Menu

Members Rides

Emgo Trunk on Electra


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 23, 2014, 07:50:01 AM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels  (Read 756 times)

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 11:54:57 PM »
His name ain't Billybob.

It's Jimbob and he loves his 1956 Nash.  ;D ::)

They don't build 'um like that no more!  ;)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

Bullet Whisperer

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 02:28:05 AM »
Was there any lead in the petrol / paraffin / TVO used in all sorts of tractors, before, during and after WW2 ? Many of these machines worked their nuts off, pulling hard and getting hot without their valve seats falling apart - I am in the process of helping a friend to get his pre war Fordson running, so I know a bit about these type of machines as well - the Fordson has compression, even though the head may never have been off - how come?
 There is no lead in diesel, either and the heat in these engines is much greater than in petrol ones, yet you never hear anything about their valve seats. Our Enfield racers have run many seasons of racing on methanol [no lead] and their valve seats have never been changed and are fine [unlike the big ends, which do need replacing sometimes!].
 B.W.

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2832
  • Karma: 0
  • Wide Open Spaces = Wide Open Throttle
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2013, 06:53:13 AM »
Was there any lead in the petrol / paraffin / TVO used in all sorts of tractors, before, during and after WW2 ? Many of these machines worked their nuts off, pulling hard and getting hot without their valve seats falling apart - I am in the process of helping a friend to get his pre war Fordson running, so I know a bit about these type of machines as well - the Fordson has compression, even though the head may never have been off - how come?
 There is no lead in diesel, either and the heat in these engines is much greater than in petrol ones, yet you never hear anything about their valve seats. Our Enfield racers have run many seasons of racing on methanol [no lead] and their valve seats have never been changed and are fine [unlike the big ends, which do need replacing sometimes!].
 B.W.

I think the appropriate answer here would be that no farmer cares if his tractor smokes, just that it starts up and runs wells enough to get the work done.  I don't know a whole lot about diesels, but I do know that for how bad diesels smoke, how would you ever know if the valve seats were bad or not.

I'm with D the D on this one.  My grandpa has been hot rodding and demo derby racing since the 50's.  When he was first teaching me the performance side of Detroit muscle he had told me similar stories to what D the D was saying.  Basically, the older cars didn't even have valve guides as they were just machined into the heads.  When the change of fuel 1st occurred, the older (now vintage) cars would just destroy the valves and seats.  (I'm still unclear as to WHY exactly this happens, I just know it did happen)  It wasn't until the late 60's early 70's that the American auto manufacturers started putting actual valve guides and hardened seats in the heads.  You never hear of this problem anymore because any old car that has had the motor rebuilt since the 70's the guides and hardened seats were considered mandatory and were done as part of the motor build to make it more reliable and durable.

Scottie


The Blackhawk
1958 RE/Indian Trailblazer 711cc

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7420
  • Karma: 0
  • Ace Performance Bullets and Ace Fireball 535
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 08:15:26 AM »
They  started putting lead in the gasoline very early on. I think it was sometime in the 1920s.

I remember all the talk about valve seats when the transition to unleaded gasoline happened. I don't really know what the difference was in the valve seat materials, but it seemed to cause quite a stir.

Personally, I like the lead in the gas. But I do understand the toxicity of it, and why we can't be spewing tons of it into the atmosphere from every car on the road. I think a few cars and bikes using it for performance purposes wouldn't do much harm on that small of a scale.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  and the Joe Mondello Signature cylinder head for the Bullet.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

Bullet Whisperer

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »
Without wanting to go all political here, and this is just my perspective, not a rant or a 'pop' at anyone - they ban the lead in petrol for us on the roads in order to help 'save the planet', but they let all the aircraft discharge all their high octane fumes right up close to the ozone layer [compared to where us mere mortals on wheels are, relatively to it] - how many thousands of road vehicles would have to do how many hundreds of thousands of miles to equal one long distance flight in a Jumbo , for instance?
 Then there is all the crap one good volcano can put into the atmosphere, but as long as we only have unleaded in our tanks, everything is going to be fine, apart from some folks' valve seats, it would appear  ???
 B.W.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 03:09:46 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

Arizoni

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Karma: 0
  • "But it's a dry heat here in Arizona
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 05:31:48 PM »
For what it's worth, only the piston engined aircraft burn high octane fuel with lead in it.
It's getting to where they are few and far between any more so IMO they aren't adding enough lead to the air to cause a problem.

Modern jet engines burn jet fuel which has no lead in it at all.

As for the toxicity of lead, it is very small.  Because lead is heavy it rapidly settles to the ground and seldom gets into the air we breath.
The only way to get enough lead into a human body (without being shot) to cause any problem of any kind is to eat it.

The idea of people eating it was popularized back when a study of intelligence was conducted in the Chicago area.  The kids in the ghetto areas did rather poorly on the intelligence tests.

Because lead can hamper the development of the brain in children, the theory that the kids were eating the peeling paint from the buildings walls came about.
A massive program to ban all lead based paints was started resulting in almost no  lead in any paint today.  (This greatly raised the price of titanium which in the form of titanium-oxide now provides the white base for most of the paint sold.)

The anti hunters/firearms people have jumped onto the bandwagon and are now blaming the deaths of dozens of Condors on lead fragments the birds supposedly ate when they were eating the gut piles from hunted animals.  (Anyone who hunts knows there is almost no lead in these gut piles because jacketed hunting bullets retain almost 100 percent of the lead core and in over 90 percent of the shots the bullet ends up buried in the dirt or a tree on the far side of the animal).

With this theory in hand, the anti-hunters have managed to make the use of any bullet containing lead even in the smallest amount illegal in parts of California.  There is a lot of talk about making this ban nation wide in the US.

OK.  OK!  I'll get off the soapbox so we can get back to talking about Royal Enfields. :)
Jim
2011 G5 Deluxe
1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

ace.cafe

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 7420
  • Karma: 0
  • Ace Performance Bullets and Ace Fireball 535
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 09:00:02 PM »
This Octane Supreme stuff is really good if you want lead in the fuel.
Chumma is getting good results with just a small amount, and he's running a cold cranking pressure of 175 psi on the street in his Fireball, without pinging.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  and the Joe Mondello Signature cylinder head for the Bullet.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 07:55:18 PM »
Was there any lead in the petrol / paraffin / TVO used in all sorts of tractors, before, during and after WW2 ? Many of these machines worked their nuts off, pulling hard and getting hot without their valve seats falling apart - I am in the process of helping a friend to get his pre war Fordson running, so I know a bit about these type of machines as well - the Fordson has compression, even though the head may never have been off - how come?
 There is no lead in diesel, either and the heat in these engines is much greater than in petrol ones, yet you never hear anything about their valve seats. Our Enfield racers have run many seasons of racing on methanol [no lead] and their valve seats have never been changed and are fine [unlike the big ends, which do need replacing sometimes!].
 B.W.
Yes, there was lead in gas then.  Unleaded was called "White Gas" and was used in camp stoves and maybe some oddball machine.  Lead free didn't become common and wasn't normally used in cars until catalytic converters in the 1970's.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2832
  • Karma: 0
  • Wide Open Spaces = Wide Open Throttle
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2013, 03:42:03 PM »
As long as were on the subject...  I took The Blackhawk down to Gary Lee's Motor Pub & Grub Thursday night and as I was sitting on the patio, look at what I saw to my left.





Scottie


The Blackhawk
1958 RE/Indian Trailblazer 711cc

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 09:43:16 PM »
Retro pump!  Did you fill up on 79 octane gas?
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

High On Octane

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2832
  • Karma: 0
  • Wide Open Spaces = Wide Open Throttle
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 10:06:03 PM »
LOL  I'm pretty sure that thing hasn't run since the early 60's!   :D

Scottie


The Blackhawk
1958 RE/Indian Trailblazer 711cc

D the D

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1174
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2013, 10:14:06 PM »
 ;D Oh it looks like it hasn't run in decades.  I like the sign that says "contains lead".  That was there so you didn't use it in camp stoves, gasoline lanterns, and gasoline heaters.  They knew about lead poisoning back then, but we didn't have an EPA and Big Gov to protect us from our own stupidity.
'07 Iron Barrel Military (Deceased 14 September, 2013)
2014 Yamaha Bolt R Spec V-Twin
1975 XLCH

Bullet Whisperer

  • Grease Monkey
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 03:23:46 AM »
My Father used to put his toy lead soldiers in his mouth and suck and chew on them when he was a kid. Perhaps any damage caused was passed on and is the reason why we are mad about Enfields and old bikes in general in our family?   :o ::) ;) ;D
 B.W.

barenekd

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 4844
  • Karma: 0
Re: Lead Substitue In Iron Barrels
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 01:49:36 PM »
The lead in gasoline actually served as a buffer and lubricant in gasoline. It softened the hit of a valve against the seat and lubricated the stem. When lead left, so the did buffer/lube. The valves and seats had to be hardened up, and the valve guides introduced that with stood the load.
Any engine manufactured, or replacement parts for old engines will be made in the later materials. The only way you can run across the old stuff is to get an engine original made before the mid '70s that is still OEM stock.
Bare
2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Racer
2011 Black Classic G5 (RIP)
I refuse to tiptoe through life only to arrive safely at death
http://www.controllineplans.com