HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

1982 Honda XL185


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 24, 2014, 04:24:05 PM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels  (Read 1372 times)

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4155
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« on: August 27, 2013, 12:35:35 PM »
Does using lead substitute for fuel have any positive effects on the old iron barrel motors? I was just thinking how on old cars if you do an original rebuild of the motor, you need to use lead substitute in the fuel to prevent burning up the valve train.  Just curious if the same applies to the iron barrels.

Scottie
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

gunnerasch

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 01:40:32 PM »
Very interesting question!  And one Id love to know the answer to!  And alcohol laden fuels on old bikes like these....

ERC

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1562
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 02:48:28 PM »
I used it in an old girlfriends car all it did was make it run lousy. I've always added Mystery Oil to the fuel. That seems to work.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 04:48:04 PM »
The right way is to use hardened parts that are designed for the no-lead, for instance hardened Stellite valves and valve seats during a rebuild.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
  • Karma: 1
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 10:47:48 PM »
All the lead substitute did for the car I tried it in was to foul the sparkplugs with some sort of red colored crap.

Never again! :(
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8675
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 01:28:09 AM »
The India-made Iron Barrel engines have valve seats which can handle the unleaded fuel.

We have found that some octane boosters also include lead for racing applications that are not "on road" use. This increases the octane levels a few points higher than ones without the lead.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4155
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 02:00:02 AM »
You must be referring to the Lucas octane booster.  I'm a huge fan of that stuff.  I couldn't use it in the dirt bikes because it works so well that it burns too hot in a2 stroke and will burn a hole in the piston.  Excellent for 4 strokes and cars tho.  I was already thinking of using it anyways.

Scottie
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 04:04:26 AM »
The India-made Iron Barrel engines have valve seats which can handle the unleaded fuel.

Thanks.  Nice to know that another mythical problem with the later Indian Enfields is just speculation.  I wouldn't expect any head made after the '70s to have a problem with unleaded.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Ice

  • Hypercafienated
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 5085
  • Karma: 0
  • Ride In Paradise Cabo, Don and Ernie
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 04:19:00 AM »
 Besides the harder valve seats our Iron Barrels are a lower compression motor with "soft" ramp cams and moderate valve spring seat pressures.

 Lead substitutes are of not needed.
I can break it better,,,,at night, in the rain, on the trail,, 20 miles from nowhere.

REA #136

"TIMEX", the '06 Iron Barrel Military that takes me everywhere I want to go... and some places I shouldn't.

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4155
  • Karma: 0
  • Go Fast & Look Good Doing It
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 11:41:58 AM »
Now that this thread has been brought back up.....

When I was at Performance Cycle a couple weeks ago getting my new gloves, I asked about octane booster verses mixing straight race fuel.  Apparently all the racers, street and dirt, prefer to use the VP Racing Fuel.  $60-$100 per 5gal can, but octane ratings are between 95-110.  He also showed me an octane booster by PJ1 that said right on the front of the label "Contains Lead Substitute".   He said this is what most guys were buying that weren't using race fuel and liked it.

Scottie
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8675
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 11:54:36 AM »
Now that this thread has been brought back up.....

When I was at Performance Cycle a couple weeks ago getting my new gloves, I asked about octane booster verses mixing straight race fuel.  Apparently all the racers, street and dirt, prefer to use the VP Racing Fuel.  $60-$100 per 5gal can, but octane ratings are between 95-110.  He also showed me an octane booster by PJ1 that said right on the front of the label "Contains Lead Substitute".   He said this is what most guys were buying that weren't using race fuel and liked it.

Scottie

The octane booster with lead that we have had excellent results from is Octane Supreme. It's very concentrated, so you only need a very small amount for the tank, and it's easy to carry the little bottle with you on a trip.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Bullet Whisperer

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 506
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 12:58:48 PM »
Personally, I don't believe in all the unleaded / valve seat hype. Years ago, a certain someone in the U.K. probably made lots of money by cashing in on the 'fear factor', when leaded petrol ceased to be available over here. Some of the adverts for unleaded valve seats were terrifying and made you think 'perhaps I'd better pull over in the layby and get the head off right now'. It was roundabout the time I had my Trident upgraded to 850 cc by Norman Hyde, who also had my cylinder head in for an upgrade. Upon enquiring if I should have unleaded valve seats fitted, his reply went along the lines of 'you could if you want, but we don't see the need for 'normal use' and are just monitoring the situation at present, if you don't get any valve seat reccession in the first couple of thousand miles, it should be ok'. I did over 8,000 miles with no change in the valve clearences and I wasn't gentle with it, either. [I had to put it away because I had a family starting and fuel was [and still is] very expensive and Tridents are thirsty beasts, one day, though].
 Many old British bikes [and others], as well as other machinery, had to run on all sorts of muck during and after WW2 and they survived ok, with many still around today.
 I think I still have a can of octane booster around somewhere, a left over from when our racers used petrol / avgas mix and unused since.
 If you want to have unleaded valve seats and / or additives etc, go for it, but I don't buy them myself.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:02:05 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 8675
  • Karma: 0
  • World leaders in racing or performance Bullets
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 01:12:11 PM »
BW,
We only use the leaded octane booster because the lead reacts with the other chemicals to give more octane boost than it would without lead.

Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AcePerformanceBullets/info

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4511
  • Karma: 1
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 10:21:50 PM »
I see why you like "Octane Supreme" Ace.
It actually does have tetraethyl lead in it !!

http://www.hi-flow.com/HP016OS.html

I have no doubt that some of the old engines that were made when tetraethyl lead was common do have valve seats that need the lead for its lubricating abilities.

It's good to know the new Royal Enfields valve seats are made for running on unleaded fuel.  Now, if they could only come up with a fuel level guage sending unit that can live in a gasoline/alcohol fuel mix we'd be in business. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 01:08:54 AM »
OK.  Here's the deal on no-lead in heads designed for lead.  The lead is not an Octane booster, it was a detonation inhibitor.  The lead did act to cushion the seating of the valves.  When no-lead was used in older, pre '74 engines, there was a tendency for the valves seats to get damaged.   In the late '70s as teenagers, all of my friends and I drove 1960's cars.  All of us ate valves using no-lead.  When pulling the heads, we found that engines like the old small block Chevy and my own Pontiac did not have valve seat inserts. The valve seat was cut into the cast iron heads.  Having the heads cut for hardened valve seat inserts during valve jobs fixed the problem.
Any engine built since 1974 to run on unleaded gas and having valve seat inserts does not need lead added to the gas.  It's BS from companies selling a product you don't need to idiots that believe everything they are told by Billybob's cousin's, grandpa who doesn't believe technology has improved since 1956.
Now ask me my opinion.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH