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Author Topic: Some recent head work results  (Read 1038 times)

ace.cafe

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Some recent head work results
« on: February 15, 2013, 02:50:44 PM »
Attached is the flow graph comparison of the stock head, the Fireball head, and the new Raised Port head. And there is one trace of an Intermediate porting option which we tried along the way during the Raised Port development work.

We will use this new Raised Port design in an Indian-made Bullet 500 head with some of our special valve gear and a very high lift system to achieve our biggest power gains ever.

When viewing the chart, please take note of the Fireball intake flow trace and the stock intake flow trace, and that the Fireball yields approximately double the power of the stock engine with this amount of flow.
This new Raised Port intake flow is almost the same amount of increase in flow over the Fireball intake flow.

We feel fairly confident that this new modification will yield a similar increase in power, which we hope will yield over 50hp at the rear wheel.

We will see how well it does when it's done. We expect to see this on the road in a month or two.

Wish us luck!

The attached graph may be downloaded in the PDF attachment below.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 02:59:38 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Chuck D

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2013, 06:40:16 PM »
Just saw this and I can't believe it has gone un-commented on for over four hours.
Do you guys realize what's being achieved here? The man is taking our 500cc pushrod engine into Manx and G50 territory.
Well, I'm excited.
Good luck Tom! and thanks for doing that voodoo that you do.
Chuck.







2006 Bullet Sixty-5 w/ Ace "Fireball 535" Kit (#10)
Ace "GP" head in the works.

'76 Honda CB550Four K(sold)


"What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understandin'?"

ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 07:09:26 PM »
Hi Chuck,
Thanks! I appreciate the support!

I guess this is getting a little too esoteric for a lot of the readership.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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da punds

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 07:21:48 PM »
I am still in shock, trying to get my head around this, and realise the ramifications. Top marks to Tom, wondering what the torque and power curve will look like, will this lead to a more acute power delivery and at what rpm.

Kevin

ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 07:55:16 PM »
I am still in shock, trying to get my head around this, and realise the ramifications. Top marks to Tom, wondering what the torque and power curve will look like, will this lead to a more acute power delivery and at what rpm.

Kevin

Hi Kevin,
We'll really have to test it to know. But, my estimation is that the torque curve will be moved up the rpm range to some degree, along with the peak hp point. We were aiming for a more radical kind of build with this, and to get the most out of it, more rpm is going to be part of the equation.
However, the port is still a fast port, and it's still got a 32mm entry diameter, and it really lets a lot of air in with all that lift we will have, so I think the torque curve is still going to be pretty fat. One of the aims is to get even more torque, and if anything is going to give us more torque, it's this kind of design change. In fact, the porting guy at Mondello's said that he thinks that "the midrange is going to be ferocious!" That's what he said.

I'm thinking that we may want to try pulling the lobe center advanced by about 4.5 degrees with the 3-way timing pinion, to 108.5 ATDC, in an effort to maintain the same dynamic compression and slightly peak the hp a little higher with that. We'll try that and see how it does. I suspect that is where we will like it best. Worth a try, anyway.

Basically, I think it is going to feel much more powerful all around, but the lowest rpms might not see much improvement, and the middle rpms and upper rpms will see a lot of improvement. And the rpm range will be higher, the torque peak rpm should be higher, and the peak hp rpm should be higher.

It should be quite a ride!

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:58:41 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 08:31:52 PM »
To put this into some sort of perspective, let's pretend this was a V8 engine with 8 of our cylinders on it.

At just a little over a half-liter in our cylinder, with 8 of them we would have about a 4.2 liter V8 which was putting out about 500 hp at the crank, which is how most car hp figures are quoted.
Or, about 400hp at the rear wheels, if you prefer.
That's the relative state of tune that this thing is at.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 08:53:32 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Mike_D

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2013, 02:21:13 AM »
I've only been into bikes for like a year and a half and don't yet understand all this stuff (though I am trying) so all I can say is: more power -- cool!  And also:

How will this affect the reliability?  It seems from reading many of the other posts about Fireballs that the original set up was pretty damn reliable (or bulletproof if you will).  Will the extra power put a lot of strain on the bottom end (this is assuming that you have done up the bottom end properly)...I guess what I am getting at is: you made the Fireball to behave like a street bike -- is this more of a racing set up?  As someone who is looking into fireballing their bike in the future -- is this for me?  Or is this just a project to see how much power you can get from a Bullet?

And lastly: Chuck is this for your bike?  Even more reason to get a beer now...I'd love to hear about it in person.

ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2013, 02:44:13 AM »
I've only been into bikes for like a year and a half and don't yet understand all this stuff (though I am trying) so all I can say is: more power -- cool!  And also:

How will this affect the reliability?  It seems from reading many of the other posts about Fireballs that the original set up was pretty damn reliable (or bulletproof if you will).  Will the extra power put a lot of strain on the bottom end (this is assuming that you have done up the bottom end properly)...I guess what I am getting at is: you made the Fireball to behave like a street bike -- is this more of a racing set up?  As someone who is looking into fireballing their bike in the future -- is this for me?  Or is this just a project to see how much power you can get from a Bullet?

And lastly: Chuck is this for your bike?  Even more reason to get a beer now...I'd love to hear about it in person.

We don't have any data on the performance and reliability yet.
All I can say about it at this time is that increased power puts increased stress on all parts, and that users can expect to see more frequent inspection and service intervals.
We are pushing the platform pretty near the limit with this Raised Port set-up, and I would recommend this for advanced users. The regular Fireball is plenty strong for the average owner in terms of power, and it has a very good reliability record, so I would recommend that for most people.

We actually have 3 levels of performance in the Iron Barrel models at this time.
We have the Clubman, which is about halfway between the stock bike and the Fireball.
We have the Fireball which doubles the horsepower output over the stock bike.
And now we will have this Raised Port system which is about at a race bike level.

Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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cochi

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2013, 03:01:08 AM »
Wow!! Ace, those are incredible results. Are you going to use the same compression ratio as the standard Fireball? cochi :) :)

cafeman

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 04:16:00 AM »
Hi Chuck,
Thanks! I appreciate the support!

I guess this is getting a little too esoteric for a lot of the readership.

It's right up my alley! Roller rockers, roller profile cams and reworked roller follower setup........machined billet cylinders.....completely new head casting with cnc porting..... machined billet cases.....the whole works. Why not, that's where this madness leads to, and I think it's a good thing. ;)

ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 12:17:27 PM »
Wow!! Ace, those are incredible results. Are you going to use the same compression ratio as the standard Fireball? cochi :) :)

Hi Cochi,
Thanks!
We will vary the compression ratio to suit the application.
This head will be our racing head. So, the racing bikes will have as much compression as we can give them with the fuel that is used. Some racers might use methanol, and could use somewhere around 13:1.
Bikes that will run on the street can use our normal 9:1 with pump gas, or they could run some higher compression if they want to use octane booster or if they have access to av-gas or some other high octane fuel in their areas.

This head's flow result is about all that we can get out of this factory casting. We are already welding up certain areas where we exceeded the available aluminum around the port. And our rocker system is designed to give enough lift to really use all of this port. It's not that we made it all that much bigger, and it even keeps the same 32mm entry. We just re-shaped it and raised it up for a better approach angle to the valve. Giving the air a straighter path into the cylinder with less turning is a big thing in a performance application. And to do that, we had to bust through the port roof into the valve spring seat area, and re-weld that all up and machine a new spring seat, and then shape the new port roof up higher than it was before, and create a new valve guide support boss, and shape the whole thing to flow more than ever before. This is not a cheap and easy process. It's all done by hand on the bench by real experts  cutting and welding new port passageways, and using hand-operated die-grinders to work out this new shape and grind these ports one at a time by hand, and testing them on the flow bench for results as they go along.This is only done when you are going for the maximum.

So, in essence, yes this is our racing head, and it can be used in a street application where the compression is limited for pump fuel.
It would be considered a viable option for those who feel they want to move beyond what a regular Fireball can do, and have some expertise in using and maintaining a sharp-edged performance machine.

We still expect our Fireball 535 to be our most popular product, because it is very satisfying to use on the street, and it costs less, and is more approachable by nearly any normal Bullet user. This Raised Port system, on the other hand, would be a natural progression for a Fireball owner who wants to step up to the next level of high performance, but might not have the money or desire to buy a Manx or a G50. It's a specialty custom-built product with an exclusive nature and a limited market above the level of the Fireball. We do not expect that the everyday commuter Bullet owner is going to be riding around on these. Even the Fireball is a pretty exclusive product that only a couple dozen people even own now. There will be even fewer lucky ones who will own this.

If anyone were to ask me, I would say that more people should own a Fireball. The Fireball is really a spectacularly enjoyable street ride, and is what a Bullet really should have been from the start. Reliability issues solved, very streetable in traffic, guaranteed to put a smile on your face when you twist the throttle, and can do "The Ton".
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 01:53:16 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

ace.cafe

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2013, 01:21:45 PM »
Fireball port: (Sideways pic, sorry)



Raised port:
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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72westie

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2013, 01:58:06 PM »
Damn. That's a nice looking port there. If you do end up getting one out for the track and need a fool to ride it for you, send me a shout!  :) I have only caught 1 racebike on fire so far!  ;D
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ERC

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 06:27:11 PM »
Where is this work done, you mentioned in another thread you don't have a shop?  ERC
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cochi

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Re: Some recent head work results
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2013, 06:39:25 PM »
Ace, Westie is right, the ports are gorgeous. I'm going to print the photos, enlarge them, frame them and hang them on my office wall. Can't wait to see how they perform. I've got to win the Lotto soon!!! Thanks . cochi :D