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Author Topic: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...  (Read 3569 times)

mattsz

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Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« on: May 01, 2013, 10:55:03 PM »
I installed my new Hagons today - they look awesome!

They look awesome - I have no idea how they ride, because the left-side swing-arm shock mounting bolt broke off while I was tightening the acorn nut.

I gotta tell you guys… I owned and maintained a 1968 Triumph TR-250 for about 8 years.  One time, faulty parts led to my having to remove the transmission, replace the clutch, and reinstall the transmission… alone… twice in one day.  I never broke anything - and I never owned a torque wrench.  I know it's a poor mechanic who blames his tools, but I'm beginning to rue the day I bought that damn thing.

The torque spec calls for 40 N/M, or 29.5 ft-lbs; the threads were dry.  I hit just over 20, and twisted the stud right off.  It broke right where the threads enter the nut, not at the swing arm plate.

So based on my inspection of the bike, and my parts manual, let's see… crap.  It looks like this thing is permanently attached to the swing arm, so this means…  I guess I won't be fixing this thing myself.  Oh well, the weather is finally dry and warm, so who wants to be riding anyway?

How do I fix this?

And, as an aside, why not use a through-bolt there, rather than a permanent stud - because the shock bushing isn't supported on both sides, like at the top?

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 11:02:26 PM »
Ugh!  Sorry for your bad luck.

If you can grind it off and drill on the center of where it used to be you could put a bolt in, at least temporarily.  Make sure there's enough room for the bolt head behind the plate before you try that. 

Long term, you need a new swingarm or you need to get a new stud welded on the current one.  If you get it welded with the swingarm still on the bike, disconnect both battery cables and I'd say take the ECU out and put it in a static bag.  You don't want high voltage to fry the electronics.  If you've already got the rear wheel and brake/sprocket off taking the swingarm off is pretty easy, just the pivot bolt and it drops out.

Check with the dealer and see if they'll get a new swingarm under warrantee.  If  not, I'd remove it and just take it to a welder for repair.

Scott
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 11:12:48 PM by Ducati Scotty »

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 02:25:23 AM »
30 views as I write this - "this guy again..."

Scott - Any suggestions or advice about welding?  I am guessing that welding a new stud would be cheaper than a new swing arm, but I don't know much about it and I'd love some advice about what to ask for when I inquire at my local shops.  It looks like the original stud might have some sort of shoulder, and be inserted through a hole from the inside of the swing-arm plate before welding, sort of like you suggested with the temporary replacement bolt.  Should I be trying to replicate that, or will somebody just try to grind the outside of the plate smooth and then weld the flat end of a stud to the outside of the plate?  I can't imagine that would be very strong... but what do I know?

As for warranty, after my fuel tank fiasco, I wouldn't be surprised if CMW washes their hands of me, but I suppose I'll have to ask - like I said, I really was simply trying to follow the specs.

Does the fact that the stud broke right at the base of the acorn nut suggest anything?

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2013, 04:53:57 AM »
Mattz - Sorry to hear your bad luck.   :(   It's possible you had it cross threaded and just didn't realize it, it happens to the best of us at times.  It's also very possible it was just poor quality metal and riding had weakened it.  It's tough to say, what's important is getting it fixed and not giving up.  It may seem like a disaster, but it's not as bad as you think.  If you pull the swing arm off (which isn't too difficult) any local welding shop, body shop or custom shop should be able to weld a new stud on there for $20-$40 and have it done in a day.  Don't worry about it's strength, it's how they do it in the factory too.  Throw a little rattle can paint on it to cover the bare metal and get riding again.  Actually, if you have the right body shop do it, you could probably have it welded AND repainted for around $150ish...

As the Marines say, Adapt And Overcome.    :)

Scottie
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Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2013, 04:59:59 AM »
Hi Mattsz,  Man what a hassle,  :( sorry about your saga, I am receiving my Hagons tomorrow from Dave Quinn, I will be careful during installation.
I'm surprised that the bolt snapped off, I have replaced the shocks on my bike 2 times, and it was kinda difficult, but I'm glad i didn't have that issue, I'm sure you will get this resolved soon and get to riding again very soon. :)
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BRADEY

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2013, 05:31:33 AM »
A though-bolt may not be as good an idea
as welding a new better quality metal stud.
It's just a matter of chance it broke, usually
these hold very well.........

Best,

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2013, 05:41:28 AM »
Scottie J has it right: pull the swingarm and take it to a welder.  It's pretty easy to take off and getting it welded is the best way to repair it.  Any decent welder should be able to do it with adequate strength.  Just make sure the shock fits over the stud before you take it home.

Of course ask if they'll warranty it, but I'd rather just get it back on the road sooner ;)

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 10:25:16 AM »
Thanks guys!

@Scottie J - I didn't cross thread the nut.  It spun right on to finger tight.  And... give up?  :o  Are you kidding?  ;)  I wanna get this thing back on the road ASAP!  But I also want to get it done the right way, which is why I'm asking here about what to expect, and what to ask for, at the shop.

@Bulletman - Sh!t happens.  I seem to have an inverse reaction to stuff - little, inconsequential things (like kicking over my oil collection pan) can get me riled, but with bigger things (like this), I seem to just shrug and say, "oh well - now what?"  I'm sure this has saved a few musical instruments from the wood stove.

@Scott, and all - is it better to remove the swing arm, or is it better to leave it on the bike?  I imagine if I leave it on, the welder can be sure of the correct alignment of the new stud?

Like I said, I have no idea if the way to go is simply to grind the old one off and tack a new stud on the flat, or to drill the plate and pass something through before welding...

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 01:52:45 PM »
Mattz - Definitely have it welded.  A bolt through the plate would hold it temporarily if you broke down in the middle of no where, but I think it would oval out the hole in a fairly short period of time due to how the stress is forced up and down on those studs.  And remove the swing arm to have it welded, otherwise you will end up with splatter all over the rest of the paint job.  And any competent welder can measure what you already have on the good side and match it up to side that needs to be replaced.

Scottie
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 01:58:53 PM »
Remove it.  The arc welder can't fry your electronics and you don't need a pickup truck to haul it.  Alignment?  Ha!  Just put it where it was.  Mine are about 1/2" different, I discovered this when changing my shocks.  You'll be fine ;)

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 04:13:25 PM »
Alignment?  Ha!  Just put it where it was.  Mine are about 1/2" different, I discovered this when changing my shocks.  You'll be fine ;)

I was thinking more about having the stud parallel to the top mount - if the angle is a little off, I'll be stressing something trying to mount the shock.  Anyway...

Thanks guys - I've got a line on two or three shops near me that come recommended, plus a buddy who says if I bring just the swing arm, he can TIG weld a new stud on.  I'm wary of the friendly freebies in cases like this, but he does seem to know his stuff... builds and rebuilds his own BMW's and Guzzi's (and not the same ones over and over!  ;) )

barenekd

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 04:46:47 PM »
Quote
I have replaced the shocks on my bike 2 times, and it was kinda difficult,

Not quite sure how replacing shocks can be difficult. You should be able to do the jobs easily in 15 minutes. particularly the second time!
How to Replace Shocks. Assuming the new shocks are about the same length as the original ones, place the bike on the center stand. Remove one shock. Install one new shock in its stead. Put the shock on the bottom stud first, then rotate it into alignment with the top bolt hole. The new shock should be very close with hole alignment,  but might require a bit of nudging with a screwdriver or punch stuck in the hole to pry the shock into alignment. Install the bolt.
Remove the other shock, repeat. If the shocks require spacers, test fit the new ones before installing to make sure you are using the right ones.
If you are using a different length of shock, you'll need a way to jack the wheel up or down to align the holes. A long board under the rear wheel should allow you the necessary leverage to adjust the height and align the bolt holes.

As for Mattsz problem, You can either remove the stud yourself by cutting fo the remainder of it down to the mount witha hacksaw, or if you have a grinder you can grind it off. Yu might even be able to twist it of with a pair of vice grips! Once it's down to that point, drill out the rest of it with a proper size drill so a new bolt, the same thread and length of theoriginal stud will pass through the mount. Get a metric bolt of the same size, grade 8, if possible, and take the swingarm to a welder. He can tack it back on. If you do the preliminary work, it can save you a bunch of money.
As for swingarm removal, remove the rear wheel and brake, remove the other shock, then remove the pivot bolt for the swing arm. Pull the swingarm out through the chain. That's it. Don't forget to slide it through the chain on reinstallation.
Bare
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 06:18:39 PM by barenekd »
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2013, 05:13:18 PM »
Don't worry too much about the alignment.  You can leave the old stud in to show them where it should be or go with Bare and do the preliminary work yourself.  Honestly, for a good welder this is a trivial job.  I think you do want the weld at the base on the outside ground down so the shock sits flush, check the original to be sure.

Don't forget to grease the swingarm pivot bolt when you put it back in.

Scott

Craig McClure

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2013, 05:27:05 PM »
Here is what I would do: Grind or hacksaw it off. Find A CARRIAGE BOLT the right size & length, + a pretty acorn nut-from a good hardware store. Drill an appropriate size hole, then with a small file square off the hole to accept the square base of the CARRIAGE BOLT use a washer on both sides of the shock that will cover the rubber bushings, tighten after using blue LOCKTITE, & forget about it. Some older bikes were actually made this way.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2013, 06:13:34 PM »
Again, thanks guys!

It looks to me like the original is a stud without any head at all, just stuck through a hole and welded.  There's a good 2 inches of clearance between the inside of the swing arm plate and the wheel (it's the left side), so plenty of room even to drill the old one out and weld a bolt, leaving the head on.

Bare, thanks for all the tips - you must think I'm a basket case!

FWIW, the fender on my B5 prevented removal of my upper bolts - I had to tilt the fender up.

Craig, I imagine that your suggestion would work just fine, but I don't have the nerve.  Anyway, the only carriage bolts we have around here are galvanized, for building decks - no thanks.   Besides, I know I guy I trust with this job who will work for beer, and I'll learn something from him in the bargain!  I won't let him drink any until after the job is done... ;)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 06:34:12 PM »
If you can leave the head on that's golden.  that way you don't need a big chunky weld bead where the shock seats.  I suspect you'll have it sorted soon ;)
 
Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 09:46:07 PM »
FYI, Tim at CMW (NFG) tells me that a new swing arm is available, but must be ordered through a dealer.  Cost: $120.33.

Now I know how much not to pay for the repair!   ;)

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 09:49:41 PM »
Good data point :)

wildbill

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 11:57:11 PM »
even if you were prepared to pay the money for the swing arm. next questions
- is it in stock or how long must i wait?
your now into good riding weather so make the most of it - lets ride!  ;D

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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2013, 12:00:46 AM »
I agree - just covering my bases and doing my research.  I hope to pull the swing arm on Sunday, and deliver it on Monday...

Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2013, 02:25:32 AM »
Mattsz -  gotta tell you guys… I owned and maintained a 1968 Triumph TR-250 for about 8 years.  One time, faulty parts led to my having to remove the transmission, replace the clutch, and reinstall the transmission… alone… twice in one day.  I never broke anything - and I never owned a torque wrench.  I know it's a poor mechanic who blames his tools, but I'm beginning to rue the day I bought that damn thing.

Mattsz..
I never owned a Torque wrench ever, I just put my hagons on and tried to use my "BRAND NEW" ##$$%%^  TORQUE wrench...and broke the #$#@^&  Swingarm bolt, just like you did... >:(
I very calmly  ;) put the bike back in the garage and now am contemplating my next step....
Cheers
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Mark F   (Northern, CA)
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Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2013, 02:56:01 AM »
Not quite sure how replacing shocks can be difficult. You should be able to do the jobs easily in 15 minutes. particularly the second time!
As for swingarm removal, remove the rear wheel and brake, remove the other shock, then remove the pivot bolt for the swing arm. Pull the swingarm out through the chain. That's it. Don't forget to slide it through the chain on reinstallation.
Bare
Bare, being a novice mechanic, Is this a long process, will a newbee like myself be able to do this ? I do have skills, but not a lot without help  :D,  is this fairly easy to do. I recall seeing every single one of Singh5 videos and believe that this should be a fairly easy task... ( I just managed to break the swingarm bolt a few minutes ago while replacing my Shocks ) :(
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High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2013, 05:07:18 AM »
Mattsz - Have your buddy weld it for beer exactly how you described with the head of the bolt and weld the head on the inside part (tire side) of the plate.  Spray a little rattle can paint on there and call it good.  After another 100 miles you won't even think about it anymore.

Scottie
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2013, 10:01:46 AM »
Hey Bulletman -

Based on my observations, and Bare's description, it should be an easy job, provided I don't break anything else!  I'm going to remove the swing arm, locate a proper bolt, and my guy plans to remove the old stud, probably by cutting and grinding it flat, followed by drilling out, insert the bolt with head attached, and TIG weld it at the head, on the inner side of the plate.  I'll post it all here, or maybe start a new thread with a proper name for posterity.  Anyway, stay tuned...

Just about everyone I communicate with on this says they only use a torque wrench for critical engine adjustments - and I can see why.  It helps to have a feel for how tight is tight enough, which I think I'm better at using a "regular-sized" tool instead of the longer, flexible torque wrench.  That said, the shock bolt is only, what, 10mm?  30 ft-lbs seems kinda high...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2013, 10:10:05 AM »
+1, I hate using a long torque wrench.  I don't know what it's supposed to feel like.  Also, anything under 20ft-lbs I use my smaller inch pound torque wrench.

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2013, 12:10:42 PM »
Bulletman - I was up early, so I decided to have at it.

The swing arm removal was straightforward and easy.  It took me 1-1/2 hours from complete start to complete finish, including repositioning my bike in the garage, gathering my tools, doing the job while taking notes and photographing things, and cleaning up and putting my tools away again.

Actually, this is handy ( :o ) - while I'm at this point, and waiting for the welding to be done, I'll change out my rear tire to the K70, and replace my chain and sprocket.  Do I have to drain the oil from the sump to remove the right-side engine cover, or can I just pull it and replace just what I lose in the process?

Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2013, 01:21:27 PM »
Bulletman - I was up early, so I decided to have at it.

The swing arm removal was straightforward and easy.  It took me 1-1/2 hours from complete start to complete finish, including repositioning my bike in the garage, gathering my tools, doing the job while taking notes and photographing things, and cleaning up and putting my tools away again.

Actually, this is handy ( :o ) - while I'm at this point, and waiting for the welding to be done, I'll change out my rear tire to the K70, and replace my chain and sprocket.  Do I have to drain the oil from the sump to remove the right-side engine cover, or can I just pull it and replace just what I lose in the process?
Matt,
Please post pictures (when you can) and if possible step by step " detail" :-[ on how to get the swing arm off....
I am under the weather, but If i get the details I will attempt to take off the swing arm this morning (its 6.15 Am, California time) and get this issue resolved. Please post info on the size, type and length and if necessary the strength of the "bolt" you are going to use and the "type" of welding (tig, mig...) that was done...You will have to forgive my questions as i'm not well versed with the terms. thanks again to all. at least I don't feel alone in this project.
Cheers
Mark
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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2013, 01:38:26 PM »
Bulletman - I was up early, so I decided to have at it.

Actually, this is handy ( :o ) - while I'm at this point, and waiting for the welding to be done, I'll change out my rear tire to the K70, and replace my chain and sprocket.  Do I have to drain the oil from the sump to remove the right-side engine cover, or can I just pull it and replace just what I lose in the process?

Yes - drain the oil. Place a pan underneath to collect oil that will come out.

Hope your bike gets fixed and up and running quickly.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 01:48:08 PM by singhg5 »
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2013, 02:34:45 PM »

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2013, 03:22:27 PM »
Bare - FWIW, my welder thought it looked like the stud might be threaded into the swing arm plate; he tried to twist the broken stud out using vice-grips.  He chowdered it up pretty well, but it didn't budge...

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2013, 05:39:16 PM »
Yes - drain the oil. Place a pan underneath to collect oil that will come out.

Don't bother.  I just did mine on the side stand without draining.  It only dripped a couple of ounces so I just topped it off when I was all back together.  Keep the drain pan there while you're working.

Scott

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2013, 06:58:55 PM »
It's OK to screw up a bad part worse. It was broken anyway. Just means he'll have to drill it out. No biggie.
Nice photo layout you did. That is a big step in becoming a great mechanic. Now you now how to do a Service manual! Congrats!!
As for changing the sprocket, drain the oil the normal way so you won't have so much  coming out of the crankcase cover seam. If it's fresh oil in there, there's nothing wrong with keeping it in a clean container and reusing it.
I hope you have the necessary socket for the countershaft nut! 46mm. Plan on it being tight!
As for the stud breaking, were the threads dry (no oil or loctite) when you were torquing it? If they weren't dry them you can overtorque it easily because of the lack of resistance on the threads. Make sure, using a torque wrench, that the threads are dry! You kinda have to guess if your have them lubed. Some mechanic's tricks are learned purely by experience.
Bare
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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2013, 07:11:47 PM »
1 13/16" also works well, it's something like 42.01mm and SAE sockets that large are about half the price of metric.

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2013, 07:51:08 PM »
Bare - the stud was dry.  I learned about adjusting torque values with lubricated threads... right here on this forum.  And, I wasn't worried about mucking up the broken stud - I just thought I'd let you know about it since you suggested that it might turn out or break off with the vice-grips.

Sprocket change:  The bike is on its center stand, and of course there's no rear wheel mounted, so I can't use the side stand.  I'll just drain the oil, it's easy.

But... can I leave the oil filter in place?

I have the Harbor Freight giganta-socket set, which as I understand it has the correct size.  Not sure yet what I'll do if I can't get the nut off without an impact wrench.  But I'm in no hurry...

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2013, 07:54:42 PM »
Unless you have an impact wrench there's no way to keep the sprocket from turning when you try to remove the nut.  With the chain on and the rear brake cranked down it won't spin.  If you have an impact just putting the bike in gear should be good enough.

Scott
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 08:51:28 PM by Ducati Scotty »

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2013, 08:01:20 PM »
Well, in that case, I'll see if my car-guy neighbor has something, or else I'll wait until I put the swing arm and wheel back on...

barenekd

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2013, 08:43:24 PM »
You can always shove a block of wood between the sprocket and case. Do put it in 1st gear though. That'll add a bit more drag to the equation. If you wait until you get the swing arm back on then you can put the bike on the side stand and pull the case side off without losing much oil. Be careful, you may need to lean it over a bit more.
The socket set as the right socket in it.
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The_Rigger

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2013, 08:51:49 PM »
Get a metric bolt of the same size, grade 8, if possible, and take the swingarm to a welder.

I don't know as I'd use a Grade 8 bolt over a Grade 5; the Grade 8 is certainly stronger in tension and compression than the Grade 5 fastener, but it's also more brittle, due to the hardening process, and therefore could be weaker *in shear*, and shear strength is more what you'd want in a shock mounting stud or bolt, wouldn't it?  Grade 8 bolts would snap from shock-loading before a Grade 5 would, due to the brittleness - that's why I am required to use Grade 5 fasteners in lieu of Grade 8s when building and installing overhead rigging systems in theatres (my day job, when I'm not touring with a given show).

I am also leary of applying welding-level heat to a Grade 8 bolt... I suppose it depends on whether the Weldor lets the completed weld air-cool, or if he oil-quenches or water-quenches the weld.  In any case, the hardening process that makes a hardened fastener "hardened" could be partially or completely undone by the weld.

Just pondering things, here...  Don't mind me... Certainly worth considering, though.
-Dave
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2013, 08:54:43 PM »
Ok, how long are we gonna talk about this?  We're like a bunch of little old ladies or something.  Matt, get to the welder already! ;)

1 Thump

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2013, 09:29:33 PM »
Royal Enfield: Making mechanics out of men, one bolt at a time!

Aint that the truth brothers ?

Gypsyjon

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2013, 09:54:32 PM »
I amliking my stock shocks better all the time....
I've gone back to my roots. British 1 lunger, stump puller.

Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2013, 10:48:18 PM »
@Mattsz--Great Job with the pictures... here is my progress report.
I made a lot of phone calls (started 9.30 AM California time) got done in 30 minutes with the calls. Found a place that would give me the Metric bolt of the same size, length and pitch, (i bought 2, cost $4.50 including the nuts)
I proceeded to take the swing arm off, and surprised myself by doing the process in 30 minutes. (Matts pics did help).
Took the swingarm to the Bolt place to maje sure I was getting the right size and all... ;)
There was a welding place across the street ;D
Talked to the welder guy, we sat and pondered a bit  ;D
Decided to grind off the bolt, then figured maybe we could hammer out the stud side of the bolt which was on the tire side of the swing arm.....lo and behold it popped out.. all I the welder had to do was weld the bolt in, then we put 2 washers on the outside of the swing arm bolt, the protruding side and welded those on, then we were set to go.
the whole thing including the bolts (Grade 8 ) and nuts, the welding and prep work which took about an Hour, cost me a total of $34.50. :)
Thank you guys once again for all the help. ( tomorrow, I will put it all back together )
Cheers
Mark
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2013, 10:56:30 PM »
Now that's what I'm talking about!  Less yackin', more hackin'!

But I reserve the right to retract that statement should your repair fail on its maiden voyage.   :P

Scott

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2013, 11:37:16 PM »
i'd like to see you get a welder here for that total  ;) i bet it would be $50 before he sticks it and after that -how much he could get out of you.
great deal and a great fix. ride on and all the best.
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »
Sounds great Bulletman!  You're way ahead of me.  I'm waiting for my welder now, but he's got a day job, and he's sick.  He promised no more than $30 for the job, so that sounds about right... @Wildbill, in an area with so few commercial shops, you often have to spend more time searching for these guys, but often the cost ends up being less.  I do have to paint the end result myself, though...  ;D

My guy says he's got so many studs and bolts of all shapes, sizes and grades around that he's certain he'll have what he needs, but just in case I need to buy one - what size bolts did you end up getting?

Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2013, 04:24:26 PM »
My guy says he's got so many studs and bolts of all shapes, sizes and grades around that he's certain he'll have what he needs, but just in case I need to buy one - what size bolts did you end up getting?
Matt, follows the  size:
the Metric version is:
M-10 (Fine Thread) x 1.25 Pitch, with a grade 10.9 Metric which should be a grade 8 in US measurements. I got this at a Huge Tractor & Farm  supplier here in CA. Fastenal also had them in stock, but wanted me to buy a minimum bag of 25 Nuts and a bag of 25 Bolts for about $45.00... :(
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2013, 06:29:37 PM »
Well, here's an interesting development: my swing arm studs, and the top mount bolts, aren't 10 mm diameter.  My machinist discovered this when he measured the broken stud.  I have my dial caliper and everything else before me: OEM top bolt, .368" (9.35mm).  OEM stud, .373" (9.47mm).  Maybe it's meant to be 9mm?  But since none of us here has ever come across such a thing, we weren't sure.  The thread is a perfect metric 1.25 pitch.

In the end, he decided the prudent thing was to match the three existing fasteners as best he could, so he welded on a 3/8" bolt, which measures .370" (9.40mm) and splits the difference.  The only thing is, it's a different thread, but who cares, I suppose.

I ordered 10 mm bushings for my Hagon shocks (based on the recommendation of others here on the forum who have all ordered 10 mm bushings, and of Dave Quinn).  The Hagons are loose.  Looser than the OEM shocks, as you might imagine.  Just for grins, I tried a new 10mm bolt in the 10mm bushings for size, and it's a perfect fit.  I measured my OEM shock bushings: they have an ID of .379", or 9.63mm.  The new 10mm bushed Hagon bushings have an ID of .393", or 9.98mm.  I didn't measure the 10mm bolt, nor did I test fit it in the OEM shock, but the fit on the Hagon was so close, I kind of doubt it would have fit the smaller OEM bushing, but I don't know.

I'm not sure what-all is going on with all these measurements, but in a nutshell, all of my shock mounting hardware is about the same size - only it's not 10mm.  It's all about 20 thou smaller than the bushings.

My guy wiggled the fit-together parts a bit before suggesting that I wasn't setting up a race bike, and if it were his, he'd just put it back together and forget about it.

The repair is done, and I think he did the right thing by matching the existing sizes.  But now I have to decide about whether to worry about the bushings.  Since Dave Quinn only offers 8mm and 10mm bushings, maybe I should follow my guy's advice and just ride the darn thing.

Is a 10mm bushing on a 9.4mm stud too loose?  Any thoughts or advice? 

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2013, 06:33:43 PM »
I'm guessing mine were the same size as yours and I haven't had any issues, nor has anyone else.  I'm guessing you'll be just fine.  Make sure you get a nice chromed acron nut for the new 3/8" stud, don't want a bare end sticking out.

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2013, 07:04:11 PM »
Not a perfect match, but who's counting?


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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2013, 08:13:32 PM »
Looks good to me :)

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2013, 09:09:19 PM »
It seems 3/8-20, which is what these shock bolts seem to be, is not an uncommon British size - could it be a holdover?

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2013, 09:11:55 PM »
Maybe.  I know the swingarm pivot bolt is 12.5mm, which I've never heard of but is the same as 1/2".  Could be they didn't want to re-engineer the rest of the parts.

Scott

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2013, 10:34:38 PM »
I'm not sure how strong your chrome nuts are but if your mechanic torqued them to something around 18-20 ft/lbs they should be OK.

At that torque each nut will be developing about 3000+ pounds of pressure or squeeze on the end of the shock.  It won't be moving around or going anywhere so just ride your bike and enjoy. :)
Jim
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
Well, Jim, my mechanic is me, which probably explains why it broke in the first place!  I'll not be following the manual torque specs for the shocks from now on...

Gotta paint the weld spot, and re-assemble!

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2013, 11:27:23 PM »
Well, Jim, my mechanic is me, which probably explains why it broke in the first place!  I'll not be following the manual torque specs for the shocks from now on...

Gotta paint the weld spot, and re-assemble!

Awesome!  Glad you got it squared away with minimal headache.  Way To Go Matt!!!    :D

Scottie
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2013, 11:25:50 AM »
Ready to paint the swing arm plate.  I've got two paint issues going in two threads, so I've posted question here:

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,16407.0.html

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2013, 10:19:21 PM »
Swing arm all repaired and painted - no pics (yet), but it really did happen!  Will let the paint dry for a couple of days before I reinstall it - I start my 7-day, 12-hour-a-day work week tomorrow anyway, and the weather is supposed to turn sour through the weekend...

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2013, 12:27:08 AM »
Finished.  Swing arm, with new Hagon shocks (and K70 rear tire!), installed:



Thanks, as usual, for all your help, guys!  I haven't taken a ride yet, since I am again, momentarily, without a fuel tank on the bike. 

Bulletman, what's your status?

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2013, 01:17:53 AM »
Awesome job Matt!  I told you that you wouldn't even be able too tell when you were done.  ;)  Way to stick with it, it came out great.

Scottie
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mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2013, 01:20:20 AM »
I told you that you wouldn't even be able too tell when you were done.  ;) 

WRONG, Scottie - I have a much cooler-looking acorn nut on the repair side! ;D

Seriously - thanks a bunch!

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2013, 02:04:05 AM »
WRONG, Scottie - I have a much cooler-looking acorn nut on the repair side! ;D

Seriously - thanks a bunch!

LMAO!  You got me there.   ;)   No problem bud!

Scottie
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Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2013, 02:16:58 AM »
Finished.  Swing arm, with new Hagon shocks (and K70 rear tire!), installed:



Thanks, as usual, for all your help, guys!  I haven't taken a ride yet, since I am again, momentarily, without a fuel tank on the bike. 

Bulletman, what's your status?
Hey Matt, I was done a few days ago, Its all put together along with the New Hagons, Man she handles really well...Im very impressed..I have a new post going on about the Front Wheel Wobble Going on after the install..Scottie wrote up a awesome piece on it..its on the forum a few tags back under Wobble..the next step is to check alignment since the swingarm job...I will be free to do some of that in a few days...I am glad you are done matt.
Cheers
Mark
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2013, 01:31:33 PM »
Very nicely done Matt :)  Sorry for all the drama.

Scott

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »
Thanks, Scott - it's all part of the experience!  I'm learning a lot...

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2013, 11:01:49 PM »
So did the cause of these post breaking end up being over torquing in both cases

Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2013, 12:41:29 AM »
So did the cause of these post breaking end up being over torquing in both cases
In my case Thats a Yes..and in Matts Case I know he will speak for himself but the answer is yes....be very careful when torquing ! the specs in the manual are wrong
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