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Author Topic: Primary Cover Repair  (Read 1045 times)

High On Octane

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Primary Cover Repair
« on: June 23, 2013, 04:09:12 PM »
I finally tracked down a welder that was willing to fix my primary cover out of his garage and not charge me a fortune.  After contacting several different welding and chopper shops through out the week and being told that they couldn't get to it for at least a couple of weeks, and the only shop that had time wanted to charge $90/hour ( F*@K that sh!t ), I decided to make some phone calls friends.  I got referred to a guy that's an oil rigger and welds at home too.  I gave him a call and he was happy to do it for me.  For $30 and a 6 pack of beer!

I met up at his place yesterday afternoon and quickly learned that it wasn't going to be a 30 minute job like I thought.  But he took his time, did the job right, and I am really happy with the results.  I don't think it's going to be breaking again.  He and his wife even grilled up some burgers and brats and I got lunch out of the deal too!    :D  What is even cooler is that it turns out we grew up 5 miles away from each other in Wisconsin!  We had a good time, drank some beers, and most importantly, got my primary cover fixed right.    :)

 

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Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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ERC

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 07:08:54 PM »
You got the right guy to weld it they break there all the time. You lucked out and have the later cover with the rubber seals also. It seems people tighten the center bolt to much to try and stop leaks.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

bullethead63

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 11:19:32 PM »
I wouldn't even grind and polish the welds...just leave it for strength...nobody will see them when they're installed,anyway...nice work!
1959 Royal Enfield/Indian Chief 700~(RED)~1999 Bullet Deluxe 500 KS~(BLUE)~2000  Bullet Classic 500 KS~(WHITE)~2002 Bullet Classic 500 ES~(GREEN)~Ride-Wrench-Repeat~your results may vary~void where prohibited by law~batteries not included~some restrictions may apply~subject to change without notice~

High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2013, 03:56:09 PM »
I wouldn't even grind and polish the welds...just leave it for strength...nobody will see them when they're installed,anyway...nice work!

I actually told Don exactly that before he even started welding on it!  I'm a very good steel welder myself (you have to be when you're building classic hot rods) but I don't have the experience or equipment to weld aluminum, that's why I called around until I found Don.

I DO HAVE ONE ISSUE THOUGH.....
  After pre-fitting my alternator adapter bracket and alternator, I noticed that the inner cover has seemed to have warped a bit, definitely to the point where it's going to leak a good amount, but no clearance issues.

Here's the questions:
Is the O ring seal that goes around the primary cover actually supposed to fit INSIDE of the grove on the inner cover?  Or is the groove used for alignment and the gasket is supposed to sit on TOP of the groove?

I know a lot of guys grease the primary chain as opposed to running some kind of oil.  Is the clutch safe operating in a dry atmosphere (i.e. will the clutch fail if operated dry)?  I remember after making a primary chain adjustment, I forgot to refill the primary with oil before I went on a ride.  The clutch worked fine and the bike wasn't leaking nearly as much oil as it normally does.

Where does a fellow pick up some 00 grease?

Can I just run a bead of black silicone gasket maker around the outer cover before assembly to fill the small gaps between the metal covers and gasket?

Rather than using 00 grease, can I use chain oil and oil it on a regular basis through the inspection hole?

What I would like to do is, if it is in fact safe to operate the clutch without oil in the primary, I'd like to run a bead of silicone around the cover before assembly and just oil the primary chain with chain oil on a regular basis through the inspection hole.  But being that I still don't know a fair amount about these bikes, I want to make sure that I'm not screwing anything up.  Thanks.

Scottie
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D the D

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 04:46:11 PM »
What clutches are used with the Primary Belt Mod?
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ERC

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2013, 07:51:09 PM »
The o-ring goes into the groove. You could be OK running the clutch dry I think. Spraying the primary chain with some chain lube would work. Don't use oo grease in there.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2013, 09:04:02 PM »
Maybe give the clutch plates a coat 20w50 during reassembly?

What clutches are used with the Primary Belt Mod?

That's what I was thinking D the D.  I know belt drive primarys operate on a dry clutch but I'm not sure if the clutch is made up of a different material.  I also remember seeing a pic of a custom RE that actually had the outer primary cover artistically cut with the clutch basket exposed.  He obviously wasn't running any oil in there.  And even when you think about it, if the chain originally was addressed with grease, then there wasn't a whole lot of oil on the clutch in 1st place.  I'm thinking I'm probably OK.

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barenekd

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2013, 10:31:03 PM »
The oring goes in the groove.
As for lubing the inside the primary case with grease or whatever, probably not a great idea. the clutch needs lube too for the bushings and bearings. The plates might even need a bit of oil, too. The teeth on the clutch plates need lubing.  And the chain itself definitely needs to be lubed.
Most people who run open chains are racing the bikes and can lubricate the chain and stuff every time they come onto the pits. I have seen some people running open primaries on the street, but frankly, they're idiots! The primary is running a lot faster than the final drive chain and never gets to stop as long as the engine is running. It gets a lot hotter than the final drive chain.
You can probably seal the primary case up with silicone or other gasket making material.
Or you might be able to get it refaced at a machine shop. Or do it yourself on a hard flat table with sandpaper.
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High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 12:17:37 AM »
Silicone it is!

Scottie
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ace.cafe

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2013, 02:25:07 PM »
On the clutch there is a large diameter row of ball bearings that are between the clutch hub and the basket. If you leave them dry, they will wear out.
It happens to the racing dry clutches.
You need to lube those bearings fairly regularly. Probably every time that you lubricate the primary chain if you are running without oil in the primary.
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bullethead63

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2013, 03:26:04 PM »
So...ATF type F,or 40 wt in the primary case?
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D the D

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2013, 03:52:41 PM »
And I'll open a can of worms opened!  Depends on your personal preference and preferences run from specific brands to witches brew.  People who's opinions I respect use different stuff than I do.  Are they OEM clutch plates or aftermarket?  Some companies don't recommend ATF, EBC actually stated it would void your warranty.  Some aftermarket Primary Chain manufacturers don't recommend ATF.  You'll also hear that this brand ATF is bad cause it foams (every type has anti-foam in it, not just Fix Often Repair Daily brand) or the additives this or that.  If a type foams on you it's too thin (Type "F" is the highest viscosity car type) and can't handle motorcycle clutch application, period.  Type "F" is what people recommend, but it's getting harder to find.  And ponder that Ford ATF wasn't common nor recommended when this bike was designed.
And a hue and cry will come up that I've always done it this way or that and what my granddaddy did.  I have used oil and ATF in different bikes and prefer the feel of oil over ATF.  I use the same oil I run in the engine, 20w-50 motorcycle oil (which Kevin Mahoney recommended in an old post).   I don't worry about what somebody's granddaddy did, he's not riding my bike. ;D
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baird4444

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 01:57:44 PM »
I ran ATF in the primary of my es 2003 almost from day 1. I ran almost a whole quart to give the extra lube on the sprag clutch assembly...  let the bike go with over 38,000 miles with no primary issues....    the best reason I can give is if you have a NEW oil spot on the the shed floor,
the color can point you to the leak!!
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GreenMachine

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 03:25:08 PM »
 the best reason I can give is if you have a NEW oil spot on the the shed floor,
the color can point you to the leak!!

+1
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D the D

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 12:26:53 AM »
See?  Everyone likes what they like.  8) You just have to try things and decide what YOU like.
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1975 XLCH

High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 12:59:35 AM »
I think I'm going to run diesel fuel in my primary.    ;D
I just may try the ATF, but then again, if the damn thing still leaks after new seals and gaskets, I'm just going to let the damn thing leak.  It's not like I've ever owned anything that hasn't leaked.   ;)

Scottie
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AgentX

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 04:01:26 AM »
Scotty, if you're thinking of the bike I'm thinking of that had the stock clutch running exposed, I'd note that the whole bike was more of an art project than a real riding machine.  Might not be best to take mechanical cues from that sort of thing.  I know someone who handled it in person and he had reservations about a lot of the actual workings, including the stock clutch running dry and exposed.

For what it's worth, Hitchcock (and maybe Newby direct, which is cheaper) sells the Newby dry clutch to run with the duplex primary chain.  Cheaper than the full belt setup, but I don't know by how much.

I'm going to use the belt unit on my Fireball.  When I asked Newby how often to grease the bearings, he replied: 

"We donít have a specific mileage interval, some of our customers leave it for years, while others must get bored and do it regularly.  On my race bikes we strip them every season but my road bikes tend to get neglected.  I think most people tend to work on the ďIf itís not broke donít fix itĒ principle. Probably not the best approach !
If you want to check that it turns freely without any dry rough feeling when you rotate the centre with the plates removed. We can send you some of the correct synthetic grease if you want to have a go yourself. If you just want enough for the clutch bearing itís foc, or a tub is £5 inc post and vat.  Itís best to have 3 screws for the alloy back plate in case you damage them . They are Loctited so may require heating to release. We can include these with the tub of grease.
Best regards,
Bob."

High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 04:31:21 AM »
Oooooooohhh, Belt Drive.....    ;D  Tell me more AgentX.  I'm very curious about that set up.

Scottie
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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AgentX

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 05:26:59 AM »
Oooooooohhh, Belt Drive.....    ;D  Tell me more AgentX.  I'm very curious about that set up.

Scottie

Ummm...it's expensive, Ace and Chumma both like it, and it's cheaper from Newby direct than it is from the big H.

That's all I know right now!  I'm using it to cut down on drivetrain losses, cut down noise, and because I really hate opening up a wet primary.  Regreasing the clutch hub once a year I can deal with, especially since I won't have to deal with an ATF bath when I do.

I know now that my rebuilt bike will have a reliable charging system that I won't open the primary much, but as far as I'm concerned, I've dealt with enough ATF spew my life already.  (My 350 had alternator issues, then needed the primary cases replaced...what a pain...had that thing opened what feels like a million times in the dark carport at midnight, being chomped by mosquitos)  One less seal to maintain, one less fluid to change.  Works for me. This bike will be an exercise in indulgence.

Edit:  Oh, and I've had grief from primary tensioners which would or would not fit various cases, and a stripped stud for the tensioner, etc.  The belt eliminates the tensioner, which is another "whoo-wee" moment for me.

I know it's not an issue for anyone who's never had an issue, but for me there's value in that.  One less (potentially) moving part!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:35:31 AM by AgentX »

ERC

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 12:41:07 PM »
Do they make a Newby for a RE twin?  ERC
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D the D

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 02:22:15 PM »
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
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ERC

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 05:35:31 PM »
That's interesting thanks. May try one on my next project.  ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 05:41:47 PM »
That's interesting thanks. May try one on my next project.  ERC

I'm definitely going to be sending them an email.  So is it an exposed belt drive or is it enclosed by the primary covers still?

Scottie
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D the D

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 06:13:24 PM »
There's usually some sort of modified Primary Cover for safety that's partly open/vented for air cooling the clutch.  They probably leave that to you to make up.  Though I've seen people with Harleys running them open to show off.  They'll get something like a stick or pant leg in there someday.
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2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
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AgentX

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Re: Primary Cover Repair
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2013, 01:34:49 AM »
I'm definitely going to be sending them an email.  So is it an exposed belt drive or is it enclosed by the primary covers still?

Scottie

Far as I know, it's meant to be run enclosed.  Chuck D has one and Chumma put stylin' screened-over vents into the outer clover from what I saw on Flickr.

I can't imagine it'll implode into a singularity if you run it open, but grit between clutch plates and in the belt teeth seems inevitable and detrimental...