take some time, to be the first AVL owner to get an Ace modified top end, please say so. It needs to be someone who is capable enough to do the mechanic work, and take some precision measurements(digital caliper) of things on the engine for me, under my instructions, and then putting it back together when I'm done, and doing some testing and sorting and jetting.
Then, after that one, we can offer it to others, built on the same pattern.

I think that recently I have figured out the key to getting what is needed out of these heads, and I'd like to try it.

This is assuming that there's actually some interest in something like this in the AVL community.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 07:58:49 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Adrian

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 11:24:35 PM »
Well it's about time!  ;D

You could borrow my project 500 AVL head, it's still sitting on the bench after being drilled and tapped for an iron engine decompressor. Bullet Whisperer has even fitted some comp valve springs, only trouble is, it's on the wrong side of the Pond for you guys! Plus it has already been ported, possibly rather differently to what you might have been planning.  :-\

The head is a lovely design, and with all BW's work on cam selection and compression hikes already giving good results with a stock head casting, the thought of a Mandello-quality AVL head is very tempting.  The quality of the stock port work, particularly where the valve seats are fitted, will NOT make your day...

I'd also be intrigued to know what cams and carb you're planning to use if it's not a trade secret!

Regards,

Adrian

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 12:07:04 AM »
Well it's about time!  ;D

You could borrow my project 500 AVL head, it's still sitting on the bench after being drilled and tapped for an iron engine decompressor. Bullet Whisperer has even fitted some comp valve springs, only trouble is, it's on the wrong side of the Pond for you guys! Plus it has already been ported, possibly rather differently to what you might have been planning.  :-\

The head is a lovely design, and with all BW's work on cam selection and compression hikes already giving good results with a stock head casting, the thought of a Mandello-quality AVL head is very tempting.  The quality of the stock port work, particularly where the valve seats are fitted, will NOT make your day...

I'd also be intrigued to know what cams and carb you're planning to use if it's not a trade secret!

Regards,

Adrian

Hi Adrian,
Yes, we'd like to have a fresh unmodded head to work on, so that we can have a baseline for doing other ones.
The things we'd like to do revolve around getting the valve open further, and controlling the valve spring oscillations, which I am betting can be done with our Ace valve gear. I have some high-ratio roller rocker arm work being done on a Hitchcock's Iron Barrel Big Head which has that similar type of rocker boxes and rocker shafts in it. It's not complete yet, but it should be done soon, and I could do a similar thing in the rocker boxes of the AVL.

That would give us the valve lift,  which is so desperately needed with that shape combustion chamber. And it would get us around the cam problem, and I expect that our beehive spring kit with lightweight titanium retainers would overcome the valve spring issues that prevented higher revving. We could use the "S" cams if desired, or the stock AVL cams, or whatever cams we wanted to put in there. With the ratio rockers providing the lift multiplier, that can turn our .300" lift cams into .450" lift cams, or whatever ratio we pick.

Also, we have recently worked on a new porting job which is larger, and has an inlet port shape that is somewhat reminiscent of the stock AVL port shape, and has some very good port speed, using some specialty techniques. We may be able to apply these techniques to the AVL port, and I'm interested in getting an AVL head on the flow bench to see just what we could do with it.

I feel quite sure now that if we can get our valve gear into this head, and put some ratio in the rockers for increasing lift, and get any reasonable improvement in the port and valve seat area, we can get a good gain out of this head.
I'm confident enough about it now, to seek a "guinea pig" to give it a go.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

boggy

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 09:34:27 PM »
Man, I would positively love to help out with this but my current place with no garage makes this impossible.  I store my Bullet 35 miles away in the Winter.  I'd consider shipping you my bike from the Boston area but the costs of that, and the prototyping costs would probably add up fast.

Funny, I was just talking to a friend about acquiring an Iron Barrel Bullet + doing up a Fireball build when I finally move to a new place with a garage (hopefully this Summer).  VERY interested to see what you do with the AVL, Ace!
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 10:06:55 PM »
Well, if you get in the mood to pull the head off that AVL, that's where we need to start. It will take some time.

If you decide to do that, bring the piston up to TDC, I will need for you to take some measurements with a digital caliper.

I don't know if there is much interest from people for this, but we do everything custom anyway, so doing one is really no different for us. And once we get the process laid-out on the first one, the rest just follow suit.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:09:23 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

REpozer

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 11:23:46 PM »
Ace its been a long time since I got excited on this forum. What an incredible temptation.

My AVL is stock and runs well. Riding season is is coming up.

You got me thinking........

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bobscogin

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 04:51:11 AM »
Tom, where is your shop located?

Bob

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2013, 01:43:15 PM »
Hi Bob,
I'm located in Southeast Tennessee, but I don't actually have a shop.
All the machine work is done at Mondello's shop, which is near me.
We typically work by mail order, and the customer installs the parts, with my instructions.

However, Chumma has a place in NJ where he does engine work and full bike builds in his garage.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

bobscogin

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2013, 02:27:50 PM »
Tom, I have a 2009 AVL Classic with about 1500 miles on it. Our daughter and her family live in Huntsville, AL and we visit there fairly often. Not committing to offer my bike as a guinea pig just yet, but if I did would you prefer having the complete engine, or complete bike? Wouldn't be practical to ship, of course, but I could bring it up on a trip to Huntsville and get it to you.

Bob

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2013, 04:27:59 PM »
Bob,
The engine would be all I'd need.
I could do everything necessary with just that.
I don't even need the gearbox or the primary chaincase.

That would work out fine for me, if you want to drop it off.
It will take a number of months to get it all done.
I'm not sure what the cost of it would be yet, because I'd need to work it out as we go along.
And I'll also need you to be able to work on some re-tuning after it's done and back in the bike.

Tom
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

bobscogin

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2013, 06:10:10 PM »
Tom, let me think it over. At 64 years of age and almost 50 years of tinkering with bikes, I've become a pretty good wrench and could certainly participate in final tuning. All that said, cost would be a factor, and the timing couldn't be worse. Spring is poppin' here in Southeast Louisiana and it would be tough to rip the heart out of the Bullet and miss the best part of the riding season!

Bob

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2013, 06:39:00 PM »
Tom, let me think it over. At 64 years of age and almost 50 years of tinkering with bikes, I've become a pretty good wrench and could certainly participate in final tuning. All that said, cost would be a factor, and the timing couldn't be worse. Spring is poppin' here in Southeast Louisiana and it would be tough to rip the heart out of the Bullet and miss the best part of the riding season!

Bob

Hi Bob,
I appreciate that you considered the possibility, and the possibility is still open for you or anybody to give it a shot.
At some point, I suspect that somebody is going to want to do it, so I thought I'd get the idea out on the table.

Thanks,
Tom
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

Adrian

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2013, 12:26:21 PM »
Tom,

more food for thought: some of the more recent designs of Dell'Orto motorcycle carbs have oval bores, one of these could fit well with a 500 AVL inlet port.

Regards,

A.

ace.cafe

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2013, 12:44:22 PM »
Tom,

more food for thought: some of the more recent designs of Dell'Orto motorcycle carbs have oval bores, one of these could fit well with a 500 AVL inlet port.

Regards,

A.

That's a good point, Adrian.
And Dell'Orto is a fine carburetor. I remember that brand well from my years with the Italian bikes.

Thanks.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

Mitch

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Re: Need a willing test subject.
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2013, 11:40:16 AM »
I'll submit my bike... Its a 2006 AVL... With a bit of tweeking did 83.311 at Bonneville

I have friends who can help with the technical stuff I dont know and am willing to learn...



I live near Seattle WA and have 2 other RE's... this one is destined for speed tests... Mitch