HPRE

Menu

Members Rides

Black Bess


in
Members Rides

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 28, 2014, 01:26:22 AM

Login with username, password and session length

 

Author Topic: Bike left me stranded again  (Read 793 times)

kammersangerin

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Karma: 0
Bike left me stranded again
« on: November 09, 2013, 04:08:45 PM »
Hey guys, my bike left me stranded again, and it's a 2012. I know  haven't posted in a while, and I hte to come in a kvetch, but this too, is not a happy marriage. I am just looking for the bike that doesn't melt or refuse to start every time the temperature gets a little cool.

Basically, it's happy in the heat, but once it gets into the 50's, it has a really hard time in the warm up cycle. After a few minutes of running it starts to snort and buck and choke, and you can't really ride it safely for another 2-3 minutes. The sysmptom gets WAY worse if you ride it only a short distance as a commuter.  Then one it hits aout freezing, it's very hard to keep running once you start it, and after it stalls once or twice, it refuses to start at all. You can smell the gas, likes it's just dumping the fuel, and it's flooded and the plug totally washed out. So far just letting it sit over night and a slight temperature increase got it to start. Swapping the plug is pointless because it does it again after a few rides. And you begin to run the battery down too.

I admit I don't have much tolerance for this sort of thing. Stuff doesn't have to be pretty or fancy, but it does need to run, and run reliably. That's why I have chosen a fuel injected model. I found the this kind of behaviour has been eradicated in most modern fuel injection systems. But apparently not in bikes, or this bike. I can't possibly see ow this thing could be maped to 18,000 feet given this kind of problem in cooler dryer air.

Any thoughts before I get hosed on a couple more grand dumping for a Japanese bike that might have a carb but actually starts? As a female I can't be stuck by the side of the road at midnight or have a warm weather bike.

gremlin

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
  • Karma: 0
  • "Do one thing each day that scares you"
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 04:24:25 PM »
Bummer, do you have a US spec bike with the O2 sensor ?
1996 Trophy 1200
2011 RE B5
1979 XS11 w/vetter terraplane
1981 XS11 streetfighter
1983 Venture Royale
1982 CB750K
1971 Triumph Trident
1969 CB450
1966 Sears (puch) 250


GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3008
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 04:56:52 PM »
Well if it was iron, I'd check for air leaks at the carb/enricher, battery condition and the list would continue until I got the bike fired up on one or two kicks and it stayed idling...I do get the occasional sputtering out when I give it the gas bit it's not been to the point where its been all that detrimental..In your case, since it's fuel injected, I would start with checking the battery voltage, air filter and probably the TPS voltage (I believe that's what it called for injector control voltage)...Since the bike is under warranty, why not just take it to the dealer or have u gone that route  with no success...My snidal and parts manual are for a iron and thus the procedures are a bit different in zeroing in on your specific problem..Someone will chime in and give you a better analysis of your issue... I wouldn't want to be stuck out on the road at midnight either, I might turn into a pumpkin or something worst...
Oh Magoo you done it again

Vince

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2013, 05:35:34 PM »
     There are a million possibilities. Hopefully you have a good dealer near you and can have a pro sort it out. Things that you can check are external conditions.
     You ride in cold weather, so I assume you're riding more cautiously and for shorter distances. Riding at low RPM may not allow the battery to fully charge. It takes about 1/2 hour of NORMAL riding to replenish a good battery from one normal starting attempt. A battery that seems adequate can be at a low enough charge to cause electrical issues, particularly with electronic ignition and fuel injection systems. The cure may be simply to plug in a Battery Tender every night.
     Also, in cold weather there are condensation issues. Even if the air is dry, heat cycles will cause condensation in any air space in the fuel tank. These heat cycles can be day to night, street to garage, or running to non-running. Water in the gas can cause your symptoms. A drying agent may help. Filling up much more ofter will help. Less air in the tank means less condensation potential. This same condensation occurs in electrical connections. A dab of di-electric grease can alleviate this.
     You may have a side stand switch issue. If the switch is not properly mounted the stand may not properly actuate it. Engine vibration or bumps in the road can flick the switch on and off. Clutch switches and kill switches can also have this problem.
     These are common issues I have found on every motorcycle from every brand. Problem frequency is greatest at the end and beginning of riding season when riding conditions are not quite bad enough to keep you from riding.
   A bike's insides are on the outside. This makes them more vulnerable than cars are to weather conditions.
    It might be a starting  technique issue. Every start goes to default mode. For the first minute or so it runs rich. If you "help" by blipping the throttle you are actually disrupting the fuel injection computations. This might be your plug fouling issue. Leave the throttle alone for that first minute, then take off with gentle throttle application until it fully warms up.
     Of course you may have a component issue. You would be amazed how many Hondas come in with failing electrical parts. But this will require a properly equipped pro to diagnose.
     It really isn't an issue with this bike, or R.E.'s in general. I have had this discussion for forty years with riders of every motorcycle made. I have riders on R.E.'s right now riding in 40 degree weather.
     Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
     

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6003
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2013, 07:27:17 PM »
Do you have an NGK plug or the stock Bosch?

Royalista

  • phaneropter
  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2013, 07:36:00 PM »
+1
on every point.

50F is 10C, that's not even cold for a Bullet.
Mine could have an issue too at these temperatures, combined with humidity in the air. It would if I'd kept the bi-starter open or blip the throttle or ride off right away or do any combination of these.

I assume you don't have a kicker. That would spare the battery because on a commute of less than 20 km (12-15 miles) it won't recharge fully from a start up.
Condense prevention, a topped off gas tank, a full charged battery (if not already replaced with a gel type, aka maintenance free) and not flooding the engine on start up should keep your humble mule willing and obedient.  ;)

moriunt omnes pauci vivunt

ROVERMAN

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2013, 10:04:51 PM »
+1 to everything you said Vince, except the million possibilities statement. This is an Enfield not a direct injected 5 litre Range Rover. If it goes to the dealer they will have to duplicate the concern using his conditions, should be a piece of cake to sort after that. kammersangerin, if you are trying to fix it yourself then follow Vince's' advice.
Robert.

DanKearney

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2013, 10:32:06 PM »
Hey guys, my bike left me stranded again, and it's a 2012.


It's a bummer when it isn't working right.  Given the near total lack of other FI Bullets being reported (as far as I can see on this site) with issues like yours, its seems something is just out of whack.  Your bike is still under warranty.  If I were you, I'd dump this on your local dealer and have him sort it out for you. 


Good luck.


Dan K.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dan Kearney - Black Hawk, Colorado, USA
Royal Enfield Bullet Classic, Yamaha XT225, Ural Gear Up, BMW R100R
http://dansmotorcycleblog.blogspot.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

kammersangerin

  • Bulleteer
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2013, 05:17:33 AM »
Thanks all for the responses. I'll give you all an update:

The bike is running again, because it has a new spark in it. Its was an NKG, and it is now another NKG. The plug, as expected, was entirely fouled; black and wet. Fortunately,  was not terribly far from the one motorcycle dealer in town, and they were gracious enough to lend me a trailer I was able to load up quickly and tow it to them.

Their primary comment was that in their experience, they see this type of plug in FI with a bad O2 sensor. It acts like it running on default mode. They looked at service bulletins and found that the 500cc engine has a lot of service problems in this regard, as well as bad ECU's.

Honestly the symptom of snorting and bucking after running a few minutes before straightening out and the rich runnig are exactly what i experienced on one of my 240 Volvos many years ago. Doing a resstance check through the warm up cycle and comparing ith the manuals indicated  a bad sensor in spite of no engine light. Replacing it made it go away.They could not find what the resistance needed to be to check the sensor, so they suggested taking it an hour away to have the dealer run a check.

I suspect this is why the first owner traded it in. The symptom doesn't always duplicate and they don't feel like m uking with it. That means I have no warranty. The question is if my more regional dealer can actually check it and we replace the part and move on. Otherwise the bike is fun to ride and fits my needs very well. But I do want and expect to ride. The bike has 4100 miles on it, and I put on 1600 in the last few months.

Oh, and guys??? I am a gal.   

wildbill

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 914
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2013, 06:00:09 AM »
id like to hear from you how it runs with an iridium ngk spark plug. i found these were better than any of the standard factory fouling crap.
my first bike - c5 black behaved like this - very frustrating!
before you pull the plug - no pun intended- try a few of the alternatives. never know you might just fix your problem
2011 C5 black/chrome
2012 C5 maroon/chrome 
2013 B5 black
2014 Continental gt
2014 C5 tan/cheery - upgrades and work in progress

2004 mazda-speed miata
2001 bmw z3 2.2

Ducati Scotty

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 6003
  • Karma: 0
  • 2010 Teal C5
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 06:03:39 AM »
I'll check the manual and see if I can find spec on the O2 sensor.  Sensors are usually dead or alive, not intermittent.  If your problem is intermittent I'd suspect the wiring, maybe some chafed insulation. 

Scott

JVS

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 879
  • Karma: 0
  • I love chicken
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 07:42:14 AM »
I might be mistaken, but I think..fellow forum member GHG had some specs on the oxygen sensor voltage stuff. I read it somewhere, can't remember where.

Regarding the sensor, as you probably know, it requires about 90 seconds to come into play. It's a good idea to hold the manual bi-starter for the first minute or so to keep the revs up, or increase the idle RPM a bit so that the bike warms up properly.

I was going through this link http://ngkntk.co.uk/index.php/technical-centre/lambda-sensors/how-to-test-lambda-sensors/ and gathered the following -

Quote
Soot
Thick soot deposits lead to blockage of the sensor protection tube and have a negative effect on reaction time. Causes can be a mixture that is too fuel-rich or the result of damage to the sensor heater. The sensor must be replaced in all cases.

Oil
Thick white or grey deposits are evidence of the use of fuel additives or that the engine is burning oil. Certain components in the fuel additives and the oil contaminate the sensor element. The cause must be removed and the sensor be replaced by a new sensor.

So repeated attempts at starting may not only be fouling the 'new' spark plugs, but also the sensor? Instead of 90 seconds, the sensor might be taking more time, as it is 'temperature sensitive' and might not be able to detect oxygen optimally...because of blockage etc, we don't know yet.

I think the dealer should loosen the sensor and check for the health of the internal side of it...soot/damage/blockage etc. And then tighten it to the torque spec provided in the service manual.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:44:17 AM by JVS »
Sons continuing wars, our fathers were enemies


singhg5

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 03:38:48 PM »
Thanks all for the responses. I'll give you all an update:

The bike is running again, because it has a new spark in it. Its was an NKG, and it is now another NKG. The plug, as expected, was entirely fouled; black and wet. Fortunately,  was not terribly far from the one motorcycle dealer in town, and they were gracious enough to lend me a trailer I was able to load up quickly and tow it to them.

Their primary comment was that in their experience, they see this type of plug in FI with a bad O2 sensor. It acts like it running on default mode. They looked at service bulletins and found that the 500cc engine has a lot of service problems in this regard, as well as bad ECU's.

Honestly the symptom of snorting and bucking after running a few minutes before straightening out and the rich runnig are exactly what i experienced on one of my 240 Volvos many years ago. Doing a resstance check through the warm up cycle and comparing ith the manuals indicated  a bad sensor in spite of no engine light. Replacing it made it go away.They could not find what the resistance needed to be to check the sensor, so they suggested taking it an hour away to have the dealer run a check.

I suspect this is why the first owner traded it in. The symptom doesn't always duplicate and they don't feel like m uking with it. That means I have no warranty. The question is if my more regional dealer can actually check it and we replace the part and move on. Otherwise the bike is fun to ride and fits my needs very well. But I do want and expect to ride. The bike has 4100 miles on it, and I put on 1600 in the last few months.

Oh, and guys??? I am a gal.

The oxygen sensor of RE can be tested with a multimeter relatively easily, as shown in the video link below.

The voltage of sensor changes as it warms up. Before warm up it was 4.7 volts and after warm up it fluctuated between 0.5 to 1V on my G5 depending on the throttle position. This is the most basic test that can rule out whether oxygen sensor is working or not. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHzMg-J2aEA
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 03:52:38 PM by singhg5 »
1970's Jawa /  Yezdi
2006 Honda Nighthawk
2009 Royal Enfield Black G5

GreenMachine

  • Grand Gearhead
  • *****
  • Posts: 3008
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 04:29:30 PM »
Glad to see the replacement plug brought it back to life  So u been fighting with this issue for the past 1600 miles that you put on the bike and now its gotten worst.....The occasional short lived bucking and snorting that I have noticed is more temperature related to my bike which lacks any sensors (it's just a gravity fed carb and not related to this discussion)..Singhg5 has graciously provided  02 sensor testing.....Since u have it at the dealer now, they should be able to at least test the sensor vice just replacing it..

They looked at service bulletins and found that the 500cc engine has a lot of service problems in this regard, as well as bad ECU's.

I was just reading in another post, how it appeared that most of these problems had disappeared, maybe you have the oddball but a ECU replacement  sounds expensive  and I would be looking at other things before jumping to that conclusion...I'm not aware of anyone losing a ECU , maybe someone will chime in if they have encountered it.  This doesn't sound like a expensive problem to me unless you're blowing smoke, using excessive oil, etc...

You a Gal, of course you are, u been with us a year or two if not mistaken..I thought u were doing most of your riding in the Winchester area (We have another Gal floating around) ..Their is a dealer of some sort up there but no one has ever elaborated on whether they are a Royal Enfield dealership/service center...
Oh Magoo you done it again

Guzzohm

  • Scooter
  • **
  • Posts: 90
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bike left me stranded again
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »
Thanks all for the responses. I'll give you all an update:
...
Honestly the symptom of snorting and bucking after running a few minutes before straightening out and the rich running are exactly what i experienced on one of my 240 Volvos many years ago. Doing a resstance check through the warm up cycle and comparing ith the manuals indicated  a bad sensor in spite of no engine light. Replacing it made it go away.They could not find what the resistance needed to be to check the sensor, so they suggested taking it an hour away to have the dealer run a check.
...
That was exactly what was happening on my C5 before I sold it, and it was the plug that was fouled.  Warmups had to be short so it wouldn't occur.  I hope the O2 sensor is the culprit.
2013 Honda CBR250R ABS  "Little Raven"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750  "Karla"