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Author Topic: Overall reliability of the new C5s  (Read 3156 times)

patndhat

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Overall reliability of the new C5s
« on: February 26, 2013, 11:13:52 PM »
Hey gang. I'm currently planning for a C5 in the summer, but I've heard a lot of tales about their not being the most reliable daily driver.

Any truth to this, or was the obvious ruse of a Triumph dealer (former Enfield dealer) to swoop on a sale what it sounded like?

I'm handy with a wrench, so I don't mind tightening up and loctiting, doing the maintenance as needed, but am concerned about overally performance suffering due to factory defects that aren't supported.

Them's the stories I was being told.

'Cause I have my heart set on the C5.

patndhat

Rich Mintz

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 11:41:48 PM »
I'm not mechanically inclined at all, don't understand how motorcycles work other than theoretically, and have never owned one before.

I bought a new (2010 EFI model, but dealer-new) C5 a bit over two months ago and have ridden it 1,500 miles (almost every day) without any serious problem, including a few 100-mile days. It has started up immediately every time without incident, in all kinds of weather. I rode it 40 miles this morning after leaving it overnight in a subfreezing outdoor garage, with hardly any warm-up time.

Here's my detailed 800-mile report:  http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,15867.0.html

I've now ridden it another 700 additional miles since then; the MPG has improved as I've learned how to ride it, and my facility with the transmission has improved too. I have nothing serious at all to complain about.

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2013, 12:22:05 AM »
There is very little wrong with the reliability. They are certainly no worse than a Triumph! Like any mechanical thing, I can't guarantee that nothing will go wrong, but that's why the warranty is there. The maintenance requirements are small. The bike is an excellent daily ride and a lot of fun to put 300+ miles out playing in the hills! It will handle pretty much handle anything you throw at and survive. It just won't do it terribly fast, but it is a capable freeway bike. Just learn to stay in the slower lanes.
You'll love it!
Bare
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patndhat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2013, 12:26:27 AM »
That was very helpful. Anybody else care to chime in? I'm particularly keen on engine performance issues, as my experience is that the throttle gets you out of more scrapes than the brakes.

I don't want a fast bike, but I'd like to know if I have to punch it in an emergency it'll respond.

Gonna spend it's life puttin' around SF and Oakland.

BTW any Bullet owners in the Bay Area that would be willing to chat would be just grand.

Jack Leis

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2013, 12:29:01 AM »
18,500 miles on a 2011 G5 with barely a whimper.
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

Rich Mintz

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 12:42:36 AM »
It's a great bike for cruising at 65 in the right lane, with a bit of extra power to go beyond that when needed.

Regarding the throttle -- except on a fairly steep uphill or with a strong headwind, you can ride along at 65 without topping out the throttle (i.e., with a little reserve throttle to juice your way out of a problem). So far in 1,500 miles, about half on highway, I've never had a situation where I didn't have more throttle available when I needed it.

If you're looking to cruise routinely at 80, it's not the bike for you -- but that's not because of the throttle or even the speed. (I haven't tried, but I bet it'll work its way up to 80.) It's because of the vibration.

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 12:47:32 AM »
They're adequately quick up to 50 or so. Above that not so great. I know what you saying about the throttle getting you out of trouble, I've been riding Superbikes for the last 20 years, and a nice 60-100 shot is nice. You just have to learn to not expect that with the Enfields. But, honestly, I never really missed it. You accept and conform to  the bike's capabilities and I'll guarantee you will enjoy riding this slow bike fast a lot more than riding the fast bikes slow. As for vibration, I never found the vibration to be that bothersome and I had mine indicating 91 mph one day. Saw 80+ a lot and my speedo seemed to be within a couple of MPH. I've owned a lot of other bikes that were worse, SR-500s, for instance. It will be a fantastic bike in the Bay Area. This bike didn't take long to rise to my #1 favorite of all that I've owned for the last 50 years.  But it was a tough decision as #2 is a Yamaha ThunderAce. Oddly enough, 2 bikes out of 3 that I totaled! The third one, I hated.
Now just waiting for my Cafe Racer!
Bare
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 12:53:01 AM by barenekd »
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motorat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 12:50:22 AM »
it is fantastic around town and back roads.
if you venture the back roads around napa and calistoga you will really enjoy the bike. above 65 it is not that much fun.
for comuter traffic it is fantastic, the small size really fits between the lanes.
in heavy traffic i would rather ride the c5 over my vstrom, but when the lane open up and traffic speeds up the vstrom is better.
Joe
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Rich Mintz

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 12:59:25 AM »
One comment: remember it's a very lightweight bike (around 300 pounds). This means that in the city it handles almost like a scooter.

Jack Leis

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 02:10:42 AM »
One comment: remember it's a very lightweight bike (around 300 pounds). This means that in the city it handles almost like a scooter.
It is actually 412 lbs. plus accessories .
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

JVS

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 02:21:32 AM »
It is actually 412 lbs. plus accessories .

+ 1

@patndhat

I have a B5 (same engine as the C5) and it is running perfectly.  ;D
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Arizoni

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 04:02:52 AM »
I have a 2011 G5 Deluxe and after 9,200 miles I've never had a whimper out of it.

It always starts.  It always gets me anyplace I want to ride it.  It is easy to maintain and easy to customize with low cost factory and other accessories.

Riding in town it easily accelerates from a stop light as fast or faster than the cars around me.

I've taken 400 mile trips on it starting at 1200 feet elevation up to over 8200 feet and the fuel injection has adjusted for all of it with no problem.

I get around 70 mpg without babying it.

When I first bought it, I was concerned about the engineering and materials the Indians might have used on it but after almost 2 years of riding it (and replacing the chain at 3500 miles) I can say my fears were unfounded.

My RE draws attention wherever it goes.  It looks like and rides like a 1955 vintage motorcycle with a dependable, updated fuel injected engine and a disk brake on the front.
People are amazed that such a thing is still being made and even Harley riders give it a big thumbs up when they see it.
To say I'm pleased with my bike goes without saying. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Jack Leis

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 04:44:26 AM »
Plus One Jim !
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

squire

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 05:58:36 AM »
My bike's had some foibles but that's what makes it special. It always starts and has never let me down in the year I've owned it/her/him.

Ice

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 06:34:17 AM »
The Triumph dealer does not know the difference between the older Iron Barrel engine and the UCE mill. 
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

BRADEY

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 03:02:39 PM »
If you ride the C5/G5 over open roads rather than city, the engine breaks in better, and lasts a long time. however you must respect her limits. She will delight you with an occassional 90 plus MPH but she is sweet around 65 MPH.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 07:10:41 AM by BRADEY »

gremlin

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 04:52:47 PM »
......She will delight you with an occassional 90 plus MPH .......

snicker, snicker ....   I want your bike.
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Bulletman

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 05:05:25 PM »

Gonna spend it's life puttin' around SF and Oakland.

BTW any Bullet owners in the Bay Area that would be willing to chat would be just grand.
I love riding my C5 2011( purchased June 2012 ) Bike from Stockton to Murphys and Big trees, I frequently take the back roads to Angels camp and mokelumne hill, and love taking the back roads to Tahoe. I also get to Dublin and Livermore over the Altamont occassionally. Im a beginner with absolutely no Mechanical skills and can say with the help of this forum Ive become quite proficent, this bike and forum is making me quite the tinkerer & Im loving every second of it. If you would like to connect drop me a line.
Cheers.
"A Blast from my Past"
Mark F   (Northern, CA)
Black C5 2011

Jack Leis

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
snicker, snicker ....   I want your bike.
Thats because it weighs only 300 lbs.  LOL
I would much rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow    Jack

gremlin

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 05:57:32 PM »
.........I had mine indicating 91 mph one day.........

Let me guess ....  coming down Cajon Pass just after the Oak Hills summit, fully tucked in -and- WOT !
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
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1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


BrashRooster

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2013, 02:01:07 AM »
c5 military edition OD Green. That is the best model made. :-D  ok matter of opinion. I got new stuff for my bike, a Serbian rucksack (small) for one side of the Airfly crash guard and that Gas mask bag for the other side. Wonderful to hang bags on a airfly on long rides. Ok so the C5 is well worth buying. I would cry if something ever happened to mine even though I have full coverage. I have been riding it in the cold 33F so if that is any indication as to how well the bikes are built. We are talking below 32F some times in snow and ice. Oh yeah for real. I rode it in 100+ degree weather right after getting it. I have 300+ mile days and put 3000 miles on it the first three months. Hmm I hit rain a few times and that is never good on bikes but like champ it pulled through. The C5 is as good, no it is great! (In a Tony the Tiger voice).  It sips gasoline by the way not at all like my 1982 Yamaha Maxim XJ650 (YICS) with a carbed inline 4. Well it gets fairly decent considering what it is (52mpg tops 45mpg when riding balls out) and does like 130ish miles per hour. So I ride my C5 all the time now the XJ may have the HP and like a pound more torque then my C5 but its also a 100 pounds heavier so on long rides it matters.

Yup C5 is my daily ride. Soon I am selling my car so it is becoming my primary ride. I wouldn't do this if I really didn't think it could handle it.
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hillntx

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2013, 03:04:44 AM »
I'm at just over 1500 miles on my 2011 C5 and no issues to date.  It's a great bike for 60mph and less; not enough guts for much over that and due to the light weight its not much fun over 60mph.  Great bike for around town and back roads, I prefer to keep it off the highway for my own sanity.

Arizoni

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2013, 03:40:26 AM »
Hopefully the OP noticed that I'm riding a G5.
As the original post was about a C5 I guess I should mention that it does not share the same frame or front forks.

Many of the 2009-2011 C5's did have a problem with riding at high speeds.
They became rather unstable at speeds of 65mph and higher.
Some found that running a low, by modern standards, front tire pressure of 18 psi helped but did not totally fix the condition.

The 2012 models got the front forks redesigned so the front axle is in line with the center of the fork tubes and this may have fixed the problem.
I know I've been looking for some of the 2012 model RE's to complain about high speed wobbles but I haven't seen anyone mention them yet.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

squire

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 04:23:31 AM »
Well, I have a 2012 C5 that came with the old style forks (the axle ahead of the fork C/L) and I have absolutely no handling issues at any speed....nada. I keep my tires at 18 front and 24 rear.

TWinOKC

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 05:15:02 AM »
The tire pressure issue keeps coming up on C5's, I run 18f and 28r because that's what the owners manual calls for.  Yes, if the road is extremely rough or has rain grooves in it, the bike will probably become unstable.  I have seen 80 mph (indicated) on my bike many times with no problems, the bike and me are happiest around 65 - 70 (indicated).
I just don't think these bikes do well if they are run at high speed for long periods of time.

Just my thoughts.

Your results may vary.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 05:17:54 AM by TWinOKC »
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Triumph Bonneville T100

hillntx

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2013, 02:23:33 AM »
On my C5 I run the tires around 28-32PSI, which gives a great ride and crisp handling up to around 60 mph without feeling sluggish at slower speeds.  I had my ST1300 out the other day, at 760 lbs. and 125hp it is effortless and smooth as glass at highway speeds.  I enjoy my Royal Enfield immensely, but its not a bike for the interstates regardless of whether some choose to take it there.

Portland Bullet

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2013, 04:31:40 PM »
I am glad to see this posting and the responses. I too am closely considering an RE, likely either a G5 or B5. I have mulled over the highway speed issue (and have read thorough several very helpful threads on this site) and am fairly convinced that with proper break-in of the engine all will be well. I live in Portland, Oregon, and intend countryside rides for the most part. And, I too have been lightly dissuaded from RE by a Triumph dealer - nothing against Triumph, of course. I may still go that route, but I incline more and more to RE. Have a good and safe day, everyone.
The Portland Bullet
To Dream, to Live, to Ride

2011 B5 Bullet 500cc

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 05:56:47 PM »
Quote
Let me guess ....  coming down Cajon Pass just after the Oak Hills summit, fully tucked in -and- WOT !

Actually it was on the 15 on a fairly flat road by Lake Elsinore. It surprised me, but the beast was running good that day! I had just put on the Pirelli MT66s and they were a bit smaller in diameter than the K70s, so that obviously could have some effect on that although my speedo checks showed the speed to be quite accurate. Anyway it did look nice!
Bare
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2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
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monkey

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2013, 12:00:30 AM »
My battery died out pretty quick. I kept it hooked up to a battery tender and was still having some issues.

Fortunately, I found replacement batteries for $49 on Amazon.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 12:37:38 AM by monkey »

GSS

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2013, 12:17:44 AM »
2010 C5. Absolutely no reliability issues. A few tweaks sorted out the high speed wobble.

GSS
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It's a Jeep thing......

Kevin Mahoney

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 06:00:19 AM »
We put a C5 out back of the shop once when it was 30 degrees below zero. We let it cold soak and to our shock the darn thing started. The wonder of fuel injection I guess.

If problems are going to occur they are mostly likely in the beginning and well within the warranty period. It is really rare to have any kind of fuel injection or engine problem.

motorat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 07:20:08 PM »

If problems are going to occur they are mostly likely in the beginning and well within the warranty period. It is really rare to have any kind of fuel injection or engine problem.

mine has 5200 miles and it is on it's 3 injector.
i bought it with 900 miles and was told that the injector was replaced before i got it, and in dec of last year it was running bad and after trying several suggestions from this forum i finally brought it to fresno to have it checked out. the service manager looked at it, didn't test ride it, said all my problems were because i put a d&d exhaust on it. so i put the exhaust it was delivered with back on and this time they did a test ride and replaced the injector.
it has been fine since but i wonder if i am going to have another problem in the future.

luckily it was still under warranty.
Joe
08 dl650abs
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barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2013, 08:30:59 PM »
Probably not, but nothing in life is guaranteed, except death and taxes.
bare
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2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
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Royalista

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2013, 10:59:38 PM »

If problems are going to occur they are mostly likely in the beginning and well within the warranty period. It is really rare to have any kind of fuel injection or engine problem.

In other words, do put enough miles into the two years.  ;D

Warranty issues in my case were: solenoid, sprag clutch, rear wheel bearing (2), rear sprocket, low fuel sensor (2), RHS mirror and a few cosmetics. All within 7200 miles.

Others: chain replaced at 7000 miles, 2 of the small bulbs, 1 bolt heat shield.
After a run through the forest the coupler of the small light in the casquette used to disconnect, not any more.
Currently at 11000 miles, two months from expiration warranty.
Original twin spark still going strong, as does the battery. No complaints there.

Whether in front of the convenience store or at a park people step up to make a talk. Oh, can you rely on that! Do like it. Often yields good stories and inside tips of whatever subject. You meet interesting people standing by an Enfield.  8)

It took me well over a year to adjust. From a matter of fact approach I've moved to a more 'empathical' relationship, if that makes sense to anyone. It's different, but feels proper.

moriunt omnes pauci vivunt

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2013, 06:14:02 PM »
Things that broke under warranty on my G5 - sprag clutch (15,000 miles). Low fuel light, replaced the float, still didn't work. The original float was OK. Never fixed the light part. The left had switch box. the original switch was assembled wrong at the factory. I redid it, but the headlight was still very dim. I tried different lights to no avail, so got a new switch box. Still didn't fix the problem. I ended up running a hotwire from the battery to the headlight through relays and that cured my lighting problem.
Things replaced - all bulbs except turn signal and headlight with LEDs, chain at 7500 miles, totally shot. 17T sprocket with 18T.  Most of the stuff I replaced was by choice rather than need. The basic bike was pretty Bulletproof!
Bare
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2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2013, 07:35:37 PM »
It should be noted that Bare rode his bike HARD!  Lots of WOT and canyon carving with faster bikes that he kept up with.

Scott

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2013, 10:40:43 PM »
 Thanks to all. I just spoke to my local LE dealer, and set up my purchase for this summer. Payments less than current budget for commuting by train...so I squish together a down payment, and then I'll end up even, including the tolls...and oh yeah...I'll have this beautiful little bike too!

BTW there's a gorgeous '52 Enfield in a shop window on Market St. in SF. Fully restored with (they claim) 3500 original miles on it. $7500 (cough cough) though the website says '55/$8000. I guess it got cheaper and younger at the same time. If only I could do the same!
http://shopmulholland.com/the-roadtrip/motors/royal-enfield
Can't say I wasn't tempted, but UCE and a starter are very compelling. Not to mention the warranty. See you on the road!

patndhat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 10:43:01 PM »
oops...that should have been "RE" not "LE". I'm buying a bike, not a rifle. Though those are nice too...

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 11:10:35 PM »
Quote
BTW there's a gorgeous '52 Enfield in a shop window on Market St. in SF. Fully restored with (they claim) 3500 original miles on it. $7500 (cough cough) though the website says '55/$8000. I guess it got cheaper and younger at the same time. If only I could do the same!
http://shopmulholland.com/the-roadtrip/motors/royal-enfield

That is a 1956 and later frame. Gotta watch those guys!
The '55s and earlier are more like a B5
Bare
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 11:48:30 PM by barenekd »
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motorat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2013, 11:32:20 PM »
that bike has been on and off craigslist for about 18 months.
last i saw it was 6800.


congrats on the bike.
if you get north of the golden gate look me up.
Joe
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mattsz

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2013, 11:57:05 PM »
Thanks to all. I just spoke to my local LE dealer, and set up my purchase for this summer.

Well, I hafta ask... what bike are you getting?  ;)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2013, 12:13:25 AM »
Couldn't one find an iron barrel (same bike basically) in fine shape for around $2000?   Tell everyone it's a '55, they won't know!  Heck, I probably wouldn't know!
 
Scott

saint45

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2013, 06:21:24 AM »
patndhat -
I live in the East bay and these are good bay area bikes.
Im thinking the Triumph dealer was Munroe. I wouldnt deal with them no matter what bike I was Buying( I bought my G5 there)
They like to blame RE reliability when its their incompetence, poor service and high prices that this dealership suffers from. I dont have a vendetta against them, I actually want to trade up to a Triumph but ill be going elsewhere.
Anyway, i would recommend this bike to most, just way too small for me, though i love Enfields still, its time to face reality.
Buy what you want. Nothin like an Enfield.

motorat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »
monroe dropped RE and suteria west took it over.
i have not dropped by there yet but the conversation i had with them was a lot more positive than ones i had with monroe.
Joe
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barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2013, 09:06:31 PM »
that's Scuderia West
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2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
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motorat

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2013, 09:13:31 PM »
thanks...i was pretty sure i had the spelling wrong.
Joe
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 06:25:17 AM »
Is that a play on words?  "Scooteria"?

barenekd

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2013, 05:12:45 PM »
Quote
Is that a play on words?  "Scooteria"?

Could be, I don't know what else they sell.
Actually, "Scuderia" meant "stable" in Italian, but Enzo Ferrari, back in the '30s, used it for his car racing team, as he was into horses, too. It's now an accepted term for "racing team"
Bare
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2013, 08:53:13 PM »
Prolly more that than what I was thinking. 

Scott

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2013, 07:47:54 PM »
Just got finished breaking in my C5 Classic. I couldn't be happier. Hopefully I'll be seeing a lot of my Bay Area RE acquaintances on the North Bay ride this summer. Cheers. BTW yeah, it was Munroe. I deal with car dealers every day at my job...most of them are very pressured, but honest. I don't like it when I find they are not. I kinda felt that way about Munroe. Scuderia West is a totally different animal. I can't recommend them highly enough.

saint45

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Re: Overall reliability of the new C5s
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2013, 12:13:34 AM »
Good to know you had a good experience at Scuderia! Like an Idiot I sold my G5 to buy a (cough, cough)Harley. Gthe list goes on ans on. ranted its a used one, but you wanna talk about maintanence costs and reliability? Now I have a bike I cant ride at all because I cant afford all the things it needs. Runs well now but tires, seat etc.... Anyway, Im considering a C5 as there arent many G models around it seems these days. Everyone seems pretty happy with theirs. Also I htink the California bikes have better quality control.My guess.