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Author Topic: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???  (Read 2375 times)

High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 04:41:17 AM »
Stopped at The Bonneville Shop on my way home from work today and picked up a #3 slide to replace the 3 1/2 and also picked up a 230 main jet to replace the 220.  Got home and slapped them in and was having trouble getting it to run right.  I so move the needle from the bottom notch to the middle and was better but idling high.  So I made a timing adjustment of about 2 1/2 degrees retarded and had it running, but it still wasn't running right.  But it's Friday night and I wanted to go to the Friday Night Hot Rod meet.  So I headed down the road, rode around for a bit and then stopped at the meet and hung out for a while and said hi to some friends.  When I went to leave, I damn near couldn't get the bike started.  It was spitting and popping and running like total shit to where I barely made it home.  WTF?!    >:(   "Thanks for making me look bad in front of all the Hot Rodders admiring you.  Stupid bike."  LOL  In all reality, stupid ME.

I get home and pull the plug and it looked like a good clean burn.    ???   Pull the drain on the carb to see if there was dirt, and it was clean.  WTF?????  Come to the conclusion that it's got to be timing.  Thankfully when I timed the bike dead nuts with the light I made timing marks on the rotor and trigger plate for the Thorspark ignition as well.  Get out my handy TDC tool (a section of coat hanger bent over with TDC and 3/8" Before TDC marks) and bring the piston up to 3/8" before TDC, look at the rotor AND I'M LIKE 20 DEGREES RETARDED!    >:( >:( >:(   The stupid auto-advance must of gotten stuck in the advanced position with out me catching it when I made my change, and then after warming it up and riding it and must of returned back to the normal position retarding it the 20 degrees or whatever it was.  Then after hanging out for a while the bike cooled down and when I went to go leave the bike said "screw you dumb ass"  and was just never able to get going fast enough to get the auto-advance to actually move forward.

So I moved the timing back to 3/8" Before TDC, but it was getting too late to be firing up the bike and pissing off the neighbors.  So tomorrow morning I'm going to go back out and play with the carb some more and see where I'm sitting.

ALSO, here's a pic of the spark plug situation.  The plug on the left is an Autolite 85 which crossed over from the Champion that was in there.  The plug on the right is the NGK B6HS that is correct for this motor.  Note the difference in thread length 3/8" compared to 1/2".  I also decided to change to a B5HS as the resister caps have reduced my spark considerably and needed a little more oomph from the plug.



Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2013, 12:22:38 PM »
Keep an eye on that B5HS hotter plug.
"Hotter" heat range does not mean "hotter" spark. All it means is that it is less capable to dissipate heat, and runs at a hotter temperature.
It could cause pre-ignition.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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ERC

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2013, 01:08:38 PM »
Ace is correct, especially if your going for top speed then you probably want a B9ES.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2013, 01:53:06 PM »
So are you guys saying that even though with the B6HS I could barely see a spark forming is irrelevant to how the bike is going to run?

Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2013, 02:08:13 PM »
So are you guys saying that even though with the B6HS I could barely see a spark forming is irrelevant to how the bike is going to run?

Scottie

No, what we're saying is that the B5HS won't be any better because the heat range of the plug has absolutely nothing to do with the intensity of the spark.
If your spark is weak, you need a better coil, or whatever other part of the ignition system is not working properly.
And on top of that, if the heat range is too hot, the plug will run too hot, and potentially be a cause of pre-ignition in your chamber.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 02:11:39 PM by ace.cafe »
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High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2013, 02:38:05 PM »
I had great spark until I installed those stupid resister caps that apparently I have to have to operate the electrical system without damage.  What the hell is the point in those damn things anyways?  Maybe if I understood their role it wouldn't be so frustrating.  I just know I went from a fat blue crackling spark to being almost non-existent.

Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2013, 03:05:02 PM »
I had great spark until I installed those stupid resister caps that apparently I have to have to operate the electrical system without damage.  What the hell is the point in those damn things anyways?  Maybe if I understood their role it wouldn't be so frustrating.  I just know I went from a fat blue crackling spark to being almost non-existent.

Scottie
The purpose of the resistors in the system is to reduce RF interference radiating off the ignition wiring. If you have a computerized igntion system, it is possible that the RF radiation "could" cause it to malfunction. That is why many electronic igntion systems say they require it.

Now, these resistors can cause a weak coil to seem too weak. It is VERY common on Bullets that have the stock Lucas coil, which is known to be a weak coil. It's not unusual for them to be about 25k volts max, which is okay without resistors in the line, but with resistors in the line it gets into marginal territory. With more than one resistor in the line, it might not work hardly at all.
On the other hand, a good Bosch Blue coil will often have nearly 40k volts max, which will easily overcome any of those resistors in the line, and give a nice spark.
There needs to only be one resistor in the line. If you have a resistor wire, you don't need a resister cap or resistor plug. 5000 ohms is the necessary amount, and that is the amount in each one of these resistor "thingies". So, don't stack them, and just have one of them at the most.

Other possibilities could be poor coil charging which could be linked to a faulty or weak condenser in a points system. Or to a weakness in that area with some other forms of electronic triggers. Or, a bad wire or bad connection somewhere. Or even poor alternator charging.

You might try using no resistors, but I have no idea if your electronic ignition system can handle no resistors in the system. It might cause intermittent faults or even failures. I have no experience with that ignition system that you have. I know that the Boyer system wants a resistor, but we have tried without it, and it worked.
So, it's up to you. I can't be sure what will happen with your electronic system.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 03:14:46 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2013, 05:54:17 PM »
WHOOO!!!  SUCCESS!!!

HUGE improvement with the latest changes.  First of all, ice cold and it started on the 1st kick!   :D  After warmed up, I made some minor changes to idle and air screws and now crisp clean throttle response.  Revs like a champ.  Turned on the GPS speedo and headed out.  Man, the acceleration and throttle response is great!  Pulls hard in every gear regardless of speed.  I was even creeping in 4th gear at 25mph and never choked out when I hit the throttle.    ;)

Now for the fun stuff.  Went back out in the country, rolling at 25mph in 2nd gear I started to hammer on it.  Hit 55 in no time!  Pulled really hard until 75mph when I started to lose momentum.  BUT!  I hit 87mph for about a second!  Yeah buddy!  But basically topped out at 85mph.  Though, the bike pulled and felt great at 75mph without the motor working for it.  Upon return I did another test.  This time rolling at 45mph in 4th gear.  It only took 8 seconds to reach 65mph and hit 75mph within 15 seconds.

Conclusion:  The bike pulls great at all speeds and gears, and most importantly, I'm leaving the timing the fuck alone.    8)   The #3 slide and moving the needle to middle position made a huge improvement in idle and low and mid range throttle.  I'm good in that department and won't be making any changes there until I get a another hour or 2 on the bike and I will check the plug again.  Lastly, increasing the main jet from 220 to 230 definitely helped out the WOT and top end speed, but I think I still have room for improvement.  In theory, increasing the the main jet 1 size increased my top speed by 10mph, knowing my bike is capable of at least 95mph with age and altitude (110mph when it was new), I think I might try a 250 main and see where that gets me.

I will keep you updated when I make more changes.  Thanks everyone for you input and help!  I love this forum!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver
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ERC

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2013, 07:11:22 PM »
Was wondering Scottie if it runs after you charge the battery. You mentioned your alternator crapped out could be it will run lousy when the battery goes low and with the ignition you have I think it needs a battery to work properly? Glad it's running well now.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2013, 08:53:56 PM »
The system seems to still be charging slightly at higher RPMs.  The last few time I've come back from a short highway ride the battery had had at least 13v when I shut it down.  Other than the first time it died on me I haven't let the battery drop below 12v and have only ridden about 45 minutes at a time.  The bike actually ran BEAUTIFULLY on  my way into with this morning. 

Scottie
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The Blackhawk
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High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2013, 11:12:43 PM »
So, here's the deal with the alternator.  The last couple times I drove to work, the battery dropped from 12.8-13v upon departure to 12v upon destination.  Though the last few times I jumped on the highway right next to my apartment, when I came back my voltage was about 13.2v      ???    So I topped off the charge at work before I left and headed home, knowing that if I stayed on city streets my voltage would again drop to about 12v by the time I got home.  Rather than taking city streets all the way, I detoured out of town and took the highway (back way) home for about 7 miles.  Got home, killed it, and Viola!  13.46 volts!  So as long as I keep the motor up at, oh say, around 3K RPMs (basically stay in a lower gear) the charging system does seem to be working.  I'll do a run or 2 with the head light plugged back in and see if anything changes.  Regardless, I still need to replace that alternator and rotor, the sooner the better.

I can't wait to have everything dialed in and ready for an actual ride.  Still having a lot of fun just rolling around town.

Scottie
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 11:16:03 PM by Scottie J »
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 06:55:48 AM »
Hi Scottie,
 If it is a Lucas alternator, chances are you have green/white [light green], green/yellow [mid green] and green/black [dark green] wires coming from the alternator. If you have and they are connected to the bike's wiring loom colour to colour, try swapping the mid and dark green wires around - this will give you more charge at lower engine speeds, but no extra charge at higher engine speeds. I suspect, though, that you don't have three separate wires anymore, as you say it is a 12 volt system.
 If you have a Boyer 'Powerbox' fitted, make sure the mid and dark greens are joined together and treated as one wire, the light green being the other, both of which connect to each of the two yellows from the powerbox.
 B.W.

High On Octane

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 04:48:29 PM »
BW - It's the factory 3 wire hexagon stator wired up to a Sparx rectifier/battery eliminator.  I have it wired as you stated (and also the instruction that came with the Sparx) with the 2 darker green wires connected together to 1 yellow wire on the Sparx and the other lighter green wire connected to the other yellow wire.

But while were on the subject...  Does anyone know the difference between Lucas part # LU/47205 and part # LU/47205A???  Hitchcock's told me I need LU/47205A.  Roger at The Bonneville Shop told me he sells the LU/47205 and the rotor.  All I'll need to order from Hitchcock's is the adapter bracket.  That should save me a crap ton of money on shipping from having to have the alternator AND rotor shipped over seas.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 04:59:29 PM »
Hi Scottie,
 I don't know what those different part numbers relate to, but, assuming the rotor you have is a Lucas [or Wipac] and still has strong enough magnetism to support itself and not drop, if you try to lift it by a spanner or screwdriver stuck to it, it should be O.K. - you could consider fitting an Indian Bullet stator, as these are O.K. [the rotors are crap, mind] to get the job done well and for less money than a new Lucas one.
 B.W.

ERC

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Re: Lame Top Speed - Lean Condition???
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 07:14:25 PM »
Same the 47205 is just cheaper than the A. What the bonneville guy said will work.   ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.