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Author Topic: New AVL Owner—Help!  (Read 2264 times)

RP McMurphy

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New AVL Owner—Help!
« on: August 17, 2013, 12:31:35 AM »
Hey everyone, new guy here. I got my 2008 AVL Deluxe about six months ago, and in that time, I’ve managed to kick it into life twice. Never even had a chance to ride!

So here’s where things get interesting—sometimes it feels like the Sprag Clutch is completely gone, and other times it kicks over just fine. Today I managed to get it going in a few minutes with the kick starter (bike had been sitting for a while, so not enough juice for the electric start). Kicking seems to take forever, and I’ve never been able to properly find top dead center—the decomp lever will go down, but it doesn’t seem to have a significant impact on starting the bike once I kick it through.

Weird bit—after I got it running today, there seems to be almost no juice left in the bike, even though the engine ran for a couple of minutes. Weirder still, now it doesn’t want to shift out of neutral (I thought I would try backing the bike up in gear to find TDC, put it neutral, and kick), but the neutral light doesn’t come on. Worked fine before I got the bike running.

So what’s the verdict? Anyone have some sage wisdom to pass along? I’ve been thinking I had to dig out the broken sprag for months, but after I got her running today, I wasn’t so sure. Now I don’t know. I’m the second owner, and she has about 6,000 miles on the clock, so no hope of warranty. I looked under the seat, and the green TCI box is installed, just not sure if that completely solved the sprag issue.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

boggy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 02:55:57 AM »
RP,
Easiest way to find TDC on your AVL is to slowly kick that lever until it feels REALLY tough. When you feel that, keep pushing SLOWLY through until it just gives way and feels easy. Stop pushing and let your lever back up to the start for the kick. Give it a kick making sure you go fully through. Thoroughly kicking through is more important than kicking hard.

You aren't kicking while decompressing are you?

Charging the battery and a fresh plug will only help matters. My AVL has a NGK BR8ES plug from any auto store, for reference.

Your clutch may be sticky from sitting but no neutral light might mean you have zero juice in that thing. That's a start and I'm sure there will be better ideas here shortly.
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

Arizoni

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 04:05:17 AM »
RP:
Before you turn the key on, pull out the kick starter lever and pull in the clutch.  Slowly kick the lever thru a stroke.  You will feel the resistance get harder and suddenly it will kick freely.  This will break loose your sticky clutch plates.  It will help when you want to shift into first gear.

With the bike on the center stand you should be able to turn the rear wheel slightly if the transmission is in gear.  Working the shift lever and jostling the rear wheel a bit should allow you to find neutral if you already haven't.
The transmission really needs to be in neutral before you start the engine.
If your battery is dead or almost dead your neutral light might not light.

Like boggy say's, either with the compression release engaged or disengaged, with the clutch lever released, press the kickstarter down until you feel a lot of resistance. 
That's the piston coming up on the compression stroke.  When it reaches TDC it will suddenly be very easy to kick further down but this is the time to stop and to reset the kickstarter to the top of its stroke.

If the decompression lever was engaged, now is the time to disengage it.  The engine won't start with the lever engaged.

Turn on the ignition key and kick the kickstarter completely thru its stroke.  That should rotate the engine thru at least one complete cycle and hopefully it will start.
If not, find the TDC position again and give it another try.

About the sprag clutch:  If it is working, it will only engage when the electric start motor is energized.  If the motor starts spinning without turning the engine over, the sprag clutch is toast.  If the electric motor always cranks the engine (when the battery is charged), the sprag clutch is fine.  If the starter motor sometimes cranks the engine and sometimes just winds up without turning the engine, the sprag clutch is on the way to breaking.

Sometimes the neutral light switch can hang up so the light doesn't come on even if the transmission is in neutral.  Also, like boggy says, if the battery is almost dead the light wont work.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 04:44:34 AM »
Hey All,

Thanks for the pointers. I did try kicking the bike through with the clutch lever pulled in, neutral light still not coming on. Now the headlight is coming on, so there's definitely juice (and remember, it had enough charge to start earlier today). Neutral light still won't come on however. Is there anyway that a busted sprag could lock up the transmission and fool the neutral light that the bike is in gear?

Also, every time I kick the starter, I usually hear a loud "clack" sound. Doesn't sound normal. From what I've been able to gather, it seems like sometimes the sprag is broken (kickstarting drags the whole transmission and sounds like a wind-up flashlight), and at other times the kicker is much lighter and the bike can be started (like this afternoon)

again, thanks for all the help!

tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 02:30:53 PM »
    Another thing to remember with the AVL when we're discussing finding TDC, etc., & finding the best place to kickstart at, etc., is that the "compression release" lever on the AVL is not actually a compression release in the old school sense.

            All the compression release lever on an AVL does is prevent the exhaust valve from closing IF it's open which it is NOT at TDC power stroke.. I found it useless very early on for finding that sweet spot for kick starting. I quit using it early on & just kick it now by what feels right.

            I only use the lever to kill the engine. I never shut it off with the key because early on I got that dreaded sprag noise a couple times. I almost never use the electric start. I have a dealer 3 hours away (+ I don't trust dealers in general) & I do not want to rebuild the sprag clutch. I'll save the ES for it dieing in traffic or some other horror show.

            I ditto the other guys on kicking through. More important than weight or muscles. Pretend (like in karate theory) that you want your foot to go "through" the pavement on that downstroke.  I still kick a harley & I'm 75 & weigh 140 pounds. Technique + tuning equals success (Sun Tzu sed that   :)).

        RP, you might find you need to do a complete "dealer prep tuneup" by the numbers to get your machine in shape. Plus that noise you're hearing is scary.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 02:35:50 PM by tooseevee »
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

Ice

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 04:04:12 PM »
+1 to what he said.
 It's all about technique

 BTW H-D, my Asian trail bikes and our Bullets all require different kick over techniques.

 The sharp sudden kick of the trail bike or the build resistance and jump technique of the H-D are intuitive but not right for the Bullet.

 Edge the piston over TDC and stop, re engage the kicker pawl then and give a smooth push through to get the flywheels moving and let their inertia take it from there.  ;)

 Here's a link to a video that shows how little oomph is needed.
The video starts after the piston had already been edged past TDC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPbEUXaI5cA

I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 03:03:26 AM »
Update---

Alright chaps, just gave things another go. This time, I opened the tappet cover to see if the kickstart was moving things along. The answer-- sort of. Whenever the kicker gave a lot of resistance, the tappets would "breathe" (this was a cold engine, and the tappets did pass the thumb roll test with no vertical movement), and move up and down. Felt (and sounded) like the whole tranmission was moving along with it.

Occasionally however, it felt like the kicker lost all traction with the system, and sort of "slipped". No movement out of the tappets then. That has me a bit worried.

At this point, from all that I've read I'd be willing to wager that my sprag is toast, and that it occasionally it all gets jumbled around so that it does work. With the "slipping" kicker, I really hope nothing else has gone seriously wrong in the primary.

Can anyone point me to a good guide on how to get to the sprag on an AVL? At this point, I kinda want to just pull the damn thing out, and run kickstart only. No chance I could just go the back way through the electric  start motor, is there? Another thought-- could I leave the starter motor/motor housing in place to cover up the hole in the inner-primary cover?

Again, you guys are a tremendous help. Thank you!

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 03:07:33 AM »
*Not sure if this helps, but here's a video of the poor bike running. Anyone hear anything odd? Sounds normal to my ears...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDOocQPlCYE

Arizoni

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2013, 05:50:25 AM »
Sounds pretty normal to me except for the barking sound it's making.

I'm not quite sure what to make of that.  ;)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Ice

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 06:07:45 AM »
Sound normal to what's left of my hearing.

Lets see if I can share some insight without insulting your intelligence or muddying the waters. Sometimes I am not good at this so my apologies in advance.

 The sprag is part of the electric start gear drive which is its own system separate from the clutch.

 In no particular order, possible causes for the kicker seeming to slip are faulty kicker pawl or spring, excessively worn clutch discs, clutch lever pulled partly in, clutch system adjusted to tight.

Several fellows have pulled the e start and pared a good 15 pounds or more pounds off the bikes weight as a result.

Here's a link to an on line parts diagram that will be of help.  http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/278/2005_Electra_(X)_


« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 06:37:23 AM by Ice »
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 05:08:52 PM »
Arizoni-- yeah, the barking noise is a killer. Can't figure that one out at all  ;D

Ice-- thanks for the pointers, and all insults to my intelligence greatly appreciated. I really hope the clutch isn't locked up or worn to all get out. Was hoping that a disintegrating sprag could be the cause of it all, so that it would just be a one time fix. Guess we won't know till I get in there. We'll see.

As of yet, I haven't had the guts to open up the primary and go after that sprag-- will probably call a mechanic friend to help. Gonna take some time (just graduated from college, etc, etc). I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks again,
RP

Superchuck

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 03:53:33 AM »
Congrats on the new bike, and congrats on taking the effort to give it some TLC!

I was under the impression that if you're only using your kick start, that has nothing to do with your sprag at all.  Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that a busted sprag, although potentially jamming up the system with broken teeth, etc, wouldn't be in use while kickstarting, and that it couldn't be the reason for the intermittent kickstart lever.

I also wouldn't pay any attention to a neutral light (or lack thereof).  Mine works about 5% of the time, and it's just coincidence if the finicky light decides to turn on or not.

That being said, I may have a lot of posts on here on the forums, but I'm still a beginner in a lot of things motorcycle.  For instance, it seems strange that this problem you're having is intermittent.  If it is a clutch tightness issue (clutch cable connected to the hand lever is too tight), could this maybe be aggravated by the handlebars being turned to the far right?  Not sure if the clutch lever is the same, but I know this can be a concern when setting the tightness of the throttle cable.  (turning the handlebars to its extents can put additional tightness on the throttle cable, which would be noticeable by the engine revving when you're not twisting the grip)  just wondering if that same thing could be at play with your clutch cable.

Either way, checking your cable tightness and maybe 'clutch throwout adjustment' could be simple things to check, even if to just eliminate them as problems.

Also, how is your electric starting?  You mentioned that the battery is low... if you don't have a battery tender, just try hooking it up to a car's battery with jumper cables to charge it a bit.  Make sure the car is turned OFF cause i've heard bad things can happens if it's on (overpowers your old fashioned bike electrics).  You could leave it hooked to the car's battery for a bit and see if that helps charge it, or you could just try electric-starting your bike while jumper-cabled to the car.  If it starts fine every time, then you know your sprag is OK.

Lastly, one thing that happened to me (embarassingly) is that the little bolt and nut on the bottom of your kickstart lever got loosened on mine and I didn't notice it.  Then when I'd kick it, it would sometimes work fine, then other times it would slip right down...  this was the metal kickstart arm slipping on where it connects to that round nub that protrudes out of your gearbox.  I'd have to pull it up again to try kicking again.  This only lasted a handful of kicks though til it was totally shot...  The little teeth on my kick-lever got sheared off and I had to replace it.  Luckily a generous forum member sent me his old one for simply the cost of shipping.  I'm guessing that's not your problem but it's at least something to check.

Lastly, I'd listen to Ice... he's got it narrowed down a bit and i'd guess that one of his suggestions are correct.  I type a lot but my actual know-how is fairly limited.  This AVL is my first bike, and I've never done anything mechanical or automotive before getting it three years ago.

Cheers,

chuck

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 04:00:50 AM »
Thanks for the input.

I should clarify-- electric start has never worked. I used a battery tender to trickle charge the battery up a while back, but the motor just never caught even though I could hear the electric start spooling around. That's another reason I think the sprag might be going.

If the sprag isn't blown, and something else is locking up the transmission (I've seen posts where other users have put their full weight on the kickstart lever without it moving because of the sprag), then that'll be another whole adventure. >.<

Thanks for the input (I'll check the kickstarter nut)

RP

Arizoni

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 09:45:30 PM »
Perhaps you already know this but the sprag clutch is a 1 way clutch that is located on the engines crankshaft.
When the electric starter motor starts running it turns a series of gears that turn the outside gear on the sprag clutch.

As the sprag clutch starts to turn, the sprags bind up against the crankshaft causing it to turn the crank and start the engine.

When the engine fires and speeds up, because the crankshaft is turning faster than the starter motor driven sprag clutch, the sprags release their grip and start to slip, allowing the starter motor and its gear train to come to a stop.

If the electric start motor is activeated and it just accelerates up with a whining sound, the sprag clutch is not locking up on the crankshaft.  Simply put, the sprag clutch is broken.

If the engine is started with the kick starter, the bike can be ridden but there is always the chance that further damage to the sprags will happen and if these start to break up the resulting pieces of hardened steel can cause mischief with the bearings and the duplex primary drive chain.

Another form of failure in a sprag clutch is when it fails to release its grip on the crankshaft.  Basically, the sprags have wedged in place.
If this happens, any movement of the crankshaft will result in the electric start drive gears and the electric starter motor turning.
If this happens and the kick starter is used to start the engine, the starter motor will make a whurrrrrr'ing sound even though the electric start button isn't pressed.

If this happens, the bike cannot be ridden without overspeeding the starter motor which can do great harm to it.
If the starter motor is removed the motors drive gears will still be turning and while they can do this for a while, their bearing surfaces were not designed for them to be running all the time.

The sprag clutches used on the old Iron Barrel and on the AVL were not up to the task of dealing with a big 500cc engine backfiring or its crankshaft rotating backwards as it comes up on compression after it is turned off.  The shock can cause the hardened sprags to break.
Royal Enfield made a new Green controller to help with this problem but  basically the whole electric start system is weak.

That's why many owners have decided to remove the sprag clutch, the start motor and its drive gear train.
 
The kick starter is a totally independent thing.
It drives the transmission shaft thru a ratchet style clutch.  If the ratchet pawl and teeth don't engage fully as it is depressed it can slip.
When it is not slipping it turns the transmission shaft which turns the clutch plates which turns the clutch housing (if the clutch lever is released).  As the clutch housing turns, the duplex primary chain turns the crankshaft.
It should start the engine even if the sprag clutch is broken.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 09:55:02 PM by Arizoni »
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

boggy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2013, 11:09:50 PM »
I ride my AVL everyday (that I can) and never in the morning and never at night will the e-start get enough speed to turn over the engine.  ONLY when I've been riding it for a while, and maybe get off it for an hour will that e-start turn my bike over so I might not assume that it's broken.  I'd only ever trust that fact if the battery was 100% charged and the e-start failed.

If you have not put in a new plug, you should at least try. It's cheap, and it's been the cause of my AVL not starting at least 90% of the time.  Few bucks, a minute to change.

Superchuck - that loose kicker bolt sounds crazy, but TOTALLY believable for the wild-world of Enfields. I could see myself fiddling with the bike for days only realizing that it's something like that.  That, is classic.
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 06:36:47 PM »
Hey all,

Thanks for the explanations. Boggy, I put in a new plug back when I got the bike started for the first time. A few months ago, but it's only been started once since. I may give charging the battery fully a shot, but it seems like this is much more of a mechanical issue.

Based on Arizoni's advice, it sounds like the Sprag is binding up, not disintegrating (though that may also be the case I suppose). I think every now and then the sprag will lose its grip on the crankshaft, and those are the times when I've been able to kickstart. When I get the "slipping" feeling through the kicker, it's smooth, so it doesn't feel like teeth slipping or grinding off a gear. More like a smooth slip. My best guess is that the sprag is locked up so tight that the clutch plates slip before the sprag does. So there's no movement in the duplex primary chain, which explains why the tappets won't budge when I get the "slipping" feel through the kicker. Thoughts?

Thanks guys.

tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 09:25:59 PM »
Hey all,

Thanks for the explanations. Boggy, I put in a new plug back when I got the bike started for the first time. A few months ago, but it's only been started once since. I may give charging the battery fully a shot, but it seems like this is much more of a mechanical issue.

Based on Arizoni's advice, it sounds like the Sprag is binding up, not disintegrating (though that may also be the case I suppose). I think every now and then the sprag will lose its grip on the crankshaft, and those are the times when I've been able to kickstart. When I get the "slipping" feeling through the kicker, it's smooth, so it doesn't feel like teeth slipping or grinding off a gear. More like a smooth slip. My best guess is that the sprag is locked up so tight that the clutch plates slip before the sprag does. So there's no movement in the duplex primary chain, which explains why the tappets won't budge when I get the "slipping" feel through the kicker. Thoughts?

Thanks guys.

           I agree with you. That's exactly the feeling you would get when the clutch plates slip, the kicker goes down, but the engine doesn't turn over. I've never experienced it with the Enfield (yet), but I have with harleys if the friction plates are glazed or the clutch springs aren't adjusted to put sufficient pressure on the pressure plate.

        The only thing I Do Not know is the actual mechanics around the sprag clutch "locking up" the engine & making the clutch slip only because I haven't had mine apart yet. I've only seen exploded views in the manuals.
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

Arizoni

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 09:32:27 PM »
Before totally jumping the gun and blameing the sprag clutch, check the clutch adjustment.

When the lever is released there should be some free play when you start to pull it in.
If the lever isn't a little loose when youlightly touch it, it may be adjusted to the point that it's not fully releasing the clutch.
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 12:26:22 AM »
Arizoni,

The clutch was tight (corrected it so it has a few milimeters of play), but the drive shaft still feels locked up. Oh well, still good to know...

RP

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2013, 02:53:04 PM »
I have read through all of this mainly because I had a run away electric start and wonder if I have damaged the sprag clutch.  This sprag clutch sounds like that mechanism one finds on top of a rope start lawnmower.  I have plans on replacing the starter solenoid, but wonder how does one check to see if the sprag has been damaged.  Also, after reading all the comments above, I have wondered if the electric motor itself was ever tested to turn over?
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb

tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2013, 04:24:30 PM »
I have read through all of this mainly because I had a run away electric start and wonder if I have damaged the sprag clutch.  This sprag clutch sounds like that mechanism one finds on top of a rope start lawnmower.  I have plans on replacing the starter solenoid, but wonder how does one check to see if the sprag has been damaged.  Also, after reading all the comments above, I have wondered if the electric motor itself was ever tested to turn over?

         I don't understand your last sentence? If the starter motor isn't turning you can't get the sprag noise. And "any" sprag noise is bad noise.

         That's why I've avoided the ES for 831 miles (I used it a few times in the winter of 2010/11 when I first got the bike running) & I always kill the engine with the decompressor, never the key. Once in a while, shutting down with the key will fire the plug coming up & it will drive the piston back down the wrong way. Horrible noise. Can't happen with the decomp.

          I could do it (rebuild the sprag), but I don't WANT to. Ever. I want the ES for things like killing it in traffic & other nightmares. Actually, I don't think the AVL was ever meant to have an electric starter.

           And low battery voltage is a starter's worst enemy.   
2008 ACE Head AVL Classic
1977 Shovelhead Hardtail Bobber

Buckeroo

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2013, 05:41:22 PM »
The last sentence/question was pertaining to the original post.  The writer says the starter has never worked, so I was asking if he had checked to see if the starter itself rolled over.  That question was not addressed to my own problems.  Sorry for the confusion.

         I don't understand your last sentence? If the starter motor isn't turning you can't get the sprag noise. And "any" sprag noise is bad noise.

         That's why I've avoided the ES for 831 miles (I used it a few times in the winter of 2010/11 when I first got the bike running) & I always kill the engine with the decompressor, never the key. Once in a while, shutting down with the key will fire the plug coming up & it will drive the piston back down the wrong way. Horrible noise. Can't happen with the decomp.

          I could do it (rebuild the sprag), but I don't WANT to. Ever. I want the ES for things like killing it in traffic & other nightmares. Actually, I don't think the AVL was ever meant to have an electric starter.

           And low battery voltage is a starter's worst enemy.
This bike was stored for 3.5 years.  It had fallen on its side for awhile. I claimed it about a year and a half ago. Thus the low miles and inexperienced owner.
2008 Bullet Electra Classic 500
Classic Frame and AVL motor
Electric Start
Electronic Ignition
5 speed
CV Carb

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 08:37:46 PM »
Update--

I pulled the electric start motor (left its housing in place to cover the hole in the primary), which instantly took away a lot of "resistance" I felt from the kicker. Still get the clutch slip feeling occasionally, but not as much now that the primary moves freely.

Still need to go in and pull the sprag and starting gears... I'll come to that later.

For now, the engine appears to have some starting issues. Since I pulled the electric starter, I've gotten it to run a handful of times, but always after a LOT of kicking. Whenever it has started, I've had to goose the throttle just to keep it running. Won't seem to idle even for a minute.

The gas in the tank was pretty old, so I used a siphon hose to suck it out and put in 2 1/2 gallons of premium (Shell, if that helps). Thought the fuel additives might help break up any old gunk in the carb.

Today I left the battery charging overnight, then drained the carb through the screw at the bottom of the float bowl. Gas came out yellow and seemed to have some particles in it. It started up after that (still with the hard starting and refused to idle). After it died out, I drained the carb again-- fuel was much clearer (almost like water), and smelled a bit better.

Guess my question at this point is, what gives? I did try replacing the spark-plug, just to see, but didn't seem to do anything special. If fresh gas is getting to the float bowl, is there any chance the carb is still my problem? I have some gumout carb and choke spray cleaner-- should I just spray some in the carb drain and see if that helps?

Oil in primary and crankcase have not been changed since I got the bike (I know I know, I have the 20W50 oil sitting on my counter, just don't have a new oil filter for the replacement). No chance that's causing this headache, is there?

Any suggestions appreciated,
RP

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 08:42:39 PM »
P.S.

Electrics also seem a little haywire. I'll charge the bike up, and my Junior Battery Tender will blink green (80% charge), then go to steady green (full charge), but the running lights will only sluggishly flick on. Not getting anything out the green neutral light (found neutral just fine though). Everytime the bike starts, however, seems like the battery goes almost dead flat again. No movement out of the amp meter, no lights, no horn.

Do I just need to get a new battery (tell me there's a cheap version out there for kickstart only!), or is this more likely a fuse or alternator issue?

Thanks,
RP

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 09:52:06 PM »
It sounds like your carburetor needs a good cleaning. 
While the additives in the new gasoline are adequate for keeping a clean fuel system clean they aren't strong enough to really remove the built up varnish and gum that often plugs up a carburetor that hasn't been used recently.

You could try removing the idle fuel mixture screw and directing the nozzle of your carb cleaner into the hole a few times.  That might open up the passages.  If you do this first  count the turns it takes to screw the screw in all the way.  You'll need to remember this when you reinstall the screw.  Then remove the screw and blast away.

Chances are, the rest of the carb's jets are also gummed up and this blasting of the idle circuit won't clean them up at all so the best approach is to remove the carb.  Then remove all of the jets and clean everything with the carb cleaner.

Your battery sounds like it's on its last gasp.
Motorcycle batteries don't have the robust features of the larger car batteries so they usually don't last as long.
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Superchuck

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2013, 02:45:01 AM »
I just bought this battery and after 200 miles it seems to be working great... it's ten bucks on amazon with another ten bucks shipping.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=YT4B-BS+AGM&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

It's a battery for a little 50cc scooter, but it seems to work just fine for kick-only motorcycles.  I got the idea from a triumph forum I came across while googling battery types.  It's super small too... about 1"x3"x4" so if you want you can get rid of the stock battery mount and use that space for storage (or just remove it altogether for a clean, naked look).

Also, as far as the carb's concerned a lot of people on here swear by 'seafoam.'  it's a miracle cure liquid fuel additive you can find at any auto parts store.  About ten bucks a bottle, and most people splash a glug or two into each tank of fuel.  From what I gather it cuts down on carbon deposits and extra gunk, etc.  Seems to work, but I haven't ever used it for a totally scummy carb.  I hear you'll want fresh gas and a larger percentage of seafoam... and burn it all through fairly quickly if you can.  Search seafoam on the forum and I'm sure you'll find a lot of 'how to' stuff on carb maintenance/protection.  May not fix your situation though... good luck!


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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2013, 08:13:01 PM »
Hey all,

Giving my bike another once over, I'm beginning to realize not everything is stock. It has a cone K&N air-filter, along with what looks like a classic exhaust setup. Check out the video on the previous page if I'm wrong. Carb looks stock to my eyes-- it has a black plunger-type choke knob (two settings), and a spring loaded throttle that twists open and rests on a sprung screw. Marked "Mikuni." Could post a picture if that helps.

My question is, is there a chance the previous owner stuck all of this on without re-jetting the carb? Just opening up the leather tool-kit there were a pair of jets (I think a pilot and main jet to my amateur eyes), one of them marked "Amal." I can post a picture of these as well. Will go down and see if either of them are marked with numbers. Seems strange that there would be Amal jets to go with a Mikuni carb though.

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2013, 08:22:10 PM »
Note-- the reason I thought the carb might be poorly jetted was that the last couple of times I've gotten her started (again, hard starting), I've heard was sound like a bunch of backfiring pops. Then the engine splutters out and dies. Could that still just be from a gunked up carbie or dead battery?

Larger "Amal" jet was marked 210, the smaller no-name jet was marked 107. Huh.

DanB

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 03:26:48 AM »
Sounds like a couple of things are going on. You really need to know what carb you have, clean it and tune it with the right jets. Amal and Mikuni jets are not interchangeable. Can you get us a pic? 

Check out this Mikuni manual for tuning: http://tinytim.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=1604&
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boggy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2013, 03:07:31 PM »
Hey RP,
Not to add to the confusion but I have something worth checking.  My breather hose was crimped under my seat last year and it caused me a ton of headaches. I was concentrated on the carb and missed the hoses.

Make sure all the hoses coming out of the engine and into the catch can and OUT of the catch can are clear.  The single hose leaving the catch can was pinched under my seat.  The symptoms were the idle was all over the place and if I tried to give it throttle, it would cut out. If I tried to leave it running, it would eventually cut out.  I freed it from the seat and all was good.  Give it a quick look.

Boggy
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:11:54 PM by boggy »
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2006 DRZ400SM

tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2013, 11:36:30 PM »
Sounds like a couple of things are going on. You really need to know what carb you have, clean it and tune it with the right jets. Amal and Mikuni jets are not interchangeable. Can you get us a pic? 

Check out this Mikuni manual for tuning: http://tinytim.forumcircle.com/viewtopic.php?t=1604&

           I think it's been established he has an '08 AVL with a BS-29 Mikuni.

            That manual's for VM carbs. That'll really screw him up.
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DanB

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2013, 04:11:45 AM »
True. The manual (3rd link) is for a VM and it won't match the CV carb. But there's lots of good basics there on how a carb functions, regardless of type. For the CV carb, check out the gallery and search for ucal. To me the video sounds like the carb needs a good clean and tune.
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2013, 12:20:14 PM »
True. The manual (3rd link) is for a VM and it won't match the CV carb. But there's lots of good basics there on how a carb functions, regardless of type. For the CV carb, check out the gallery and search for ucal. To me the video sounds like the carb needs a good clean and tune.

           That's what I've thought from the start. The bike needs a thorough, from square one, going through & tuneup.

            That's why I hesitate sometimes to get into discussions with folks who have bought used bikes & maybe aren't really familiar with the basics (or just don't want to hear the truth). They say "The bike is farting or sounds funny & dies all the time. What do you suggest"

              They seem to want some overarching "solution" that requires them to turn one screw or something when what needs to be done is get back to square one so you'll have a baseline. If the bike is used & you don't have a Specific History from the P.O. you've got to go through EVERYthing. Pull the plug - put a new one in. Pull the carb. Take it apart (go online & read EVERYthing). See where the needle is set, see what pilot & main are in it. Clean it, pet it, hug it, learn it. Set the valves (again. Go online & learn how to do it. It's not rocket surgery or magic),  buy manuals. Study them in bed at night. Immerse yourself in the bike.

          There usually ain't no one simple answer to these "it ain't runnin' right" questions. No magic bullet. You can't usually do "just one thing" with an unfamiliar bike that's not running right. And if you don't know the basics of the bike & how it works (& haven't even read any manuals or basic engine books) you're going to be at the mercy of dealers or people who are guessing the same as you are. And you're also not going to completely understand some of the answers you get on this forum. I've seen threads get so convoluted from the original question that you can't make any sense out of them any more.

         Sorry to ramble on, but I just had to get that off my chest.

         And I'm not directing this at that originator of this thread at all. It's just a general suggestion to new owners of new OR used REs. Part of ownership is to take responsibility to at least learn enough so you can understand the answers you get to the questions you ask & then can act on them to make the bike happy. Otherwise why ask?   

               
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:24:37 PM by tooseevee »
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2013, 02:42:12 PM »
I just bought this battery and after 200 miles it seems to be working great... it's ten bucks on amazon with another ten bucks shipping.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=YT4B-BS+AGM&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

It's a battery for a little 50cc scooter, but it seems to work just fine for kick-only motorcycles.


            I'm just about ready to bite the bullet on this, do away with all the stock battery stuff & put this little bat tree in my right side case.

            Two questions: Talk a little about the terminals. Are they bayonet type?

            Will it crank the starter at all? Like for maybe killing the engine in traffic?

             I changed my mind about posting this here & now I can't figure out how to Delete it.

             Is it some huge secret?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 02:51:58 PM by tooseevee »
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barenekd

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2013, 10:12:55 PM »
Nope, no deletions! But you can hit modify on the top right side of yor message and delete the contents and put something else in the box even if it says deleted.
Bare
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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2013, 10:23:03 PM »
Too late.  The en-ess-ay already logged it into their data base and will forever know you want to change your battery.
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2013, 11:25:39 PM »
Too late.  The en-ess-ay already logged it into their data base and will forever know you want to change your battery.

         Ha!  ;) They've alReady got enough on me to send in the black heeliocopters. They'll probably tell the DMV all the mods I've made & they'll come in the dark of night ("It was a dark & stormy night. The rain dripped....") & smash my bike. And then the IRS will audit me for voting for Goldwater.
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RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2013, 01:07:29 AM »
Update--

Pulled the carburetor off today for cleaning, and to see just how it was jetted. Continuing on the odd train, it looks like the main jet is a 130 (!). Didn't get a good look at the pilot jet. Honestly, I'm not even sure it was marked.

I gave the float bowl and jets a good cleaning, then reinstalled. Battery seems to be behaving today, so I kicked her over and got her running after I messed around with the throttle idle screw (the sprung screw the throttle spring rests on). Idled fine after I pulled the enricher (choke knob) out all the way.

Tried messing around with the airscrew (little flathead screw under the brass throttle plate, right?) to get the idle to sound right-- it didn't like that and died with a bit of dusty smoke from the air filter. Huh.

Questions-- is the jetting waaay too high? Running stock BS-29 Mikuni carb with the K&N air-filter, and what looks like the classic exhaust. I live in the rural Northeast, so I'm not exactly up there with elevation. Superchuck, you mentioned in another thread that you're running a 120 main jet-- should I be jetting this thing down? Seems to have a pretty hard time starting.

Also, in regards to the air screw, how tight is tightened all the way? When I tighten it to where it feels like it was before, seems like I hit a small spring (bit of a creaking sound). Should I keep twisting until it's locked down all the way before backing it off, or is the spring the extent of how far I should screw the airscrew in?

Thanks guys,
RP

tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2013, 01:39:39 AM »
Update--

Pulled the carburetor off today for cleaning, and to see just how it was jetted. Continuing on the odd train, it looks like the main jet is a 130 (!). Didn't get a good look at the pilot jet. Honestly, I'm not even sure it was marked.

Thanks guys,
RP

          That main jet is way too big. I don't know why there's a 130 in there, but it's too big.

          Yes. The pilot jet is marked. You might need a magnifying glass. It should be a 15 or a 17.5 - must know what it is.

           You also have to know what slide needle height is set at.
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2013, 01:44:41 AM »
Update--

Idled fine after I pulled the enricher (choke knob) out all the way.

Thanks guys,
RP

             It shouldn't hardly run at all with the enrichener pulled out once it's running. Something is not right if the enrichener has to be pulled to keep it running..
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2013, 01:53:21 AM »
Update--

Tried messing around with the airscrew (little flathead screw under the brass throttle plate, right?) to get the idle to sound right-- it didn't like that and died with a bit of dusty smoke from the air filter. Huh.

Thanks guys,
RP

              I think you're talking about the fuel/air mixture screw, but I'm not sure. That carb doesn't have a throttle plate.

              Anyway - it's a fuel screw so clockwise leans the mixture, counterclockwise richens the mixture.

              Depending on if your pilot is the right size (which you don't know), the mixture screw should be out 2 or 2 1/2 turns (a turn is 360 degrees) to give you a good initial starting point. 
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tooseevee

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2013, 02:00:42 AM »
Update--

Also, in regards to the air screw, how tight is tightened all the way? When I tighten it to where it feels like it was before, seems like I hit a small spring (bit of a creaking sound). Should I keep twisting until it's locked down all the way before backing it off, or is the spring the extent of how far I should screw the airscrew in?

Thanks guys,
RP

        You don't want to be cranking that screw in like you're tightening a bolt. You don't need to "lock it down". You want to just gently bottom it out. You should be able to gently feel it bottom out. Then watch the slot & count the half turns out (CCW).

        I've filed a little mark on a tiny brass handled screwdriver that matches the tip so I don't have to contort my head & neck like Rubber Man to see the slot in the screw.  I just watch the handle.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 02:02:53 AM by tooseevee »
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RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2013, 03:30:28 AM »
Tooseevee,

Thanks for the help-- really, I think this may be what's been driving me crazy about this bike!

Reading through some of the other collected wisdom on jetting, sounds like my carb is set WAY rich. Explains why the sparkplug has come out black and oily after the little amount of time I've run it. May also be the cause of my sprag woes (oh yeah, still have to deal with that), since I'm guessing running that rich caused a lot of backfiring.

I'm not as clear on how to adjust the needle height-- would I have to open the top of the carb to get to it? Sorry, still learning >.<

Sorry, when I said I pulled the enricher out to help it idle, I meant the black choke knob. I saw a tutorial that explained that Mikuni carbs technically have "enrichers" rather than "chokes." My fault

RP McMurphy

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2013, 06:29:39 PM »
Just checked the pilot jet again-- 17.5. Huh. And I double-checked the main-- still 130. Maybe it gets super cold in Ohio (where I bought the bike from).

Anyone know if the Mikuni jets sold on Nfield Gear are universal??

DanB

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2013, 02:48:16 AM »
I have a 17.5 pilot in a similar setup. My mixture screw is about 1/2 to 3/4 out. I suggest getting a good idle first. That main jet does sound too big but has nothing to really do on an idle. The idle circuit is generally pilot jet and circuit, mixture screw/needle, air and fuel float level. Assuming the circuits are clean, and there are no air leaks, that leaves the jet, screw or float level (I believe the level should be 17.1 mm).

Mikuni jet can be found on eBay, our host, jets r us and are not interchangeable generally. My carb notes are here:

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,16053.0.html
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Superchuck

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Re: New AVL Owner—Help!
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2013, 03:36:25 PM »
I just bought a handful of jets for my BS29 on nfieldgear... couldn't find an answer to the question so I just asked the guys on the phone and they confirmed that the mikuni jets they sell for the iron barrel bikes are the same that will fit on the AVL.

These are what I bought and they worked with my BS29: http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/genuine-mikuni-main-jets.html  Just call them and order over the phone- great guys and they won't steer you wrong.

I, too, have my mixture screw set to 1/2 turn out.  Anything richer and my bike won't maintain a healthy idle.

To answer your earlier question about adjusting needle height,  yes you have to open up the top cap of the carb.  I recommend taking it off and doing it inside on a clean table/etc because there are a bunch of tiny screws and stuff.  I don't know it well enough to give you a play-by-play of the disassembly, but make sure you hold down the cap once you take the fixing screws out... the spring in there will shoot it across the kitchen.  When you get down to the needle, you'll find there's a metal clip on it, and there will probably be a white plastic collar as well.  I got the collar to come off by pushing down on it really hard with a tiny wrench socket, but I ended up putting it back on after moving my clip to the richest setting (closest to the needle point).  Usually, the factory setting will have the metal clip in the middle of the three heights on the needle, and the plastic collar is there as an EPA regulation to dissuade tampering with the efficiency of your machine.

Best of luck, hope this helps!