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Author Topic: Removing Electric Start  (Read 957 times)

Guaire

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Removing Electric Start
« on: September 24, 2013, 08:15:28 PM »
I've opened the primary, removed the clutch plates and stator. Looks like I'll need to remove the rotor bolt and the clutch center bolt. Do I need to remove a circular spring #9?
Here's a link from Pete Sindal = "However, if clutch hub removal will not be required (as in replacment of primary chain, and/or engine sprocket) the clutch basket retaining spring (9) may be removed, which will free the basket to be withdrawn off the hub (along with primary chain and engine sprocket) leaving the hub on the gearbox mainshaft."
There are two of these circular springs. I removed one.
    Will I have to machine off the third gear from the primary driving sprocket? Here's a pic.

I finally got around to removing my electric start on my 2004 Bullet ES iron barrel. My excuse is my back got grumpy at the end of July. It was so bad, I didn't know if I had taken my last ride. I'm doing physical therapy and doing better. I've done some riding on my Honda and today I started on the ES bad sprag removal.
Cheers,
Bill


 

RGT

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 11:48:15 PM »
if you have no reason to take off the hub you can remove 9 and just pull the basket off with the chain. If you take off the nut you can remove the whole clutch basket and hub as an assembly and you won't need to remove 9. Are you switching your inner primary cover to a kick start only cover? if not you don't need to cut off the drive gear from the front sprocket. If you are swapping to a Kick start cover I don't know if you need to cut the gear, but thinking back to when I was having trouble getting the right sprocket for the English made crank in my Fireball I think you might have to cut off the gear...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:14:40 AM by RGT »

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 12:26:43 PM »
"If you take off the nut you can remove the whole clutch basket and hub as an assembly and you won't need to remove 9."
  Aha, I'll keep #9 on.
I'll just use the old primary case.
Thanks, RGT.
I'll go ahead and remove the starter.
Bill

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 02:48:29 PM »
The latest hang up is getting the engine sprocket out. The duplex drive sprockets move with the single drive sprocket that drives the electric start gear. The clutch basket and the engine sprocket can slide outward, but the engine sprocket runs into the outer of the two electric start gears. How can I get around it?
  I bought the digital Sindal manual, but it doesn't seem to have how to remove the ES model primary past the double sprockets for the ES.
Here's some pics... The 'manual' for this seems to be the forum!
Cheers,
Bill

 

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 02:50:45 PM »
OOps. Here's the other pic...

Arizoni

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 04:47:27 PM »
Doesn't the gear teeth on the crankshaft sprocket engage the teeth on the starter drive gear?

The pictures seem to show the starter drive gear that is in the group of gears that connect to the starter motor, outboard of the gear on the crankshaft.
I would expect it to be in line with that gear.

If it was in line with the crankshaft gear that would put it behind the duplex chain and its sprocket.  It would also align the teeth of the two gears so that the crankshaft gear along with the duplex sprocket and chain could just slide out.

Try rotating the gear in the upper left side of the photo to align its teeth with the crankshaft gear and then push it back towards the center of the bike.
Jim
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1999 Miata 10th Anniversary

motomataya

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 05:36:35 PM »
The outside gear engages the starter motor. there is another gear with the sprag clutch inside that gear engaging the gear on the crank

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 05:39:15 PM »
That seems the way to do it, but... there are two driven sprockets of the ES, an inner and an outer. The inner engages the engine sprocket and the outer is out of sync 'time' with the inner. The engine sprocket slides toward me (out) then gets stopped by the outer driven sprocket. The gaps aren't lined up.
"Try rotating the gear in the upper left side of the photo to align its teeth with the crankshaft gear and then push it back towards the center of the bike."  I did that, but the gap in the teeth doesn't line up like the inner gear. I know, it's weird.
Bill

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 05:54:46 PM »
In this pic, the camera is on the right side, in front of the barrel, looking left to the opening where the end of the starter motor was. The photo shows two Allen screws I removed as well. I can see a third one, harder to access between the inner primary and the crankcase. That one is still in there.
  Problem: the inner starter gear is fine. It engages the engine sprocket. As the engine sprocket moves out, the second starter gear isn't giving me a gap to slide out through. The inner has the gap, the outer always has a tooth in the way. They turn together.
Bill

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 05:55:23 PM »
Once more with photo..

RGT

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2013, 01:16:03 AM »
I am drawing a blank on how I did it but I can't remember there being any issue in removing the primary drive? can you remove the engine side cover on the back of the primary? I can't remember if you can access all the bolts with the inner primary cover still on the bike, but if you can that would let the drive gear come off the shaft....

ERC

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 08:06:52 AM »
Your clutch, engine sproket,chain etc.  should slide out with the gears lined up. Then pull the primary by removing the allen head screws and the nut from the stud on the gearcase if it's 5 speed. Then the sprag cover to remove the sprag and gears.   ERC
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Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 08:40:43 AM »
ERC - That's what I was expecting. But, the engine sprocket and clutch move easily, but hangs up on the outer gear wheel (toward me) because the gaps are not in 'sync' with the inner gear wheel.

motomataya

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 09:38:59 AM »
The two gears are only locked together in one direction. You can turn the outer gear, one direction, to line things up.

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2013, 09:51:34 AM »
Thanks, motomataya, I'll give that a go.

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2013, 12:03:43 PM »
That worked!
Any progress I've made comes from the help here: motomataya, ERC, RGT and Arizoni.
   The primary is off. The gear that drives the starter is out. Visible are three shims. The paired driven and drive gears are visible. How do those come out? It acts like one part. I checked the parts fiche at Hitchcock's. It looks like two pressed gears. There has to be enough room to spread them apart and remove them!
  Anyone remember how to split these two gears?

ERC

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2013, 01:25:15 PM »
That gear should come right out with the small cover on the back removed.  ERC
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Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2013, 02:11:48 PM »
The cover is gone, but these two gears on the same shaft have nowhere to go. If I could pull the shaft, it might come out, but I can't. If I could find the right puller, I could push the shaft down. I don't know if that would accomplish anything.
  Here's pics of both sides of the inner primary case and the gears.

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2013, 02:25:23 PM »
Parts 9, 12 and 13 are visible in the photos. Here's a fiche from Hitchcock's.


Arizoni

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2013, 02:35:03 PM »
Does the hole in the shaft in that large gear have a thread in it?  If it does, it may be intended for a puller screw that would allow a puller to bridge the shaft and push against the face of the gear.
If the shaft (#13 in the Hitchcock picture) was pulled out of the gear the gear would easily slide out of the housing.
Jim
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ace.cafe

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2013, 02:45:37 PM »
That whole gear cluster and the center shaft behind the hump just pulls out after you have the cover plate off the back. You can usually just pull on the shaft, and it all comes out.
If it's stuck, there's nothing holding it there but friction. Get a good set of vise grips and put a piece of leather on the shaft, and lock the pliers on and pull the shaft out and the gears will come out with it as a unit.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  and the Joe Mondello Signature cylinder head for the Bullet.

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Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2013, 04:35:09 PM »
Way Cool! Gotta button up today. I'm doing that tomorrow.
Thanks, everyone.... I'll weigh the 'removed' parts when I'm done.
Bill

neil

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 05:04:23 PM »
Hi Bill:
You'll have about half of the weight reduction with what you have accomplished so far. The rest is in replacing the "lump" inner primary with kick only inner primary and by tossing the heavy oem battery for a light weight jell battery. That will get you the 20 to 25 lb reduction. Also center of gravity moves back and lower in the frame to improve handling.
No more sprag worries and improved handling, ya gotta love it.

Neil and Buzzy the Bullet.

n1acguy

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 10:11:45 PM »
Yep, seems like I lost 20- 25 lbs when I did mine.
If you ride it regularly the smallest battery you can find is enough.
These little ones are probably even good enough for an occasional ride if you put a tender on it.
My 2˘ YMMV

neil

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2013, 09:41:17 AM »
Second to that ! ! !
My battery is small enough to place in one of the tool boxes out of sight. Gives the bike that see through look mentioned in the E.G. catalogue. I love it.

Neil

cyrusb

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2013, 12:58:18 PM »
Like this?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:35:07 AM by cyrusb »

Chuck D

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 01:48:47 PM »
2006 Bullet Sixty-5 w/ Ace "Fireball 535" Kit (#10)
(Head  back at Mondello's for the "Raised Port" and ratio rocker upgrade. Stay tuned!)

'76 Honda CB550Four K


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Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 02:46:03 PM »
Great pic of the open look. I'll go with either a Ballistic, lithium iron or a gel on the battery. It was set up with a massive Sears Diehard because of the electric start.
  I just got back from my trip to Alabama. I'm ready to work on it tomorrow. I still have to remove the starter cable, solenoid and a bit of other wiring.
  My welding buddy removed the gears by cutting them like a pie. The shaft never gave up the gears. He tossed the gears when he was done.
  Here's a paste in from a link out of the CD manual from nfield gear.
"Remove the starter, the primary case outer half, the alternator, the engine sprocket, the clutch and transmission sprocket and the primary case inner half. This entire process is documented and illustrated in section 5 of the Bullet Electra manual and section 3 of the Bullet Service manual which are both available from CMW and everything you need to know will also be found in Pete Snidel’s manual along with tips not found in the other two manuals.
Remove the wire that runs from the starter back to the solenoid in the left hand tool box.
Remove the solenoid.
There will be two wires going to each battery post. One will be heavy gauge and the other a much smaller gauge. Remove the heavy gauge wires as they were only needed to carry the high amperage drawn by the starter.
Drill and tap the bolt holes for the 5sp KS only inner chain case.
Have the starter gear machined off of the engine sprocket.
Attach the primary case inner half.
Replace the clutch and alternator.
Replace the primary case outer half."

cyrusb

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 10:53:29 AM »
Show off. ;)
Sorry Chuck, I can't help it! Since these pics it has received a right side shifter and a much needed 19t countershaft sprocket.

baird4444

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 11:45:27 AM »
Hey Bro-
    great job on the open look, Love it!! That hump was never an issue
    with me but I do love the open look. Have you considered moving the coil
    to one of the side boxes? that would be the final touch. May as well make
    it a Bosch Blue while you are at it!!
       yea, looks great -  Mike
"You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning!! "
        -Cody Baird
'My dear you are ugly,
 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
 - Winston Churchill

cyrusb

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2013, 12:19:58 PM »
I would like to mount the coil in the right box but that's full of tools, patch kit, inflator, etc. The left has the battery, so I'm kinda out of space. That's the original Lucas coil with sticker and almost rubbed through spot (remember that prob?)from the original air cleaner. It's odd to see how puzzled lookers get at the sight of it.   

baird4444

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2013, 01:33:55 PM »
I would like to mount the coil in the right box but that's full of tools, patch kit, inflator, etc. The left has the battery, so I'm kinda out of space. That's the original Lucas coil with sticker and almost rubbed through spot (remember that prob?)from the original air cleaner. It's odd to see how puzzled lookers get at the sight of it. [/b]
yea but...   
   are they puzzled that the Lucas coil is still there or
     why you haven't changed it??? ;)
"You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning!! "
        -Cody Baird
'My dear you are ugly,
 but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be ugly'
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cyrusb

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »
Yes to both  ;D, also there is some amazement that Lucas is still in business! But I may make this point moot soon anyway. Many years ago (07 I think) I converted to VW- Mercedes one piece points. Now I'm looking at using a weed eater ignition lump adapted to the distributor. Just have to do a few tests to see if it puts out well enough at half speed, particularly starting velocities. Edit: I know since I have never seen this done before, there may be a damn good reason. Any info would be appreciated. Now back to removing that e-start... ;)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 02:27:15 PM by cyrusb »

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2013, 06:41:48 PM »
The last of the parts removal started today. Out went the starter motor cable, the solenoid and the rest of the cables. Next comes the re-assembly.

Guaire

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Re: Removing Electric Start
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2013, 06:50:15 PM »
  Last night I got the last set up finished. Originally, I opened the outer gearbox to see what the problem was. Put it back together with a new gasket and added gear oil.
  I put two gallons of fresh gas into the empty tank. I checked for spark - ok. I watched the transparent inline filter fill with gas. Choke on, TDC past using the decompressor and gave it some kicks. Finally I got a gasp from the motor. I pulled the plug and let the cylinder clear. Put the plug in and tried starting without the choke, and I got a cough and a spit. Getting better. Gave it another kick and I got a weak idle. I couldn't gas it. As it warmed up I was getting some spits at about 1/8 throttle. After the motor warmed up, the spits stopped. I'll consider a slightly larger pilot jet on my new flat slide Mikuni.
  On the test ride there was a lot of useable power. The Bullet pulled hard out of corners and uphills there was a strong throttle response.
  It's been a lot of steps to get this machine set up. It finally came together. Thanks to everyone here that helped me along.
Cheers,
Bill