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Author Topic: Sixty-5 electric start  (Read 1068 times)

fxrskrsa

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Sixty-5 electric start
« on: July 08, 2013, 07:59:42 PM »
Hi folks

I am mulling over my options and would like your thoughts.
I love the electric start option on my Sixty-5 and want to preempt it failing... What are the routes to improve the likelihood it won't fail. I have a feeling you will all tell me to take the electric start off :( If that's the case, can I change the crank case to give a 'classic' look ?
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

ace.cafe

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2013, 09:49:45 PM »
To pre-empt failure of the sprag starter system, you can remove the primary case(both outer and inner) from the engine, and remove the backplate from behind the "hump" where the starter motor goes in. Then withdraw the whole intermediate gear cluster with shaft from the housing, complete. Then put the back plate on, and re-assemble the primary and parts on to the engine, and you will have a kick-start only bike which has a good sprag that you can put back in to the housing at any time in the future. This retains the "e-start" look.

To retrofit the older kick-start only primary case, you can try to obtain a KS inner primary case which is designed for 5-speed left shift bikes. They are pretty rare, but they are around. The last time I saw one, it was $185 for a new one. The E-start outer primary will work with it, so you don't need to buy a new outer primary case. With this KS 5-speed inner primary, it allows a straight bolt-on of the inner primary with all the normal holes lining up for the bolts, and all the holes in the primary for the left side shifter shaft to go thru it.

If you can't find one of the KS 5-speed inner primary cases, it is possible to retrofit an older 4-speed KS inner primary. But this requires you to drill and tap three new holes into the engine case around the crankshaft seal, because the old type uses a different bolt pattern. This is possible, and quite a few people have done it. It's a little more difficult and scary because you have to drill and tap the engine case, but if you are careful it is not a big deal. Just let us know if you are going to do that, so we can advise you. Then, you have to either switch the gearbox to right-side shift, or else you have to drill the inner primary for the left-side shifter shaft, and also machine it for the oil seal.

We have done all of the above on various bikes.  We are experienced in all these processes to convert it in these various ways.
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D the D

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2013, 11:49:12 PM »
Hitchcock's lists a cover plug and an E-start removal kit for E-start and 65 models .  Catalog page 49.  The removal kit includes a new inner cover and sprocket, specify left or right shift models.  Plugs about $15 and kit is about $185.
Haven't tried them, just noted it if the time comes.
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Arizoni

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 12:05:09 AM »
fxrskrsa:
If someone disagrees with me I'm sure they will let us know but assuming your Sixty-5 has an electric starter on it here are my thoughts on how to keep it working.

1.  Always keep your battery charged.  A low charge won't have the power to accelerate your starter motor rapidly.  If the motor accelerates gently it won't lock up the sprags in the clutch and if they slip they can be damaged.

2.  When shutting the engine off allow it to drop to a idle speed.  Then activate the decompression lever to kill the engine.  Then turn off the ignition switch.

If the engine is just shut off by turning off the ignition switch without using the decompression valve, the crankshafts inertia will drive the piston part way thru the compression stroke.   If it stops while in the compression stroke the pressure will drive the piston back down, rotating the crankshaft backwards.
When this happens, the sprags will instantly lock up and try to accelerate the starter motor and its gear-train backwards.  This puts a tremendous amount of load on the sprags (little elongated hardened steel pieces that wedge between the sprag clutch housing and its inner race or the crankshaft) and often will shatter them.

With the decompression lever activated at idle speed with the ignition switch still on, the piston on its last compression stroke will have the pressure relived so the piston won't be driven backwards by the compression.  This should greatly improve the life of the clutch.

In fact, this is one of the primary reasons the new UCE engines have a automatic compression device built into their exhaust cam.  It basically activates as the engine slows down and helps prevent the backwards rotation caused by the compression as the engine comes to a stop.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:09:28 AM by Arizoni »
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REpozer

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 07:28:52 AM »
I run a litre of 15w-40 motor oil in my primary drive.
At that level, the sprag is oiled a little better.
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fxrskrsa

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2013, 09:55:06 AM »
You folks here are amazing !!!! Thank you so much for your responses.. I will continue to A) Mull over whether to keep the E start. B) Be on the look out for a KS 5-speed inner primary case and snap one up if I see one, and finally C) Heed the advice and take the preventative measures mentioned. R.E's and their owners have a great karma and I will do my best to keep that going from my end :)
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

fxrskrsa

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 09:06:42 PM »
Hi again folks

Does anyone know where I might be able to find a KS inner primary case which is designed for 5-speed left shift bikes for sale ??
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

ERC

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 10:07:01 PM »
Hitchcocks has them #510946. Could be CMW has one left also.  ERC
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cafeman

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »
A set of thicker battery (starter circuit) cables is also a good investment if you decide to keep the e-start. Proper rated battery, quality solenoid, and sound connections are imperative. As a side note, when I had to remove the primary outer and inner to do a countershaft sprocket change, I had a look at the sprag assembly and noticed that the "idler gear" (I believe it was) was very tight and didn't rotate freely. This is the gear that the starter engages. I disassembled  everything, and found that the shaft bushings (in the hump and flat cover) were off center which was causing the gears to bind. Unbelievable!! So I slightly relieved the bushing bores until there was free rotation when all was assembled. Something anyone may want to consider checking if wanting to retain the e-start. ;)

Ice

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 06:21:47 PM »
After engine shut down use the de comp and the kick lever to slowly turn the crank to park the piston just a smidge past top dead center for two reasons.

 One: it prevents oil from flowing via gravity past the crank pin to flood the crank case I.E. wet sumping.

Two: not having to overcome compression puts less load on the e start parts (or your foot) and allows inertia to build in the flywheels.
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barenekd

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 01:55:43 AM »
My sprag failure happened I was coasting down a hill coming up to a stoplight. The engine quit while it was coasting and kicked back. I hard this mighty GRUNCH and knew immediately what it was. It did continue to work for a a couple of weeks with an occasional slip of the gears. When it got cold in the morning, then all I just got the whiz of the starter. A week later the part was in and I had to wait a day or so before it as warm enough for the bike to start. I rode it to the shop and had the sprag replaced, and took it home. The bike died the next time I rode it with Jack a few days later. I guess all that stuff was just the bike going through its death throes!
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fxrskrsa

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 07:20:19 AM »
Can you folks explain why the engine will kick back like that, is it due to an ignition of fuel at the wrong time ??
Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

Ice

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 08:14:05 AM »
Certainly poor timing but also lean conditions contribute.

*Edit to add*

 Also low cranking RPM due to poor electrical connections and weak batteries contribute to kick back.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:28:34 AM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

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Tiny Tim

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 04:25:57 PM »
Sprag failure is more common on the AVL engine due to the higher compression ratio. From my own experience (4th sprag... or is it 5?), I can offer the following points of wisdom:

1. Sprags fail, not on starting but on specifically on stalling. When the engine doesn't have the required momentum to get past TDC, It can backfire and the sprag is specifically designed to fail at that point. It is designed to stop the engine driving the starter motor once it's running; sort of a one-way clutch.
2. The best protection is to ensure that your tick-over is not low but comfortably high (but not racing).
3. Stop the engine either on the Ignition, Kill Switch or on the decompressor. Each method prevents a backfire which must be your aim to save the sprag.
4. Stalling must be avoided at all costs
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boggy

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Re: Sixty-5 electric start
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 10:28:25 PM »
One thing to note that if you are keeping the e-start.  Check to see if you have the green or black (black is stock) TDI unit under your seat.  I used to remember what TDI stood for but it's a little electronic control unit.  Someone smarter can clarify what it does - I think it changes the AVL's starter timing to be friendlier to the sprag.  If yours is black, call NField gear, provide them with your VIN# and they will promptly drop one in the mail for you at no charge.  I still don't e-start my bike since my commute is too short to keep the battery juiced but I also haven't noticed anything negative after putting it in.
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