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Author Topic: Oil Cooler  (Read 1333 times)

mustangdave

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Oil Cooler
« on: March 26, 2013, 02:08:47 AM »
Whats the skinny on OIL COOLERS?  Ace I saw on the FIREBALL Yahoo Group that you use to fabricate one. I'm thinking that an oil cooler might be a good way to help the engine run cooler.
I rode Japanese bikes as a kid...then I grew up and got some British Thunder

noisymilk

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2013, 04:32:03 AM »
I have one I used to have on my Enfield. I replaced it with the external oil filter that Ace/Chumma sell. I got the cooler from Chumma a while ago.

It's yours if you want it. It does help cool, I think.
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AgentX

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2013, 07:28:40 AM »
Interestingly, although the Snidal manual recommends it and Ace sold a cooler, in a discussion on his group, Tom (Ace) stated that the temp of the oil does little to cool the rest of the engine.

So my question is...is cooling the oil going to end up with it running at a lower temp than its optimal running spec?

ace.cafe

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2013, 11:27:45 AM »
Two things.
First, I have lost my source of radiators, so I can't make that one like I used to make.
Second, in many applications of the Bullet, the oil cooler is not necessary.
There could be some circumstances that it would be useful, like in very hot climates, racing, etc.
But for many street applications, we have found it to be not as necessary as we originally thought it would be.

I have access to one of my antique style radiators which is owned by a Fireball owner, which he didn't install, and he's looking to sell it.
If interested, just send me a message.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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Ice

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 04:41:48 PM »
+1 to what Ace said.

Also there are some other sides to oil coolers to consider.

Besides the usual cool the oil to cool the motor perspective there is cool the oil to preserve its life and cool the oil to reduce parts wear perspectives to consider.

Also over cooling oil is just as bad as over heating it.
Moisture and acids that form do not get a chance to dissipate when the oil is over cooled.

A good rule of thumb is if you run an oil cooler you should also run a oil cooler thermostat to regulate the temperature.

Hot climates and severe duty applications I.E. racing and high load/ low speed applications are where the benefits are greatest.

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

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barenekd

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 05:13:50 PM »
+1  In normal operating conditions an oil cooler would be detrimental to getting the oil up to an optimal temp.
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mustangdave

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 09:15:22 PM »
Thank guys...good info to have...
I rode Japanese bikes as a kid...then I grew up and got some British Thunder

Arizoni

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 09:23:15 PM »
I think the only place to tap into the pressurized oil system for a external oil cooler is the external pipe that runs up to the cylinder head.

Unless I'm wrong, using a thermostat in the external oil cooler could lead to a catastrophic failure of the rocker arms, the valve guides and the cam followers.

If the thermostat decides the oil is too cool and it doesn't need the cooler it will prevent the oil from circulating up to these parts.
The only way it could work without causing this problem is if the thermostat allows a free flow past the cooler when the oil is cool and it diverts the oil thru the radiator core when the oil is hot.
Jim
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ace.cafe

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 09:39:00 PM »
I think the only place to tap into the pressurized oil system for a external oil cooler is the external pipe that runs up to the cylinder head.

Unless I'm wrong, using a thermostat in the external oil cooler could lead to a catastrophic failure of the rocker arms, the valve guides and the cam followers.

If the thermostat decides the oil is too cool and it doesn't need the cooler it will prevent the oil from circulating up to these parts.
The only way it could work without causing this problem is if the thermostat allows a free flow past the cooler when the oil is cool and it diverts the oil thru the radiator core when the oil is hot.

That would be a by-pass system.
While some of the oil cooling systems would have such a thing, in days gone by, the vintage bikes just had a cooler plumbed into the oil line. If it got cold out, the rider put a little cover over the oil cooler to help prevent over-cooling.
Low-tech, but it worked okay.
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Ice

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 02:22:46 AM »
I think the only place to tap into the pressurized oil system for a external oil cooler is the external pipe that runs up to the cylinder head.

Unless I'm wrong, using a thermostat in the external oil cooler could lead to a catastrophic failure of the rocker arms, the valve guides and the cam followers.

If the thermostat decides the oil is too cool and it doesn't need the cooler it will prevent the oil from circulating up to these parts.
The only way it could work without causing this problem is if the thermostat allows a free flow past the cooler when the oil is cool and it diverts the oil thru the radiator core when the oil is hot.

 That is how they work.

Good too that you bring up the scavenge side of the system.

It is the easiest and most logical place to add coolers and spin on filters.



We never consider the feed side of the system.
 Tapping into it wood would allow 100% of the oil to be filtered or cooled but would take some modification to the timing chest cover and filter housing.

 Since it is the feed pump that lubes the crank, using anything less than aircraft grade plumbing for such a mod just would not give the warm and fuzzys.

*edits in italics*
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 04:51:57 AM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

young gun

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 04:57:47 AM »
Does anyone have a pic if the installed unit? I would be interested to see how it looks :)

AgentX

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2013, 07:33:50 AM »
Tom, since you're here and we're on the topic...do you think the spin-on filter mod is a good idea or does the traditional filter work well enough? 

I got my filter and mounted it in the airstream to try and get a bit of a radiator effect on my 350, but I'm wondering if it's worth it to try and plumb it back into the Fireball when I get it all built.

If I do add it to the Fireball, I'm going to mount it closer to the engine and more out of the general air stream.

1 Thump

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 05:08:33 PM »
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ace.cafe

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 05:31:12 PM »
Tom, since you're here and we're on the topic...do you think the spin-on filter mod is a good idea or does the traditional filter work well enough? 

I got my filter and mounted it in the airstream to try and get a bit of a radiator effect on my 350, but I'm wondering if it's worth it to try and plumb it back into the Fireball when I get it all built.

If I do add it to the Fireball, I'm going to mount it closer to the engine and more out of the general air stream.

The spin-on filter is a definite improvement.
The OEM filter element is hardly better than bandage gauze. We leave the OEM filter element in place to provide some protection that it gives as a screen before the crank bearing, and change it frequently.
But the spin-on filter becomes the main filter for the engine when it's installed in the oil return line to the head.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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Chuck D

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 05:43:51 PM »
The extra volume of oil doesn't hurt either.
Mine is mounted to the engine mounting plate.
Chuck.
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young gun

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 06:22:51 PM »

Ice

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 05:27:16 AM »
 Standard sock cloth type filers are widely variable in their filtering abilities.

 While we may get lucky and get one that catches particulates down to 35 microns ( .0013780in) others may only filter out solids down to 65 (.0025591in) or 70 microns  (.0027559in ) 

 This is not too big of a deal in the floating bush con rod as anything small enough to pass between the parts does so and anything big enough to lodge between the bush and crank pin will imbed in the white metal of the bushing and in this way the clearance is maintained.

 Roller bottom ends are a different story.
 They are precision ground and fitted to give the clearances ranging from .0008 (20.320 micron)  to .00015in. (38.100 micron) as the particular design requires.
 The bearings are made of hardened steel and ride on steel crank pins. There is no way for solid particles to imbed. 

 This is where spin on filters become necessary. They trap solids down into the 10 to 15 micron range (.00039370in to .00059055in) that would otherwise spall and pit the rollers in short order.
 
 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 05:30:47 AM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

AgentX

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 06:11:26 AM »
The extra volume of oil doesn't hurt either.
Mine is mounted to the engine mounting plate.
Chuck.

Mine too...very similar to what the original setup on the Badger was.  After some rough terrain riding, I've considered putting it up higher on the frame down tube, probably via a u-bolt.  I think I'm asking for trouble with it so low.  On pavement only, not too big of a deal, but I inevitably do stupid things for amusement.

High On Octane

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 03:16:25 PM »
On pavement only, not too big of a deal, but I inevitably do stupid things for amusement.

I've never done anything stupid on a motorcycle.....  Except those times I took my YZ 125 race bike to the liquor store for beer, with the front tire in the air.   ;D

ACE - Will this external filter adapter work on my '58 Trailblazer?  I plan on doing a lot of daily riding and mountain trips.  Also, I will be running Excelerated performance oil and would like to be able to run a synthetic fiber filter to get the best out of the oil.  Where are these filter kits available?
Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 03:27:43 PM »
I've never done anything stupid on a motorcycle.....  Except those times I took my YZ 125 race bike to the liquor store for beer, with the front tire in the air.   ;D

ACE - Will this external filter adapter work on my '58 Trailblazer?  I plan on doing a lot of daily riding and mountain trips.  Also, I will be running Excelerated performance oil and would like to be able to run a synthetic fiber filter to get the best out of the oil.  Where are these filter kits available?
Scottie

If it has an external oil pipe from the oil pump to the head, which I think it does have, then you can cut that line and plumb a filter kit into that, as an in-line filter.
Ebay usually sells external oil filter kits, and the actual filter element typically comes from a small car, so you can get one that uses the type of filter element you want.
A popular one is sold as the "Norton Spin-On Filter Kit".

My partner Chumma in NJ has kits like the one Chuck has on his bike, and you can contact him of you like that one. Chumma put that one on Chuck's bike.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 09:44:10 AM »
I only just noticed this thread and thought this may be of interest - our 500 racer origianally had an oil cooler when we first built and ran it, but it was later removed to reduce weight and any possible leakage occurring, with no ill effects. G.B. is not the hottest part of the world, but the bike gets a lot of stick and overheated oil has never been a problem.
 On the filter front, we have a remote spin on job, tapped into the feed to the big end, this was necessary for us because the engine would not sit low enough in the Featherbed frame with the oil filter housing at the bottom of the timing cover - so, off it came. I would think it possible to replicate what we have done, without removing the filter housing [to keep the original appearance], but some modifications and plugging of certain oilways would be required.
 The pictures should be self explanatory, click on the links below them, if they appear too big by clicking direct on the pictures themselves.
 B.W.

High On Octane

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2013, 01:26:34 PM »
B.W. - That looks very clean and something I'd be interested in doing.  Where did you source your parts from?  Where did you tap the oil lines into?  Were there already holes there?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2013, 05:15:23 PM »
B.W. - That looks very clean and something I'd be interested in doing.  Where did you source your parts from?  Where did you tap the oil lines into?  Were there already holes there?

Scottie
Hi Scottie,
 It was 2006 when we finished building this bike and my Brother Ian sourced the remote oil filter components for me. All I can tell you is the oil filter base [which the spin on filter element screws onto] is U.S. made and I believe the spin on elements are from a Kawasaki 400 of some kind - I should be able to elaborate quite soon, with any luck.
 The braided pipework and unions etc all came from Earls in the U.K., the quill bolt for the big end feed was drilled and tapped to take the 90 degree union connecting to the filter outlet via a braided hose. The oil filter housing [original] was cut off the timing cover and the original drilling for the big end feed to the bottom of the quill hole was welded up, to close it off. The area around the oil hole coming from the feed pump into the original filter housing was built up with alloy weld, as it is quite thin, then drilled out part way and tapped out to accept another union connecting to the filter inlet via another length of braided hose.
 When I change a filter [they are non return types, so there is no syphoning back when the engine is stopped], I remove both hose ends and purge and fill the new filter from an oil can, a simple operation which ensures the big end gets oil as soon as the engine starts. It also just about eliminates any chances of wet sumping, as the filter is located above the gearbox and therefore above the oil level in the 'tank'.
 I would think it should be possible to convert a Bullet in a similar way without cutting the filter housing off the timing cover, but the plumbing would have to be altered accordingly.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 05:19:17 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2013, 01:05:31 PM »
Just asked my Brother, Ian about the components and he says the spin on element is for a Honda CBR 600, as this has the built in non return which the Kawasaki type did not, apparently. The platform the filter element spins onto also came from Earls, as did the pipework, mentioned above.
 B.W.

High On Octane

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2013, 03:28:32 PM »
Thanks Bullet Whisperer!

ACE - Do you know if it's possible to tap into my 700cc case/cover to install the external filter in the same fashion that B.W. did?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Oil Cooler
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2013, 03:43:45 PM »
Thanks Bullet Whisperer!

ACE - Do you know if it's possible to tap into my 700cc case/cover to install the external filter in the same fashion that B.W. did?

Scottie
Scottie,
Yes, your engine has the same system of oil pumps, quill bolt, and oil filter housing, just like the Bullet has.
Even though I have not inspected the drillings of the Trailblazer timing cover, I suspect that they are the same as the Bullet.
I would recommend using a long pipe cleaner pushed thru all the drillings to verify their locations and routes before proceeding.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/