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Author Topic: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer  (Read 1716 times)

High On Octane

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UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« on: September 21, 2013, 01:07:50 AM »
Hey everyone!  Getting ready to take on my next project!  It looks like I very well may be picking up a '59 RE Chief, I just need to tie up the loose ends and make it happen.  As some of you know I am out to build a high HP vintage drag bike.  Most of you think I'm insane, but I'm all about having fun, going fast and building 1 of a kind rides.  My plans for this build are to build a bad ass, super fast RE twin that hasn't been done before.  I'M GOING TURBO!!!    ;D

The hardest part of making this work is going to be installing fuel injection.  My thoughts are to take an ECU and TB off of an wrecked UCE Bullet.  Not only should I be able to bolt it right up, but I'd be able to keep it Enfield.  Next concern.  Tuning.  I have to be able to have an ECU that I can interface with a laptop or programmer to create custom fuel maps.  Boosting the motor I will need to be running about 20% richer than a NA motor, I need to be able to control that.  Everything else should be cake work.

Ace, GHG, Scooter Bob and you other horse power junkies:
What are you're thoughts on availability of programming the RE ECU?  Do you know of any other donor options for a TB and ECU that are programmable or more performance oriented?  Or do you know of a carb that will handle boost without pushing the fuel out of the bowl?  Thanks!

Scottie
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 01:11:15 AM by Scottie J »
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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2013, 02:29:25 AM »
   Quoooool Scottie !! Wait....  Hold on.... Is this the SAME guy who didn't want to know nuffin' about EFI when I posted up that link ?!?  LOL !  ;)  Sounds like a awesome project !  Ummmmmmm........ Let me think. 

   The UCE ECU is for a single. AND it's not programmable. And you can't interface with it directly... you would need a piggy back controller.  And as much as I've looked into it, no one has hacked into or flashed the Keihin ECU ... For bikes, anyway.  So that is out I would think.  You could look into getting a stand alone ECU system.... like a Megga squirt? ...... BUT that's a lot of work, programming and tuning, and getting the sensors to adapt to your bike....... Ummmmmmm.  Another donor system perhaps ?     Ummmmm....... Dare I say it ?  A couple of throttle bodies off of a Bonneville, It's ECU and sensors. With a PC-V to control it all..... Maybe ?  Just a thought now..... might be a lot easier then starting from scratch with a stand alone ? .... Then again it might not?   Either way, it's ambitious going to EFI. But it WOULD be cool !   You gonna need access to a Dyno.........
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 02:39:37 AM »
Yes, it is me, Mr Anti-EFI.   LOL   Hey, I'm feeling ambitious and unless I can find a carb that can handle boost I'm forced to use FI.

I was just thinking a little while about how the new Bonnevilles are TB now.  I'll get in contact with my local triumph guy and see what he knows about those systems.  Wh FI.at is this mega squirt you speak of?

Scottie
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The Blackhawk
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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 02:58:30 AM »
  http://www.diyautotune.com/      It WILL be a lot of work, money and time to go this route.... just sayin'.

   The New Bonnies are using Keihin systems as well.... So it's not like your are really cheatin' on Enfield  ::)    And I'm not sure about the throttle body size they are using ?  But I think when they had carbs, they were 36mm ?  Try checking around on their RAT net forum.  Hell..... even a Sportster !   Should be a dime a dozen for their stuff....and a Kazzion MAPs to go along with it !


  Also.....   http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_EFI_PNP_kit.html  This guy seemed pretty sharp. He seemed very interested in doing something with an Enfield..... Interesting system.


 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:10:10 AM by gashousegorilla »
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 12:57:07 PM »
I think that ecotrons system for the 400cc-800cc just might be exactly what I'm looking for!  Obviously I'm still in the middle of researching all of this and it's going to a couple/few years before it's complete, but my goal is to build one of the most unique vintage British bikes with a kick ass track time.  This should be a fun adventure!

Scottie
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The Blackhawk
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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 02:57:39 PM »
  Should be a fun and an interesting build...
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2013, 05:35:53 PM »
I would think the throttle off the Bullet would be too small. You probably need something in the 32mm range if you're using two or 35mm+ with one.
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2013, 06:01:52 PM »
This is my long term plan too - I would like to retrofit fuel injection to my iron barrel - I am looking at two systems - the Megasquirt controller and the FreeEMS. Both can have custom logic code rather than simple static maps. They work with standard sensors, pumps and injectors. Definitely not a weekend job, but someday!


High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 06:24:29 PM »
The thing I like about the Ecotron system is that it comes with the software and laptop interface cable that I will be able to hook up my laptop right to it and do my own custom fuel maps.  HUGE plus!  They also have different size TBs and injectors depending on your needs.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 06:34:27 PM »
The thing I like about the Ecotron system is that it comes with the software and laptop interface cable that I will be able to hook up my laptop right to it and do my own custom fuel maps.  HUGE plus!  They also have different size TBs and injectors depending on your needs.

Scottie


  Yeah, it seems like a pretty cool system.  I Emailed the guy , Back and forth a few times.  The hardest part is going to be creating the base map....That your going to need a Dyno for. Or pull your hair out trying to do it without one.  Then his auto-tune feature should be easier to use. Also adapting his TB's to the bike will be tricky... and I'm sure he can recommend which injector to go with.

  Also , the guy is in the Detroit area.........
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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 06:58:48 PM »
We are working with a custom programmable ECU for our UCE build, and it will plug into the UCE harness and use all the UCE sensors and injectors and stuff.
So, it might be adaptable for a twin, but we need to get some time on it to see.
Maybe we could use two of them, and set the timing differently on each cylinder.
One throttle body and injector on each cylinder, and a shared plenum from the blower.

When we get to the programming part of our UCE project, I'll let you know what we think.
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gremlin

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 07:28:08 PM »
......... Do you know of any other donor options for a TB and ECU that are programmable or more performance oriented? ........


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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 07:32:32 PM »

www.microsquirt.com

Right.
Microsquirt is an open-source DIY EFI system that is well supported.
Well worth looking into.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2013, 08:25:35 PM »
Hooking up an aftermarket TB to my bike will not be a problem.  Alex (my coworker, friend, engine guy, Subaru Turbo Guru) and I are both talented custom fabricators.  He's very good with aluminum TIG and I can cut, bend, hammer and weld steel all day long.  I guess what really grabs my attention with the ecotron set up is that it is EVERYTHING you need except plumbing for $700!  I'll probably get the motor running without the turbo first with the auto tune feature to get a good baseline.  Then install the turbo and map the ECU by crunching numbers according to the original baseline.  Holy shit I'm excited!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2013, 09:42:11 PM »
I'm excited too.
Please continue to share the experience with us !!!!

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2013, 11:50:05 PM »
Hooking up an aftermarket TB to my bike will not be a problem.  Alex (my coworker, friend, engine guy, Subaru Turbo Guru) and I are both talented custom fabricators.  He's very good with aluminum TIG and I can cut, bend, hammer and weld steel all day long.  I guess what really grabs my attention with the ecotron set up is that it is EVERYTHING you need except plumbing for $700!  I'll probably get the motor running without the turbo first with the auto tune feature to get a good baseline.  Then install the turbo and map the ECU by crunching numbers according to the original baseline.  Holy shit I'm excited!

Scottie

   There you go .  Go, have fun and put some shove in that motor !  8)   ;)

 
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 12:47:17 AM »
The plans right now are to run 8:1 - 9.5:1 pistons, start at 5psi of boost and hopefully settle in around 8-10psi of boost.  GHG or Ace Do you know if I can offset the camshaft/s when assembling the motor to change timing/duration in order to run/redline say 8000 RPMs?  I plan on balancing the crankshaft to 10,000 RPMs.  I'm also considering using the 1 piece alloy cylinders for the interceptors, I emailed Hitchcocks and they said it bolts up to the 700 case but no one has done it as if yet. 

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 01:11:49 AM »
The plans right now are to run 8:1 - 9.5:1 pistons, start at 5psi of boost and hopefully settle in around 8-10psi of boost.  GHG or Ace Do you know if I can offset the camshaft/s when assembling the motor to change timing/duration in order to run/redline say 8000 RPMs?  I plan on balancing the crankshaft to 10,000 RPMs.  I'm also considering using the 1 piece alloy cylinders for the interceptors, I emailed Hitchcocks and they said it bolts up to the 700 case but no one has done it as if yet. 

Scottie
You can rephase the cams, but there's only just so much that you can do with just that.
Generally, boosted engines need more lift and larger than normal exhaust valve, along with the rephased cam timing.
It can all be done.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 01:14:20 AM »
I already planned on doing a full port and valve job.   ;)   Now check THIS out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290778026778&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

 ;D ;D ;D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 02:55:30 AM »
 Ummmmmmm ?....... Now you got me thinking.

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_RHB31_VZ21_turbocharger.html
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 03:50:34 AM »
I see some rods poking out holes in cases.......
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 06:00:55 AM »
 We'll have to search the threads here but I seem to remember someone mentioning the bottom end of the UCE being engineered and built for 60-65 horsepower.
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 10:34:02 AM »
Ummmmmmm ?....... Now you got me thinking.

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine_RHB31_VZ21_turbocharger.html

"Free shipping for the turbo if you buy an EFI kit together!"   8)

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
The exhaust pulses from a low-revving single are timed fairly wide apart, which is not ideal for spooling up a turbo. I think a supercharger would be a better application.

The small turbo should work okay with the twin, though.

Bottom end strength of the twin may come into question when stressed to that level.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 01:57:41 PM »
Now when you guys say "weak bottom" end I think of crappy rods that like to stretch and break.  Am I missing something here?  Have crankshafts exploded out of these cases?  Like I said I plan on having the crankshaft balanced to 10,000 RPMs and I'm hoping to put some Carrillo rods in there.  Is this not good enough?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 03:42:41 PM »
"Free shipping for the turbo if you buy an EFI kit together!"   8)

  Yeah, he..he..he.. I might be able to knock off two birds with one stone. Supercharging on the cheap with NOS !!.........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyR0U_fYtwY
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 04:45:41 PM »
I thought about NOS, but it has it's down falls too.  Such as you only get the extra HP when you use it, you have to make a special trip to the hot rod shop when you need to refill.  I want to turbo.  Mainly because it's never been done before and I want to be the 1st to do it.  People say it can't be done, I call BS.  Sure, I'm probably going to spend $5000 on just the motor, but it's going to be so worth it!  I'll have the ONLY turbo Enfield twin in the world.  How effing cool is that?!  I'm going to make this happen, even if it means hours upon hundreds of hours of research,  custom fabrication and machining, I want to make this happen.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2013, 05:44:30 PM »
 +1..  Extremely Effing cool !.. Turbo's more practical for the street. Plus, you don't have a trunk to store all those bottles. :-\  I've seen them rigged up and hanging on a bike. But it looks like crap.  The sport bike guys, hide 'em under the rear cowl ?  But..... I doubt that would work for you.
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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 05:49:19 PM »
Here you go : http://www.xbhp.com/talkies/thumpers-two-stroke-exotics/17262-presenting-worlds-first-supercharged-enfield-rr700-prostreet.html

The owner of this bike posted it here on this forum a while back. I dont know how it turned out in the long run but you might want to consider reaching out to him......
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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 06:08:30 PM »
  Pretty cool...........
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 06:17:12 PM »
Yeah I've seen that bike before.  He claims it's a 700 but it's clearly a thumper, so maybe he has a custom cylinder?  It would be nice to talk to him about his build, but I'm not sure how much help he would be for my build as he has a bolt on carburated blower.  Kind of a different ball game, apples and oranges.  Still pretty cool, definitely a 1 off build.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 09:33:09 PM »
It is a single.  The owner says in his post about it,

"You are right there mate, well partially...standard bore of 500 is 84mm...this one has been bored to 87mm...to the old 535 size...it has been over stroked...stroke has been lengthened from 94 odd mm to 115 mm.

so if you apply your class X maths, it yields a cc of about 684 cc."

I checked his numbers and he is right.  It would be called a "700".
Jim
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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 09:41:57 PM »
That's a big Thumper!  Cool!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2013, 01:00:35 PM »
Looks like everything is coming together as far as picking up the new bike.  Should know in a week or two when it's going to be shipped me.  Yay!

Also, I was looking into that Ecotrons EFI system a little more yesterday.  Turns out they have a Bluetooth module that you can hook up to the ECU and a Droid app that turns your smart phone into a Bluetooth data logger.  Bitchin'!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2013, 01:29:29 PM »
The current owner sent me some pics this morning.  Here she is!





Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2013, 02:51:16 PM »
Looks like everything is coming together as far as picking up the new bike.  Should know in a week or two when it's going to be shipped me.  Yay!

Also, I was looking into that Ecotrons EFI system a little more yesterday.  Turns out they have a Bluetooth module that you can hook up to the ECU and a Droid app that turns your smart phone into a Bluetooth data logger.  Bitchin'!

Scottie


  Thats pretty wild.... I 'll tell ya, it's inevitable. We will be tuning our bike's with our smart phones in the not too distant future.   Speed calculators... GPS... HP estimators , based on user inputs and such. We'll be making fuel trims through wireless widebands and such !!  From what I hear, power commander is working on, or already has a system. But, it will kill it's at the shop Dyno tuning business.....
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crush02342002

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2013, 01:11:11 AM »
I love the idea of boost on a bike, but that bike to me says resto or ratrod....hmmm turbocharged ratrod.....think I just drooled a little on my laptop.

just a thought but AEM has a powersports piggy back that may work. its cheap and from my tuning experience aem software is fairly easy to understand and user friendly. Iv tuned quit a few 4 banger cars with the AEM fic. its a decent unit for the price however its processor is slow at times.
just throwing an idea into the pot

High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2013, 02:20:35 AM »
Cool, thanks for the info.  I'll look into that.  If I'm not mistaken I believe AEM is owned by K&N.  I remember when I worked for Advance Auto Parts every time I looked up an AEM filter or intake it was always listed with a K&N part #.  IDK  Maybe just a coincidence.

I've been talking to Alex a lot at work about this project, and as long as we get everything perfect in the bottom end (I've been researching the hell out of this  ;) ), he's confident we can acheive 100hp with this Garret turbo at around 8psi of boost.  The trick is going to be getting the camshafts timed in an advanced position but keeping the spark slightly retarded to help spool the turbo.  Man, I am living my dream right right now!  Breaking into uncharted territory and attempting what everyone has previously said is impossible!

Also considering having the frame and rear section cadmium plated.  :D  And, AND...  Look at what I found looking thru the Hitchcocks catalog today.



That fairing along with a set of clip ons and rear sets ought to give me just the right set up for what I'm after!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
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Arizoni

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2013, 04:39:33 AM »
Since turbochargers get their power from the total mass airflow of the exhaust, look for the smallest one available.

Many of the ones used on the current automobiles need the 2000+cc's of engine displacement to operate at max efficiency.  Your 700cc engine probably  won't have enough mass flow to get one up to max speed.

They would be hard to find but you might try getting the turbo off of a old Honda CX500 or CX650 Turbo.
They would be just the size you need and the information I found on the web said they would produce 19 PSI output pressure.

While your scrounging those old Honda CX turbo parts you might try to also get the fuel injection system off of the same bike.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 04:43:11 AM by Arizoni »
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Ice

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2013, 05:34:44 AM »
 This should spool up in a jiffy



For lighting the mix I suggest talking to Garry at IDS.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:39:24 AM by Ice »
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ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 11:12:29 AM »
I'm not sure where the idea came from about advancing the cam timing, but a boosted engine typically wants exactly the opposite.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2013, 01:57:24 PM »
I'm not sure where the idea came from about advancing the cam timing, but a boosted engine typically wants exactly the opposite.

Yes, when boosting a motor you want the spark a little more retarded than usual.  The idea of advancing the camshafts was more of a thought/question as to whether it would help me achieve a higher RPM redline or not.  The trick with turbos, as you probably know Ace, is to get the happy medium between a small enough volume turbine that will spool quickly, but big enough in order to produce respectable boost.  Much like your Fireballs, it's not as simple as throwing parts at a motor and saying "That will make 50hp".  There is a lot of math (volume figures) that needs to be calculated before the build ever takes place.  If it doesn't add up on paper, it will never work well in the real world.  Fortunately, Alex knows all these numbers and calculations to base mass, flow and RPMs with the cylinder displacement and head flow.

He was also telling me that higher lift cams can help, but with boost, it's more important as to how smooth the air can flow thru the heads/cambers as opposed to HOW MUCH air can travel thru.  Because when boosting a motor, you are forcing air into the engine, it is not as important to have a higher lift cam because the air is stilling being forced into the same area.  Therefor adding larger valves would essentially have the same effect on a boosted motor as having higher lift on a NA motor.  Both are flowing more air, just in slightly different ways.

Ice - What turbo charger is that?  Always curious about more options.  :)

This is directly from Garrett in regards to their turbo I'm looking at, it is the smallest turbo Garrett makes. 
Quote
The Garrett GT1241 Turbocharger is well-suited for 0.4 to 1.2 liter displacement applications including motorcycles, snowmobiles and other small frame applications. The turbocharger comes complete with internal wastegate and an actuator. The recommended horsepower for this turbocharger is 50 to 130 horsepower.

After using the formula provided by Hitchcocks, I was able to figure out that the actual engine size of a 700cc twin with a +.040 bore with the standard 90mm stroke is good for 746cc, or .746 L.  This Garret turbo is actually perfect for my engine size.  The turbo from the Ecotrons system is only rated up to 600cc and won't flow enough air to make efficient power at higher RPMs.  If I had a Bullet Thumper then the Ecotrons turbo would probably work well, but I'm looking to be breaking some speed records, and for the 1st time ever, I'm ready to throw down some serious dough to build the meanest fastest Enfield ever built.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2013, 11:50:17 PM »
Yes, when boosting a motor you want the spark a little more retarded than usual.  The idea of advancing the camshafts was more of a thought/question as to whether it would help me achieve a higher RPM redline or not.  The trick with turbos, as you probably know Ace, is to get the happy medium between a small enough volume turbine that will spool quickly, but big enough in order to produce respectable boost.  Much like your Fireballs, it's not as simple as throwing parts at a motor and saying "That will make 50hp".  There is a lot of math (volume figures) that needs to be calculated before the build ever takes place.  If it doesn't add up on paper, it will never work well in the real world.  Fortunately, Alex knows all these numbers and calculations to base mass, flow and RPMs with the cylinder displacement and head flow.

He was also telling me that higher lift cams can help, but with boost, it's more important as to how smooth the air can flow thru the heads/cambers as opposed to HOW MUCH air can travel thru.  Because when boosting a motor, you are forcing air into the engine, it is not as important to have a higher lift cam because the air is stilling being forced into the same area.  Therefor adding larger valves would essentially have the same effect on a boosted motor as having higher lift on a NA motor.  Both are flowing more air, just in slightly different ways.

Ice - What turbo charger is that?  Always curious about more options.  :)

This is directly from Garrett in regards to their turbo I'm looking at, it is the smallest turbo Garrett makes. 
After using the formula provided by Hitchcocks, I was able to figure out that the actual engine size of a 700cc twin with a +.040 bore with the standard 90mm stroke is good for 746cc, or .746 L.  This Garret turbo is actually perfect for my engine size.  The turbo from the Ecotrons system is only rated up to 600cc and won't flow enough air to make efficient power at higher RPMs.  If I had a Bullet Thumper then the Ecotrons turbo would probably work well, but I'm looking to be breaking some speed records, and for the 1st time ever, I'm ready to throw down some serious dough to build the meanest fastest Enfield ever built.

Scottie

I am familiar with the math and the techniques.
I'm sure he knows that the intake lobe center angle for a boosted engine is almost always much wider than what is standard on the Enfield twins, and that on boosted engines the exhaust valve is almost always larger than it would be on a normally aspirated engine, along with a more advanced exhaust cam.  And that the overlap period is really needed to be very short on a boosted engine with a crossflow hemi, to reduce blowing too much out the exhaust pipe during overlap.
Wide lobe center angles are the order of the day for boosted engines.
I'm sure he'll agree.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 11:56:37 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 12:45:06 PM »
I am familiar with the math and the techniques.
I'm sure he knows that the intake lobe center angle for a boosted engine is almost always much wider than what is standard on the Enfield twins, and that on boosted engines the exhaust valve is almost always larger than it would be on a normally aspirated engine, along with a more advanced exhaust cam.  And that the overlap period is really needed to be very short on a boosted engine with a crossflow hemi, to reduce blowing too much out the exhaust pipe during overlap.
Wide lobe center angles are the order of the day for boosted engines.
I'm sure he'll agree.

I've heard him mention most of that stuff, I'll definitely show him your message though just to make sure.

Ace - Are you familiar with the math for gearing bikes?  Is there some kind of formula like HP/speed=gearing for this?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 01:57:51 PM »
I've heard him mention most of that stuff, I'll definitely show him your message though just to make sure.

Ace - Are you familiar with the math for gearing bikes?  Is there some kind of formula like HP/speed=gearing for this?

Scottie
Yes.
Typically you want to set your gearing so that you hit top speed in top gear a few hundred rpm past the rpm at which you reach your peak hp. Or, if you can't do that, then hit top speed at the rpm at which you hit your peak hp.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 02:00:50 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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gashousegorilla

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2013, 01:42:28 PM »
I am familiar with the math and the techniques.
I'm sure he knows that the intake lobe center angle for a boosted engine is almost always much wider than what is standard on the Enfield twins, and that on boosted engines the exhaust valve is almost always larger than it would be on a normally aspirated engine, along with a more advanced exhaust cam.  And that the overlap period is really needed to be very short on a boosted engine with a crossflow hemi, to reduce blowing too much out the exhaust pipe during overlap.
Wide lobe center angles are the order of the day for boosted engines.
I'm sure he'll agree.

I showed Alex your post and he definitely agrees, and so do I.  So that leads me to this question:  There isn't much for cams out there.  Hitchcocks said they have a "racier cam, but not radical" which I guess is better than nothing.  Or do I take the factory camshafts and have them reground and sacrifice a small amount of lift for a bit more duration?

I talked to a guy from CP-Carrillo the other day.  Rough ball park, I'm looking at $1300 for custom rods and pistons.   :o  A bit more than I anticipated, but needed and worth it.  Carrillo guarantees their rods and pistons to be balanced within +/- 1gram.  And because it's a custom application, I should be able to have the rods custom cut to fit the -.010 grind on the crank/rod journals making a stronger bottom end than running oversized bearings.  Sill haven't decided if I want to attempt fitting the 1 piece alloy Interceptor cylinder.  It'd definitely be stronger and dissipate heat faster, (plus no one has ever put those cylinders on a 700 block) BUT I'm also thinking of having the engine case and cylinders cadmium plated too which I think would look bitchin'.  Decisions, decisions.....

Scottie 
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2013, 02:13:26 PM »
I showed Alex your post and he definitely agrees, and so do I.  So that leads me to this question:  There isn't much for cams out there.  Hitchcocks said they have a "racier cam, but not radical" which I guess is better than nothing.  Or do I take the factory camshafts and have them reground and sacrifice a small amount of lift for a bit more duration?

I talked to a guy from CP-Carrillo the other day.  Rough ball park, I'm looking at $1300 for custom rods and pistons.   :o  A bit more than I anticipated, but needed and worth it.  Carrillo guarantees their rods and pistons to be balanced within +/- 1gram.  And because it's a custom application, I should be able to have the rods custom cut to fit the -.010 grind on the crank/rod journals making a stronger bottom end than running oversized bearings.  Sill haven't decided if I want to attempt fitting the 1 piece alloy Interceptor cylinder.  It'd definitely be stronger and dissipate heat faster, (plus no one has ever put those cylinders on a 700 block) BUT I'm also thinking of having the engine case and cylinders cadmium plated too which I think would look bitchin'.  Decisions, decisions.....

Scottie
You have 2 separate camshafts, intake cam and exhaust cam. These can be re-phased to advance or retard them in relation to each other. This is what we do all the time with Bullets, except it's only one cylinder. The concept is the same, and it can be done on your twin too.
They won't need re-grinding unless you want to add lift, or change things more than a simple re-phasing. There are pro and con points to each decision.

Regarding the alloy cylinder, that's a good thing in general, for both light weight and cooling. However, if you are using alcohol fuel, then the need for improved cooling is much reduced because the fuel itself gives a lot more cooling than the gasoline. And since you are boosting, and there's no real way to intercool the intake on this bike, you will need alcohol fuel for this application and also to help cooling. Even so, if you can fairly easily make that alloy cylinder work on your bike, it would probably be a good idea to have it.

If you want some help with this re-phasing stuff, and the possibilities, just email me. I really think that you will need higher lift too, for the best results, so you might want to look at re-grinds that are available, and consider the options of re-phasing them to suit the boosting. I don't think that there are any cams out there for your bike that were ground with boosting as the intended. application
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:15:41 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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High On Octane

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2013, 01:05:05 PM »
{Scottie discretely walks into the room and whispers}   It's happening.........     8)

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

gremlin

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Re: UCE Throttle Body, ECU and Programmer
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2013, 02:14:43 PM »
awesome.
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