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Author Topic: avl performance kit????  (Read 1237 times)

armando_chavez

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avl performance kit????
« on: October 16, 2013, 01:27:45 AM »
http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/performance-kit-for-avl-models.html

what is in the kit i couldnt find it on here??

I already have a free flow with a mikuni tm 32
i would like to get a 535 kit but there is not one that i am aware of.

DanB

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 03:03:07 AM »
I've not seen a 535 option on NfieldGear.  Check out Hitchcocks in the UK:
http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-engine-performancekits

Scroll down a bit for the electra X kit.
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2006 AVL Electra

armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 09:45:51 PM »
ugh i just showed you..... theres a link to it.

DanB

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 10:48:27 PM »
Yes you did. Tell me, where does it say anything about the 535?  It doesn't. Why not just call them and satisfy your question.

Look around their site and you might find something like: http://nfieldgear.com/enfield-store/aftermarket-parts-accessories/performance/upgraded-premium-piston.html
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
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armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 11:04:45 PM »
man im not trying to argue.  I was just wondering if anybody had purchased it or knew anything about it.

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 12:10:29 AM »
I know that they make a flat top 535 piston, and you can have your barrel bored to fit it.
I don't know what they have in that "kit" that you referenced.
The extra displacement is worth it, because the AVL port is too big for the expected normal rev range of the bike. The added displacement will add port demand, and it will use the port better at the moderate revs. I don't know if the flat top will push the compression beyond what the chamber can handle using pump gas. Most AVL mods that I have heard about which use higher compression have had issues with detonation, unless they use Bullet Whisperer's adjustable ignition box for the AVL. I would consider BW's ignition box to be a critical part of any AVL hot-rodding.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 02:05:08 AM »
where could i get BW's ignition?

dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 05:17:45 AM »
I was talking to BW (Paul Henshaw) recently and he did mention that he ran out of those CDI boxes but according to him Hitchcock's performance TCI is pretty much based on his Ignition unit. So it looks like AVL'ers can use them too.

Tom - About the compression part - I thought the 535 piston alone would bump the compression by loads right? In that case there isn't any way to get the squish band corrected ? or there is a way to do it?

Regards,
Sanket

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 06:12:24 AM »
I was talking to BW (Paul Henshaw) recently and he did mention that he ran out of those CDI boxes but according to him Hitchcock's performance TCI is pretty much based on his Ignition unit. So it looks like AVL'ers can use them too.

Tom - About the compression part - I thought the 535 piston alone would bump the compression by loads right? In that case there isn't any way to get the squish band corrected ? or there is a way to do it?

Regards,
Sanket

Sanket,
The extra displacement will increase the compression some, all by itself. But the piston is a flat top, and I don't have the data on how much compression that will add.

Regarding the squish, it needs to be within less than .060" from the head, and no closer than .020" from the head at TDC . This can be achieved by setting the deck height of the barrel by machining the barrel down so that the piston comes all the way to the top, and then the thickness of the gasket will typically be enough to set the squish gap.
However, there needs to be enough room for the valves, so that they don't hit the piston at TDC, so that clearance would need to be checked. And bringing the piston up that high might cause compression to be too much. That would require some higher octane fuel, or some piston or chamber relieving to work with the available fuel octane. Squish can help to use higher compression, but it's not a miracle. It has limits too. I think you found out that 175 psi is about the limit for your AVL, didn't you?
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dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 06:38:13 AM »
Yes, I did read basanti's post somewhere where he mentioned that 175 psi was safe for him. I guess, I will for go for the S cams and then work on the 500, if not satisfied, then I can prolly get a 535 piston for the AVL. Or maybe use the 535 piston from UCE, if that's a flat top piston.

Also, is it possible to set the squish clearance right with the UCE500's piston? They aren't flat tho.

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 11:31:10 AM »
Yes, I did read basanti's post somewhere where he mentioned that 175 psi was safe for him. I guess, I will for go for the S cams and then work on the 500, if not satisfied, then I can prolly get a 535 piston for the AVL. Or maybe use the 535 piston from UCE, if that's a flat top piston.

Also, is it possible to set the squish clearance right with the UCE500's piston? They aren't flat tho.

The UCE uses a piston with the same compression height and pin, so they are interchangeable with the AVL.
The examples of UCE engines that I have seen have not made proper use of the squish band either. But, in any of these AVL or UCE engines, they can be made to have the correct squish with proper engine building methods. This will bring the piston closer to the head, and it may push the compression over the safe limit for the fuel, which might require some changes to the piston dish or to the chamber volume.
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armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 12:15:44 PM »
so as anyone been able to have a 535 AVL that is somewhat reliable???

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 12:53:44 PM »
so as anyone been able to have a 535 AVL that is somewhat reliable???

If you build it right, then it will be reliable. This could possibly entail more work than you might wish to do. But, it is definitely do-able.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 03:35:03 PM »
so as anyone been able to have a 535 AVL that is somewhat reliable???

Before you beef up the bike's power, work on the crank first. That's the weakest link. These AVL cranks will last from 20,000kms till 45000kms at max. Some even die out earlier, it's because the way it is made and some serious cost cutting that was done by RE. The bearings rest directly on the conrod and there isn't any hardened outer race to protect it.

To be honest that's what happened to mine, last time I checked it had lateral play, so I need to rip it apart and get the crank sorted. If you do it right then you won't have any issues with the crank, once done - you can go for all the crazy stuff. With Paul Henshaw's (BW) cams, you will be revving past 5500 barrier and you will max out revs at 7500 rpm + some compression bumping and you'll be all set :)

armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 08:05:16 PM »
im eager to learn.  although my 2007 avl electra only has 5000 miles on it.  im sure ill just wait until it goes to try a 535

1 Thump

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 08:06:54 PM »
im eager to learn.  although my 2007 avl electra only has 5000 miles on it.  im sure ill just wait until it goes to try a 535

BW's S-Cams and the ignition box are the most common and least labor intensive upgrades.
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mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 03:19:56 PM »
Read Dampking 's reply about AVL crank.  My  '09  is.  apart, awaiting s- cams, piston out, con rod has seemingly a lot of left to right motion,  8,000 miles,had barrel honed to remove scoring , looks like pencil mark, sounded like marbles, machinist said rings were worn.
    I am a newbie and wouldn't know serious wear unless someone pointed it out to me.
     Am hesitant to reassemble the bike unless I know I have corrected the  marble sound and the cause of the barrel scoring,
       Addressing the weak link crank issue at this time sounds like a great idea as I don't want to go through another beautiful autum without my RE.  Code...lazy.
         I have no idea how to do this operation, except I know I will have to split the cases
          Can you point me in the right direction?
                                    Matt. Glendale Az

dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 03:37:59 PM »
Matt - Have you ever thought of swapping UCE con-rods? UCE and AVL conrods are pretty much same and works on AVLs too. Also, I have heard that UCE con-rods have the hardened race? or maybe the con-rod eye region is hardened? not sure tho. I am sure Tom will know more about this. But if you can swap it then it might work out well, might add 10k more kilometers to your cranks longevity.

Also, if you have friends in India, then you can get a Crank Assmebly shipped for very cheap. Here a crank costs around 150 dollars or so :P

To be honest, I don't mind changing or fixing bottom end after 30,000 kms or 40. But a reliable bike is always a better bike :)

By the way - Did the marble type sound start because of the barrel and piston being not in proper shape? I think that's my case too! :( Oh btw - UCE Barrels and Pistons can be swapped too. Why I am saying this? because AVL parts are expensive now and very hard to source.

Regards,
Sanket

mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 07:40:24 PM »
Thinks Dampking...something to digest, and price is important
         Matt

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 10:02:39 PM »
I have been offline totally of late, due to computer problems and I have only just seen all of this. To reply to a couple of points raised, the Hitchcocks CDI [TCI] is the very same item I pioneered on the AVL testbed machine I tuned for them a few years back. It has a wider range from full retard to full advance, with an extra 4 degrees or so at either end of the scale. This gives lower odds for kickback on startup and a slight edge at medium to high engine speeds, especially if steps have already been taken with carb and exhaust modifications. The 'S' cams worked best when I was experimenting with cams and valve timings and they alone gave me an increase in speed from the high 80's to 103 mph, job done in the time it took to fit them. Hitchcocks took on the CDI units, eventually, so I dropped out from offering them - they had paid me for the development work after all - but they came up with their own cams, so I dont feel any guilt for offering the 'S' cams as an option. The latest batch is on its' way, just in case anyone was wondering, by the way!
 B.W.

armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 11:32:34 PM »
BW I have been trying to contact you I want a batch of a cams!!!

mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 02:25:43 AM »
Sanket, 295 for a crank!  I will definitely need a friend in India LOL!
       Best,  Matt
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 02:40:18 AM by mattjohnson207 »

dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 09:42:53 AM »
295? That's madness. I will check with few friends in US and see how much and what all customs will demand. For sure it's going to be a fraction of what is being charged there.

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 10:40:03 AM »
Don't forget that there will be a lot of shipping cost on that crank assembly. Probably at least $100 to ship it. But it still might be lower cost to buy it there.

Also, I would never buy an engine part off a street market in India. Most of the reject parts end up on the street, and there are a lot of back-alley reproduction parts which could be made of anything by anybody, and probably are.
Make sure it comes from an RE dealer. If it turns out to be junk, it will cost a fortune for return shipping cost(even if they accept returns), and then it's not a good deal at all. It all sounds wonderful until you get a piece of junk.
Buying from India is very often a roll of the dice, and you can get lucky, and you can also get burned. Caveat emptor.

If Sanket can work with a local friend to ensure that you get a good part that checks out before it's sent, then that is the safest way to buy parts from India.
 
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mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2013, 04:03:16 PM »
I'm interested...
        Matt in Glendale  Arizona

mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2013, 05:13:03 PM »
Measured my conrod side to side play;it's  1/8", so I understand I'm good for this rebuild,
    Sanket, I would like to have one on hand as I ride about 12,000 miles a year, and with the S cam upgrade, I'll be needing a new crank soon, I'll be doing my homework and be ready to install it  then!
          Matt

dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
Matt, let me talk to few guys and see. I know 2 of them who are very good and they can source any RE (OEM) part here in India.

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2013, 07:58:09 PM »
Measured my conrod side to side play;it's  1/8", so I understand I'm good for this rebuild,
    Sanket, I would like to have one on hand as I ride about 12,000 miles a year, and with the S cam upgrade, I'll be needing a new crank soon, I'll be doing my homework and be ready to install it  then!
          Matt

The important thing is that there is no perceptible up/down play in that big end roller bearing.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2013, 04:30:31 PM »
hey ace im no engine builder but i read somewhere that using a copper gasket to raise the deck height will help the "squish".

would something like the copper gaskets that hitchcocks supplies work?

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-engine-cylinderhead

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2013, 05:12:06 PM »
hey ace im no engine builder but i read somewhere that using a copper gasket to raise the deck height will help the "squish".

would something like the copper gaskets that hitchcocks supplies work?

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/accessory-engine-cylinderhead

If the copper head gasket is thinner than the other head gaskets you use, then it might help, depending what your engine has presently for piston-to-head clearance. If it doesn't get the piston within less than .060" from the head, then it is not helping. There is no "almost" with squish. You are either in the squish zone or you are not.
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armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »
how do i measure squish? or does anyone know what the measurment on the avl is stock?

ace.cafe

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2013, 10:31:19 PM »
how do i measure squish? or does anyone know what the measurment on the avl is stock?

The short answer is that the piston needs to come up to within .020"-.060" from the flat areas around the combustion chamber.
No more, and no less. It must be in that range .
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head Conversion. Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available anywhere.  AVL mods available. UCE kit coming.

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mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2013, 10:48:16 PM »
Hi Sanket,
     Be very interested to what it would take to get a reasonable price  on a crank.  Thanks for looking into it
     Best,   Matt

dampking

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2013, 06:43:51 AM »
Matt - Sorry was pretty busy with my work. I tried contacting few sellers but not much reply, I will talk to few of the riders (who are in New Delhi) and see if they can ship it or if anyone's going to US anytime soon then they can even carry it for you. You save shipping if that happens. I will anyways let you know once they tell me if they can do it or not.

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2013, 06:29:16 PM »
Sorry for the delay for anyone wanting some 'S' cams, they are being made, but not by me, sadly. The latest news is another 3 weeks to wait before I get them, so I am told  ::)
 B.W.

mattjohnson207

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2013, 07:09:15 PM »
Thanks Sanket! There is quite a large Indian community here in Phoenix,I always get a kick out of showing off my AVL;  strangely, I've had it for two years now and have not seen another except at a dealer.
        Thanks for your efforts!        Matt

armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2013, 07:38:02 PM »
hey BW put me on the list i will buy a set without a doubt

armando_chavez

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Re: avl performance kit????
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2013, 09:55:39 PM »
i just ordered the AM 26 Avon rear tire and the performance TCI box for my 2007 electra!

Im pretty excited to see how the bike rides with a performance tire rather than that old square top tire.  So now, my bike has a legendary phat cafe seat, clubman bars, tm-32, free flow header,and trailtech tachometer. 

I hope BW lets me buy a set of S cams! that would be awesome!