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Author Topic: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...  (Read 2126 times)

mattsz

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Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« on: May 01, 2013, 05:55:03 PM »
I installed my new Hagons today - they look awesome!

They look awesome - I have no idea how they ride, because the left-side swing-arm shock mounting bolt broke off while I was tightening the acorn nut.

I gotta tell you guys… I owned and maintained a 1968 Triumph TR-250 for about 8 years.  One time, faulty parts led to my having to remove the transmission, replace the clutch, and reinstall the transmission… alone… twice in one day.  I never broke anything - and I never owned a torque wrench.  I know it's a poor mechanic who blames his tools, but I'm beginning to rue the day I bought that damn thing.

The torque spec calls for 40 N/M, or 29.5 ft-lbs; the threads were dry.  I hit just over 20, and twisted the stud right off.  It broke right where the threads enter the nut, not at the swing arm plate.

So based on my inspection of the bike, and my parts manual, let's see… crap.  It looks like this thing is permanently attached to the swing arm, so this means…  I guess I won't be fixing this thing myself.  Oh well, the weather is finally dry and warm, so who wants to be riding anyway?

How do I fix this?

And, as an aside, why not use a through-bolt there, rather than a permanent stud - because the shock bushing isn't supported on both sides, like at the top?

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2013, 06:02:26 PM »
Ugh!  Sorry for your bad luck.

If you can grind it off and drill on the center of where it used to be you could put a bolt in, at least temporarily.  Make sure there's enough room for the bolt head behind the plate before you try that. 

Long term, you need a new swingarm or you need to get a new stud welded on the current one.  If you get it welded with the swingarm still on the bike, disconnect both battery cables and I'd say take the ECU out and put it in a static bag.  You don't want high voltage to fry the electronics.  If you've already got the rear wheel and brake/sprocket off taking the swingarm off is pretty easy, just the pivot bolt and it drops out.

Check with the dealer and see if they'll get a new swingarm under warrantee.  If  not, I'd remove it and just take it to a welder for repair.

Scott
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:12:48 PM by Ducati Scotty »

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 09:25:23 PM »
30 views as I write this - "this guy again..."

Scott - Any suggestions or advice about welding?  I am guessing that welding a new stud would be cheaper than a new swing arm, but I don't know much about it and I'd love some advice about what to ask for when I inquire at my local shops.  It looks like the original stud might have some sort of shoulder, and be inserted through a hole from the inside of the swing-arm plate before welding, sort of like you suggested with the temporary replacement bolt.  Should I be trying to replicate that, or will somebody just try to grind the outside of the plate smooth and then weld the flat end of a stud to the outside of the plate?  I can't imagine that would be very strong... but what do I know?

As for warranty, after my fuel tank fiasco, I wouldn't be surprised if CMW washes their hands of me, but I suppose I'll have to ask - like I said, I really was simply trying to follow the specs.

Does the fact that the stud broke right at the base of the acorn nut suggest anything?

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 11:53:57 PM »
Mattz - Sorry to hear your bad luck.   :(   It's possible you had it cross threaded and just didn't realize it, it happens to the best of us at times.  It's also very possible it was just poor quality metal and riding had weakened it.  It's tough to say, what's important is getting it fixed and not giving up.  It may seem like a disaster, but it's not as bad as you think.  If you pull the swing arm off (which isn't too difficult) any local welding shop, body shop or custom shop should be able to weld a new stud on there for $20-$40 and have it done in a day.  Don't worry about it's strength, it's how they do it in the factory too.  Throw a little rattle can paint on it to cover the bare metal and get riding again.  Actually, if you have the right body shop do it, you could probably have it welded AND repainted for around $150ish...

As the Marines say, Adapt And Overcome.    :)

Scottie


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Bulletman

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 11:59:59 PM »
Hi Mattsz,  Man what a hassle,  :( sorry about your saga, I am receiving my Hagons tomorrow from Dave Quinn, I will be careful during installation.
I'm surprised that the bolt snapped off, I have replaced the shocks on my bike 2 times, and it was kinda difficult, but I'm glad i didn't have that issue, I'm sure you will get this resolved soon and get to riding again very soon. :)
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BRADEY

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2013, 12:31:33 AM »
A though-bolt may not be as good an idea
as welding a new better quality metal stud.
It's just a matter of chance it broke, usually
these hold very well.........

Best,

Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2013, 12:41:28 AM »
Scottie J has it right: pull the swingarm and take it to a welder.  It's pretty easy to take off and getting it welded is the best way to repair it.  Any decent welder should be able to do it with adequate strength.  Just make sure the shock fits over the stud before you take it home.

Of course ask if they'll warranty it, but I'd rather just get it back on the road sooner ;)

Scott

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 05:25:16 AM »
Thanks guys!

@Scottie J - I didn't cross thread the nut.  It spun right on to finger tight.  And... give up?  :o  Are you kidding?  ;)  I wanna get this thing back on the road ASAP!  But I also want to get it done the right way, which is why I'm asking here about what to expect, and what to ask for, at the shop.

@Bulletman - Sh!t happens.  I seem to have an inverse reaction to stuff - little, inconsequential things (like kicking over my oil collection pan) can get me riled, but with bigger things (like this), I seem to just shrug and say, "oh well - now what?"  I'm sure this has saved a few musical instruments from the wood stove.

@Scott, and all - is it better to remove the swing arm, or is it better to leave it on the bike?  I imagine if I leave it on, the welder can be sure of the correct alignment of the new stud?

Like I said, I have no idea if the way to go is simply to grind the old one off and tack a new stud on the flat, or to drill the plate and pass something through before welding...

High On Octane

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 08:52:45 AM »
Mattz - Definitely have it welded.  A bolt through the plate would hold it temporarily if you broke down in the middle of no where, but I think it would oval out the hole in a fairly short period of time due to how the stress is forced up and down on those studs.  And remove the swing arm to have it welded, otherwise you will end up with splatter all over the rest of the paint job.  And any competent welder can measure what you already have on the good side and match it up to side that needs to be replaced.

Scottie


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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 08:58:53 AM »
Remove it.  The arc welder can't fry your electronics and you don't need a pickup truck to haul it.  Alignment?  Ha!  Just put it where it was.  Mine are about 1/2" different, I discovered this when changing my shocks.  You'll be fine ;)

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 11:13:25 AM »
Alignment?  Ha!  Just put it where it was.  Mine are about 1/2" different, I discovered this when changing my shocks.  You'll be fine ;)

I was thinking more about having the stud parallel to the top mount - if the angle is a little off, I'll be stressing something trying to mount the shock.  Anyway...

Thanks guys - I've got a line on two or three shops near me that come recommended, plus a buddy who says if I bring just the swing arm, he can TIG weld a new stud on.  I'm wary of the friendly freebies in cases like this, but he does seem to know his stuff... builds and rebuilds his own BMW's and Guzzi's (and not the same ones over and over!  ;) )

barenekd

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 11:46:47 AM »
Quote
I have replaced the shocks on my bike 2 times, and it was kinda difficult,

Not quite sure how replacing shocks can be difficult. You should be able to do the jobs easily in 15 minutes. particularly the second time!
How to Replace Shocks. Assuming the new shocks are about the same length as the original ones, place the bike on the center stand. Remove one shock. Install one new shock in its stead. Put the shock on the bottom stud first, then rotate it into alignment with the top bolt hole. The new shock should be very close with hole alignment,  but might require a bit of nudging with a screwdriver or punch stuck in the hole to pry the shock into alignment. Install the bolt.
Remove the other shock, repeat. If the shocks require spacers, test fit the new ones before installing to make sure you are using the right ones.
If you are using a different length of shock, you'll need a way to jack the wheel up or down to align the holes. A long board under the rear wheel should allow you the necessary leverage to adjust the height and align the bolt holes.

As for Mattsz problem, You can either remove the stud yourself by cutting fo the remainder of it down to the mount witha hacksaw, or if you have a grinder you can grind it off. Yu might even be able to twist it of with a pair of vice grips! Once it's down to that point, drill out the rest of it with a proper size drill so a new bolt, the same thread and length of theoriginal stud will pass through the mount. Get a metric bolt of the same size, grade 8, if possible, and take the swingarm to a welder. He can tack it back on. If you do the preliminary work, it can save you a bunch of money.
As for swingarm removal, remove the rear wheel and brake, remove the other shock, then remove the pivot bolt for the swing arm. Pull the swingarm out through the chain. That's it. Don't forget to slide it through the chain on reinstallation.
Bare
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 01:18:39 PM by barenekd »
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2013, 12:13:18 PM »
Don't worry too much about the alignment.  You can leave the old stud in to show them where it should be or go with Bare and do the preliminary work yourself.  Honestly, for a good welder this is a trivial job.  I think you do want the weld at the base on the outside ground down so the shock sits flush, check the original to be sure.

Don't forget to grease the swingarm pivot bolt when you put it back in.

Scott

Craig McClure

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2013, 12:27:05 PM »
Here is what I would do: Grind or hacksaw it off. Find A CARRIAGE BOLT the right size & length, + a pretty acorn nut-from a good hardware store. Drill an appropriate size hole, then with a small file square off the hole to accept the square base of the CARRIAGE BOLT use a washer on both sides of the shock that will cover the rubber bushings, tighten after using blue LOCKTITE, & forget about it. Some older bikes were actually made this way.
Best Wishes, Craig McClure

mattsz

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Re: Hagon shock installation, my way - uh oh...
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2013, 01:13:34 PM »
Again, thanks guys!

It looks to me like the original is a stud without any head at all, just stuck through a hole and welded.  There's a good 2 inches of clearance between the inside of the swing arm plate and the wheel (it's the left side), so plenty of room even to drill the old one out and weld a bolt, leaving the head on.

Bare, thanks for all the tips - you must think I'm a basket case!

FWIW, the fender on my B5 prevented removal of my upper bolts - I had to tilt the fender up.

Craig, I imagine that your suggestion would work just fine, but I don't have the nerve.  Anyway, the only carriage bolts we have around here are galvanized, for building decks - no thanks.   Besides, I know I guy I trust with this job who will work for beer, and I'll learn something from him in the bargain!  I won't let him drink any until after the job is done... ;)