Reminder: Be safe, people.

[JVS]

Hey everyone,

Most of you must be aware of rnmickeymouse's channel on YouTube where he and his team post clips of riders on the Mullholland Hwy/Snake section. Example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bYtEBWj6Q   
Typical lowsides and highsides. And other great (non-crash) clips of motorbikes and cars etc.

Anyhow, I was going through the 'tube again and came across this clip where a new rider most likely target fixates and hits a guardrail - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub74FtY40DE

I'm aware most of you are experienced riders and know how to be safe out there. But still, looking at the clip and the distance between the rider recording the clip and the poor fellow who crashed - I'm so glad that both of these riders did not get seriously hurt (Things happen quickly  ). And this clip has scared me once more and made me aware that I shouldn't take riding for granted...anything can happen at any time. It's a bit sad that the guy had to ask the other riders to help get the crashed bike to the side. However, it's great that they still stopped...

So yeah, be safe out there!

[Scottie J]

That guy who crashed was sitting way too upright for that tight of a turn.  It almost looked like he was scared to lean into the turn.

[baird4444]

I just spent an hour anda half, and a pot of coffee watching motorcycle
videos....    what a way to start the day!!
             - Mike

[mattsz]

Hey everyone,

Most of you must be aware of rnmickeymouse's channel on YouTube where he and his team post clips of riders on the Mullholland Hwy/Snake section. Example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1bYtEBWj6Q

Ok, so can someone with some experience fill me in on what happened here?  They show different camera angles and speeds, and as near as I can see, the guy wasn't going very fast; he just fell down.  Is there more to it than that?  Was there junk on the road surface?  I'd like to learn from this...

[motorat]

it looks like too much lean angle for the speed.
that is where the photographers are at and all the riders like to show off how they can hang off their bikes and look cool.....a lot don't have the skills to execute the manover

no worry for the re...the solid mounted pegs will hit long before you get to that angle.

[barenekd]

Obviously a new rider that doesn't know how to steer (countersteer) a bike. He got target fixation on the guardrail and ran into it! This is just an extension from another recent thread about countersteering.
Target fixation is looking at something, fixing on it and that is where you are going to go. To avoid it, keep you eyes moving. If you see a rock in the road or a guardrail on the side of a road, do not lock your eyes on it. Look for a way around it and you will be fine. If you find you've been locked onto something and you're headed for it, then countersteer to turn away from it. Just think "Push" and you'll probably miss it.
For those who don't know about countersteering, most novices and a lot of old timers, it is how you actually steer a motorcycle. Do not listen to any arguments to the contrary, they're wrong!! Simple as that! If you're a riding a single track vehicle over about 20 MPH, you steer it by countersteering, you are pushing the handle bar on the side you want to turn to. Yes, pushing. If you turn left, you have pushed the left bar forward. You can argue about all these other things you think you do, shifting weight, weighting footpegs, pushing the right bar, but in doing all that other stuff, you are still pushing the left bar forward to turn left.
This is the problem the guy on the Kwacker. He was trying do the the wrong stuff instead, that he thought would turn the bike, but doesn't. you can see him desparately trying to turn more to the left, but it doesn't go.
They do teach the fundamentals of countersteering in the beginning motorcycle MSF courses, but they don't really have enough room in the riding area to try it. So no practice, no remembering.
They've been teaching it for 30 years in road racing schools, which is where I learned about it. I had been riding and racing for 20 years and never heard of it or really thought much about how a motorcycle actually steers. And I could probably fixate on something and nail it! Like a 5' deep hole off to the side of the track! Guarantee when you practice and get it into your conscious mind, you will be a much safer rider!
Kieth Code was the guy who really started getting it out to the hoi polloi when he started his racing schools in about 1980. I want to one at Riverside in '81 and learned a lot! Since then all l the racing schools have taught it too. MSF didn't get the message until maybe 10 years ago.
For those who don't think they use it at the rest who've never heard of it, fink yurself a lightly traveled road preferably with a few curves in it and go down it and practice just weaving back and forth pushing the bar in the direction you want to go. You'll notice tat when you want to stop turning and straighten up, you'll be pushing the bar from the opposite side, steering into the turn! Just keep pushing and going back weaving down the road. As you get into tighter turns, you will learn how much more quickly you can enter them with just a bit more of a nudge on the bars and the same if you want to go through some esses how quickly you can bank from side to side. Practice this until you just think "Push" when you want to turn. It can give you're hand the signal to do it right, quickly. Then you don't run into things you thought were so purty there in the middle of the road, or maybe even off to the side.
The reason this works in when you push the left bar, it turn right for a millisecond and the bike starts to fall to the left, initiating the turn. You then balance the bike with pressures on the bar. If the bike lens left farther than you want in a little right bar pressure will straighten it up, if you need a little more bank and turn, a nudge of left bar will get you there. To straighten up, again, a little right bar pressure will straighten the bike up.
Since you guys have been doing this subconsciously for years, it shouldn't take much effert to move it to your conscious mind! Without that little "Push" in my mind a couple of months ago, I probably would be a hood ornament on some damn pickup!
there's another video on Utube of a guy going up the Snake on Mulholland on 250 or so scooter and runs into the guardrail much the same as this guy. target fixation.
Bare

[boggy]

-Target fixation.
-His line was also not great. He entered the corner from the inside of the lane, instead of the outside.  Had he leaned at that point, he'd be in the other lane. He saw the oncoming car and panicked.
-Can't be sure but he was probably in too high a gear and didn't have the engine pull to let him lean over and accelerate through the corner.

Clearly a novice rider and on a brand-spanking-new bike to boot.  Those Ninja 300's are new. Looks like he didn't know the road either, and was probably going a bit too quick.

Very avoidable.  Probably happens all the time.

[mattsz]

Bare and Boggy -

Just to be clear... are you talking about the guy in the second video, yes?  The guy in the first video link didn't hit a rail, he seemed to be going along fine and just laid the bike down.

But your comments regarding the second guy are helpful, a good reminder.  We did talk about countersteering in our MSF class, but it was all talk, and I never understood it.  And interestingly, nobody, including the instructors, could explain it or even understand how I couldn't understand it.  Once I was out on the road, however, and I thought, "ok, now what about this countersteering business," and tried it, it was a quick awakening!

[motorat]

whatch dirt track racing on utube.
they counterstreer.

[AgentX]

whatch dirt track racing on utube.
they counterstreer.

True, but handling on loose surfaces and handling on pavement are kind of two different things.

[TWinOKC]

agree with all precious comments. 

First guy- looked like he leaned too far and drug something or his tire slipped.

The second guy, as previously stated - didn't plan ahead/set up with a good line and possibly fixated on the guard rail.  The bike will go wherever you are looking.

Think about this, when you are out riding, things can happen very quickly, most of the crashes from start to finish literally happen in the blink of an eye.

Glad both riders walked away.  Always ride safe and do not ride outside your comfort zone.

   

[jartist]

There's another low side video from a couple years ago that I watched over and over again but I just couldn't figure out what went wrong. The guy's form, focus, and speed all looked good. The only obvious thing I could see was his revs seemed low. It seems like goosing the throttle when the revs are low on a bike with high hp at high revs but nothing down low will make a tire want to spin up quick if it looses the slightest traction. Does this sound reasonable to anyone with more experience than me?

[Scottie J]

The first video with the R1 low side, looks like the rider gets a little too relaxed and isn't paying attention to his body position.  As he hits the apex of the turn, his left/inside foot makes contact with the road and his foot gets sucked under the rear tire causing the bike to jump and loose it's center of gravity.

The second video, the guy is just inexperienced and not a good rider.  He sees the car coming around the turn and he just freezes (get's fixated on the guardrail) and does nothing and then dumps it when he hits the shoulder.

BARE - Thanks for the clarification and knowledge about countersteering.  I knew of it, but never understood the concept as far as it relates to motorcycles.  I DO know that dropping your knee in turns makes a world of difference.  I never did that technique until I moved to Denver and started riding in the mountains.  I was having trouble getting through the hairpins safely and comfortably.  One day whenI was riding, when I got to the top of the mountain, a guy that was following me on his bike could see what I was doing wrong and pulled up next to me at the top.  He started telling me how when you're in turns (especially tight turns) dropping your knee pulls your center of gravity closer to the road allowing a tighter controlled turn/radius.  The further you drop your knee, the tighter you can turn.  Essentially.  I couldn't believe the difference this made.  It has even made me a better rider.  I feel more in control of my bike and feel more confident of myself and my ability to control my bike.  Which also helps decrease my fatigue, allowing me to ride for further distances.

Scottie

[boggy]

Counter steering is one of those things that anyone riding a bike does, and lots of folks don't realize.

A few months ago an agitated subscriber wrote a letter to Cycle World scolding them for spreading, what he claimed, was the myth of counter steering.  I was amazed that someone would be so brash in their ignorance.

It's not even debatable. Just push the bars like Bare said and it's clearly evident.  And if that's not enough, look at any race photos and you'll see those tires are pointed in a "counter" intuitive direction.

http://image.sportrider.com/f/8858452+w750+st0/146_0110_zoom+ducati+front_side_view.jpg

[barenekd]

The dropping of the knee's advantage is that it shifts the center of gravity to the inside of the bike and keeps the bike from having too lean as far, so you keep more tire in the ground and it deeps you from dragging bits as the bike isn't as far over. It turns better because, as far as the bike is concerned it is leaned over farther, tightening the turn.
As for any real relationship to countersteering, there is little. The countersteering principle is still the same. You have to use a bit less input whilst knee dragging inside as the bike doesn't lean as far. And as mentioned, adds a bit of drag to the inside lowering the steering effort needed.
As far as the MSF teachings go, they are doing a real disservice to the students as far as I'm concerned. It is the whole principle of riding a bike and they gloss over it. The dude would never have hit the guardrail if he had been aware how to do it!
As far as the guy in the first video, goes, he needs to learn how to lean off. He was sitting very straight and letting the bike overbank and it lost traction. He may have stuffed the footpeg or side stand. It looked like something lifted the real wheel off the ground. If he'd been in a knee dragging position, he wouldn't have dropped it! The proof of the knee dragging lean angles keeping the bike more upright. Watch the guy ahead of him!
Bare

[boggy]

Yeah, I think the trick with getting the knee down is more getting that ass OFF the seat. If the butt comes off the seat, your body weight will be out over the left, and you will put more weight on the left bar causing the counter steering (intentionally or unintentionally).  Putting your knee out without getting off the seat will only help in windy days ( referencing the windy riding thread here).

The biggest point to all of this is what Bare mentioned... the more you are leaned over, the less the bike needs to be, the more tire is on the road.  Not a big deal if you are just cruising but imperative at speed.

Good thread.

[barenekd]

Just moving the knee out does shift the CG slightly to the side. Every little bit can help. But obviously hanging your butt off does a lot more!
Bare

[Scottie J]

The guy on the R1 seriously runs over his foot.  Its the reason he loses his shoe.  If you continue to watch the video they show a different angle with a slow motion close up.  Watch 1:15 -1:25.

[barenekd]

The guy got his foot caught after the bike had lost its traction and was sliding out. Looks like the shoe was probably taken off by the swing arm. I did a bit of stop action on that and the bike was definitely going down before his foot was off the peg.
Bare

[jdrouin]

Maybe the MSF curriculum is taught with varying emphasis at different places. When I took the course, countersteering was the first technique they taught us after starting and braking. I practice it every morning in the "S" turn that greets me at my workplace.

As far as the second video goes, I agree that he seems to have had a poor line going into the curve (too much to the inside at the start), and that he didn't have the conviction to lean and/or countersteer the bike enough to match the speed. I'll add, though, that he also braked in the middle of the turn, which is a sure way to lose traction at a speed like that.

On day 2 of the MSF course, one of the instructors braked while turning a bike at low speed, which caused it to drop and fling him ass over head across the bars, accidentally demonstrating the point made in the classroom that braking while turning is dangerous.