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Author Topic: Return Oil Pump Replacement  (Read 1430 times)

High On Octane

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Return Oil Pump Replacement
« on: July 18, 2013, 03:16:31 AM »
What better way to start a new job than to puked a total of 4qts of oil on the road on the way there and back.  I thought maybe the bike was just puking because I was on the highway.   So I installed an old PCV valve from a Subaru on the crank tube.  Stop at the gas station next door and it took 2qts of oil to to off!  Driving home look down, no oil spillage, problem solved.  WRONG!  Half way home I look down and I have oil gushing out of the primary thru the whole for the clutch cable and alternator.  Get off the highway and make my way home.  Drain a half qt out of the primary and again 2 qts of oil to top off again!  Start the bike up and it's barely spitting anything out of the return tube.

So what is involved in replacing the return pump?  And how the hell did I NOT LOCK UP THE MOTOR?!

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 06:56:16 AM »
Hi Scottie,
 The scavenge oil pump is located behind a small cover plate facing forwards on the edge of the timing cover, a 5 minute job to remove it by undoing four small bolts which hold the cover plate on. the pump can then be pulled out for inspection and / or replacement. The feed pump is to the rear edge of the timing cover and a bit more fiddly to get at, but can also be got at quite easily if required. If checking both pumps, make sure the biggest one is at the front, if not, this would cause the troubles you describe.
 There can be a few other causes for your problem - some that I have come up against with the twins include:   
 Wrong type of timing cover gasket [will fit, but oil holes different]
 Wrong type of timing cover  :o  [as above]
 Worn oil pump and / or seating
 Blockage at the timing cover / crankcase interface, where, on some machines the scavenge oil has to pass through a 90 degree turn in a channel that is very short and shallow [saw gasket goo blocking one once]
 At the very worst - the big 'washer' that fits outboard of the main bearing in the crankcase is your timing side 'oil seal' - if this is damaged, or the main bearing inner race on the crank has crept inwards [should be flush with end of crank when fitted and not fully home against the crank web], oil will pour into the crankcase and the scavenge pump will struggle to keep up because oil 'waiting' to be picked up from the timing chest and returned to the 'tank' will instead go back into the crankcase in addition to the oil being pumped in via the feed pump. this will empty your 'tank' and fill the crankcase, causing oil to try and escape any way it can.
 If your primary case is filling, one thing's for certain - not enough [if any] oil is being pumped out from the crankcase, so it is possible it may be any of the above.
 If I think of anything else, I will get back.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:05:48 AM by Bullet Whisperer »

High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 11:55:28 AM »
My bike has always had a problem with spitting out oil at high RPMs.  I've checked the return line inside of the oil fill before and it seemed to be working ok, but when I checked it after I got home last night, it seemed to be spitting out more oil from the crank breather than from the oil return line.  It's just not pumping the oil back out of the crank case.

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 12:40:23 PM »
In that case, Scottie, I would get the inspection cover off the pump at the front edge of the timing cover and see if the peg on the end of the drive spindle may have sheared off, causing loss of drive. You will also be able to see if the drive spindle is still turning with the engine by doing this.
 If all is well there, I would be taking the timing cover off next, to check all the oilways are clear.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:42:32 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

Ice

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
Engine pushing oil into the primary sounds like a seal problem among other things.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

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ERC

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 10:20:37 PM »
I'd definitely do what BW says. When you put the new seal in the inner primay did you put the spring side of the seal up against the crankcase? If you put it the other way it won't seal properly.    ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 04:30:35 AM »
IT'S A BRAND NEW SEAL!   It only has maybe 15 hours on it.  I'm positive that the oil was going into the primary was because I put an old pcv valve on the crank breather.  On my way to work the oil was pouring out of my catch can.  Then I put the pcv valve on and it stopped coming out of the catch can, but the oil had to go somewhere if the crank breather is plugged.  I pulled the pump cover off and it looks like the pump is working properly but I'm not sure so I had my son take a video, but of course he recorded it in HD so it's taking forever to download but I'll post it as soon as possible.

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 04:54:45 AM »
It may be a brand new seal but ERC's question was "did you put the spring side towards the crankcase?".
If a seal is installed backwards it will appear to work when there is little pressure trying to blow past it.   When the pressure increases a backwards seal won't seal.

At least you have varified the oil pump drive shaft is rotating. :)
The worm drive on the crankshaft has been known to eat the teeth off of the drive shaft which will keep both pumps from working.
Jim
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 05:03:14 AM »
NO, the spring side of the seal was to the inside of the of the primary case exactly how the old seal was placed.

OK here's the video.  As you can see the pump is rotating and there is definitely a sucking noise coming from the pump, but I'm not sure which pump the noise is coming from.  Blocked passage some where?  I'm confused.    :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXf49E4ARA&feature=youtu.be

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 02:20:25 PM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 05:11:01 PM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?
That's what I was thinking.
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 12:59:23 AM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?

More likely it was bad and plugged, it's a threaded PCV that threads into the intake manifold, I put the threaded side towards the engine side.  I'm thinking it's a bigger problem.  When I inspected the return pump operation it was spitting out as much oil out of the open breather house as it was coming out of the return line.  So you guys think the return pump is in fact working or not?

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 01:05:01 AM »
Crap!  Maybe I did install it backwards.  PCV valves are designed for vacuum not pressure.  Dumb ass.  Think I damaged anything?

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 01:13:12 AM »
I doubt it damaged anything.
Just try removing it and see if it clears up the problem.

The return pump can be checked by loosening the banjo bolt on one of the oil line feeds to the head, and if oil starts pumping out, the return pump is working.

If you had both the pumps apart, you need to know that the return pump is always the larger pump plunger, because the return needs to be able to pump more than the feed pump, so it can clear the sump in cases of wet-sumping. So be sure you have the right pumps in their right places.
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 02:43:19 AM »
I never had the pumps out, I just checked by pulling the cover off of the return side.  You can hear something sucking in the video I posted, but being the cover was off I don't think it was creating enough vacuum to suck any oil.  I just bought a new smaller PCV valve and rather then a catch can I ran the house out the back of the fender.  I'm going to fire up the bike and take a short trip as soon as I finish this oil change.  I'm sick of cleaning oil off of everything, that's for sure.

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2013, 03:08:52 AM »
Good Luck!
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ace.cafe

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2013, 12:20:46 PM »
I never had the pumps out, I just checked by pulling the cover off of the return side.  You can hear something sucking in the video I posted, but being the cover was off I don't think it was creating enough vacuum to suck any oil.  I just bought a new smaller PCV valve and rather then a catch can I ran the house out the back of the fender.  I'm going to fire up the bike and take a short trip as soon as I finish this oil change.  I'm sick of cleaning oil off of everything, that's for sure.

Scottie

It isn't really possible to check the pump with its cover off. All you can do with the cover off is to check for damage, or seating, or binding. It needs the spring pressure to make it work correctly, and since it's a double-acting pump, half the pumping action would be prevented by having the cover off. The pumping should be checked at the outlet line.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 02:48:39 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2013, 02:07:09 PM »
To see the return flow you have to take the oil cap off and see if it pumps out of the tube that's in the fill tube. Start the bike loosen one of the banjo fittings at tjhe head you want oil coming out if that's ok tighten the banjo then look in the oil fill tube there should be oil pumping back in to the oil tank. How does the breather set up on your bike work? They have a couple of different ways to do it. Duckbill, one way valves etc. It could be you have your breather set up improperly. Can you put a picture on with how yours is set up? Here's a picture of oil flow.  ERC
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 02:23:32 PM by ERC »
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »
My set up is currently as follows; I have the breather port bolted to the side of the block, the breather port is stuffed with steel wool.  I have rubber vacuum hose coming of the breather port running back along the frame and starts to come up where the frame starts curving upwards towards the seat.  I have a small PCV valve mounted vertically on the small upward porting of the frame and another section of rubber hose that runs out the back of the bike along the fender.

I finished the oil change last night and put in 2 3/4 qts of oil in the case, the oil was about half way between the marks on the oil stick.  Start the bike and it starts pouring blue smoke out of the right exhaust pipe.  Check the oil level and oil is gurgling out of the oil fill!  WTF?!  Drain some oil back out to the proper level.  Start the bike again, check the breather tube and sufficient air was escaping, so I go for a short ride.  Within a 1.5 miles the PCV was forced closed with oil so I come back home.  Drained 2 ounces of oil out of the primary again, check the level on the stick and the oil is barely on it again.  Out of curiosity I pulled the breather attachment off of the block to see just to what exactly is going on.  I ran the bike for 5 seconds and this is the mess it made.



I'm beginning to think that the oil passage from the crankcase back to the pump is clogged.  Even the oil return spout is not putting out nearly as much oil as it did when I first started diagnosing the bike several months ago.

What is my next step to try and fix this???

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »
My first move would be to remove the stuffing of steel wool out of the breather port. It's not a good place for it.
Make sure that rubber vacuum hose is at least 5/16" I.D. tube.
Remove the PCV valve, and put a duckbill on the hose, or just get a small gatorade bottle and put two holes in the top, and run the breather hose into it, so it works as a catch can. Then get a duckbill on it when you can.
The catch can allows you to see what's blowing out, and not make a mess all over the bike. Zip-tie it to a frame member somewhere out of the way, temporarily.

Also, definitely check for the oil return system issues too.
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 04:26:53 PM »
My first move would be to remove the stuffing of steel wool out of the breather port. It's not a good place for it.
Make sure that rubber vacuum hose is at least 5/16" I.D. tube.
Remove the PCV valve, and put a duckbill on the hose, or just get a small gatorade bottle and put two holes in the top, and run the breather hose into it, so it works as a catch can. Then get a duckbill on it when you can.
The catch can allows you to see what's blowing out, and not make a mess all over the bike. Zip-tie it to a frame member somewhere out of the way, temporarily.

Also, definitely check for the oil return system issues too.

That's basically how I had it set up before the the PCV valve installed.  My problem is the oil is literally pouring out of the crank breather.  LITERALLY.  It doesn't matter how I have it set up, it just pours out of the breather.  For what ever reason the oil isn't being sucked back into the oil tank.

My Previous Set Up That Poured Oil Everywhere


Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 04:30:15 PM »
Just for the record, and the lubrication diagram posted by ERC will confirm - the rocker oil feed comes from the feed pump on the twins, not the return, as on the Bullets, so don't slacken off the rocker feed unions to check for scavenge flow - it will be coming from the feed pump instead.

ERC

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 04:38:57 PM »
Ace is on the money here get rid of the steel wool. What you are pumping out the breather is whats trapped in the crankcase. I'd do what Ace says and put a bottle on it till you empty most of the oil out of there. A duckbill is what you want or the proper plate and stops that bolt to the side of the block. If you get most of the oil out of the crankcase. And have a good breather on there it should pull the oil out of the crank and put it back in the oil tank.If it doesn't pump it back into the oil tank with everything set up properly then your return is blocked or not working. On some motors you can drain the crankcase if you have the screw in the picture I'll include. If it doesn't have this then you'll have to run it out.   ERC
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:47:22 PM by ERC »
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ERC

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »
Here's pictures of the breathers they used. You must have one of these setups. ERC
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 07:06:48 PM »
I think I figured out the problem.  I pulled the timing cover and there was a piece of silicone lodged in 1 of the return ports.  Also I noticed that all the holes in the timing cover gasket for the return ports were not lined up correctly and only about half of the holes were exposed, so I drilled out the holes in the gasket so they flowed properly.  I have the bike idling right now and it doesn't seem like there's any oil coming out of the back of the bike.  Where can I find a duck bill?

Scottie
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 07:46:44 PM »
I think I figured out the problem.  I pulled the timing cover and there was a piece of silicone lodged in 1 of the return ports.  Also I noticed that all the holes in the timing cover gasket for the return ports were not lined up correctly and only about half of the holes were exposed

Scottie
Glad you got it sorted, scottie. as I said earlier, it's not unheard of and I wonder if some of these machines ever changed hands on the cheap because of it. The smallest bit of crap will block that area off and stop the oil returning, but at least it's not too hard to sort it.
 B.W.

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »
Just rode around the neighborhood keeping the RPMs up in lower gears.  Held my hand over the breather tube at like 4500RPMs or so and almost no blue by at all, good pressure coming out but no oil, just a slight mist.  Plus after I checked the oil again after I rode I gained about a half qt of oil in the crank case which indicates the pump is working like it should again.  Thanks for everyones help.

Scottie
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ERC

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2013, 09:49:44 PM »
Scottie, You could call CMW they may have one Hitchcocks has them #41224 breather tube.   ERC
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 06:27:40 PM »
Well at least you rustproofed your bike Scotty. ;-)
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2013, 01:14:15 AM »
You can also buy them on eBay,by the 10 pack,for the price of one,if you don't mind waiting for them to come from Chennai...that's what I do,and Vintage Auto Spares has always had good prices,and quality products...glad you got her sorted out!
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