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Author Topic: Return Oil Pump Replacement  (Read 1193 times)

High On Octane

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Return Oil Pump Replacement
« on: July 18, 2013, 03:16:31 AM »
What better way to start a new job than to puked a total of 4qts of oil on the road on the way there and back.  I thought maybe the bike was just puking because I was on the highway.   So I installed an old PCV valve from a Subaru on the crank tube.  Stop at the gas station next door and it took 2qts of oil to to off!  Driving home look down, no oil spillage, problem solved.  WRONG!  Half way home I look down and I have oil gushing out of the primary thru the whole for the clutch cable and alternator.  Get off the highway and make my way home.  Drain a half qt out of the primary and again 2 qts of oil to top off again!  Start the bike up and it's barely spitting anything out of the return tube.

So what is involved in replacing the return pump?  And how the hell did I NOT LOCK UP THE MOTOR?!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 06:56:16 AM »
Hi Scottie,
 The scavenge oil pump is located behind a small cover plate facing forwards on the edge of the timing cover, a 5 minute job to remove it by undoing four small bolts which hold the cover plate on. the pump can then be pulled out for inspection and / or replacement. The feed pump is to the rear edge of the timing cover and a bit more fiddly to get at, but can also be got at quite easily if required. If checking both pumps, make sure the biggest one is at the front, if not, this would cause the troubles you describe.
 There can be a few other causes for your problem - some that I have come up against with the twins include:   
 Wrong type of timing cover gasket [will fit, but oil holes different]
 Wrong type of timing cover  :o  [as above]
 Worn oil pump and / or seating
 Blockage at the timing cover / crankcase interface, where, on some machines the scavenge oil has to pass through a 90 degree turn in a channel that is very short and shallow [saw gasket goo blocking one once]
 At the very worst - the big 'washer' that fits outboard of the main bearing in the crankcase is your timing side 'oil seal' - if this is damaged, or the main bearing inner race on the crank has crept inwards [should be flush with end of crank when fitted and not fully home against the crank web], oil will pour into the crankcase and the scavenge pump will struggle to keep up because oil 'waiting' to be picked up from the timing chest and returned to the 'tank' will instead go back into the crankcase in addition to the oil being pumped in via the feed pump. this will empty your 'tank' and fill the crankcase, causing oil to try and escape any way it can.
 If your primary case is filling, one thing's for certain - not enough [if any] oil is being pumped out from the crankcase, so it is possible it may be any of the above.
 If I think of anything else, I will get back.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:05:48 AM by Bullet Whisperer »

High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 11:55:28 AM »
My bike has always had a problem with spitting out oil at high RPMs.  I've checked the return line inside of the oil fill before and it seemed to be working ok, but when I checked it after I got home last night, it seemed to be spitting out more oil from the crank breather than from the oil return line.  It's just not pumping the oil back out of the crank case.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 12:40:23 PM »
In that case, Scottie, I would get the inspection cover off the pump at the front edge of the timing cover and see if the peg on the end of the drive spindle may have sheared off, causing loss of drive. You will also be able to see if the drive spindle is still turning with the engine by doing this.
 If all is well there, I would be taking the timing cover off next, to check all the oilways are clear.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:42:32 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

Ice

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
Engine pushing oil into the primary sounds like a seal problem among other things.
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ERC

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 10:20:37 PM »
I'd definitely do what BW says. When you put the new seal in the inner primay did you put the spring side of the seal up against the crankcase? If you put it the other way it won't seal properly.    ERC
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 04:30:35 AM »
IT'S A BRAND NEW SEAL!   It only has maybe 15 hours on it.  I'm positive that the oil was going into the primary was because I put an old pcv valve on the crank breather.  On my way to work the oil was pouring out of my catch can.  Then I put the pcv valve on and it stopped coming out of the catch can, but the oil had to go somewhere if the crank breather is plugged.  I pulled the pump cover off and it looks like the pump is working properly but I'm not sure so I had my son take a video, but of course he recorded it in HD so it's taking forever to download but I'll post it as soon as possible.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

Arizoni

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 04:54:45 AM »
It may be a brand new seal but ERC's question was "did you put the spring side towards the crankcase?".
If a seal is installed backwards it will appear to work when there is little pressure trying to blow past it.   When the pressure increases a backwards seal won't seal.

At least you have varified the oil pump drive shaft is rotating. :)
The worm drive on the crankshaft has been known to eat the teeth off of the drive shaft which will keep both pumps from working.
Jim
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 05:03:14 AM »
NO, the spring side of the seal was to the inside of the of the primary case exactly how the old seal was placed.

OK here's the video.  As you can see the pump is rotating and there is definitely a sucking noise coming from the pump, but I'm not sure which pump the noise is coming from.  Blocked passage some where?  I'm confused.    :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXf49E4ARA&feature=youtu.be

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 02:20:25 PM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?
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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2013, 05:11:01 PM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?
That's what I was thinking.
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 12:59:23 AM »
Perhaps the one-way PCV valve is installed backwards?

More likely it was bad and plugged, it's a threaded PCV that threads into the intake manifold, I put the threaded side towards the engine side.  I'm thinking it's a bigger problem.  When I inspected the return pump operation it was spitting out as much oil out of the open breather house as it was coming out of the return line.  So you guys think the return pump is in fact working or not?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 01:05:01 AM »
Crap!  Maybe I did install it backwards.  PCV valves are designed for vacuum not pressure.  Dumb ass.  Think I damaged anything?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 01:13:12 AM »
I doubt it damaged anything.
Just try removing it and see if it clears up the problem.

The return pump can be checked by loosening the banjo bolt on one of the oil line feeds to the head, and if oil starts pumping out, the return pump is working.

If you had both the pumps apart, you need to know that the return pump is always the larger pump plunger, because the return needs to be able to pump more than the feed pump, so it can clear the sump in cases of wet-sumping. So be sure you have the right pumps in their right places.
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High On Octane

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Re: Return Oil Pump Replacement
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 02:43:19 AM »
I never had the pumps out, I just checked by pulling the cover off of the return side.  You can hear something sucking in the video I posted, but being the cover was off I don't think it was creating enough vacuum to suck any oil.  I just bought a new smaller PCV valve and rather then a catch can I ran the house out the back of the fender.  I'm going to fire up the bike and take a short trip as soon as I finish this oil change.  I'm sick of cleaning oil off of everything, that's for sure.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance