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Author Topic: s cams  (Read 6675 times)

armando_chavez

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s cams
« on: November 12, 2013, 05:54:48 PM »
does anyone know anything about the latest batch of s cams??

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »
Hi Armando and everyone else who might want to know about the 'S' cams.
Yes, a batch of 6 sets are being made. As usual, the makers are taking a long time, too long, but they do a good job. One set is spoken for here in the U.K., for a machine I am tuning for its' owner, the other 5 sets will go to the first 5 'orders', with any drop outs passed on to the next in line. More cams can be made at shorter notice [so the makers tell me], should more sets be required after the above 5 are spoken for. Sorry for any inconvenience, but this part of it is beyond my control. I have considered getting them made elsewhere, but these are proven to work well and the design is 'on file', so repeat batches come out the same as the first and for this reason I am sticking with this manufacturer, also the quality is very good. I have also heard it suggested that this cam type might be copied and made in India soon. I will not take any responsibility for or be associated with these cams in any way, should they become available.
 B.W.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 09:53:18 PM »
BW,  can you please see that I am on the list.  I will not drop out and i will pay up as soon as they are ready to be shipped to good ole Jersey across the pond.

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 09:23:06 AM »
Hi Paul,
Can you also confirm my order for a set. Awaiting and in the meanwhile I also got a TM 34 in anticipation of the cams.

Additionally, I don't think anyone in India maybe able to 'build' these cam knowing the kind of machinery and the intellect of the machine shops here. This kind of work is too esoteric and the material used will always be suspect. I know from sad experience when I had used locally made cams for my 350CI - all 'claimed' Indian 'S'/performance cams are just plain useless and a waste of hard earned money >:(. I went back to the original cams in the engine now. Like a wise man said, " If you give peanuts and you'll get Monkeys" !!

Regards,
Tej
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 09:45:12 AM by TejK »

mattjohnson207

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Re: s cams
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2013, 02:18:34 AM »
Hi BW , please put me on the list,  just got my gasket kit from  Nfield gear, ready to reassemble
     Matt in Glendale, Arizona

St1g9203

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Re: s cams
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2013, 01:52:10 PM »
Please add me to the list. for my AVL 350

City of Biryani and pearl, India
Ride hard.. thump harder

bajasteve

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Re: s cams
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2013, 09:11:00 PM »
Hi, looks like they have all been spoken for. Can I ask what they go for and how they differ from standard cams?
Thanks,
Steve.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2013, 11:57:09 PM »
im no expert but i believe theyll let you rev past 6000 rpm

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 08:31:25 AM »
+1. I believe they let the engine breath much better and without valve bounce leading to higher revs equating to higher power + top end.
Can't wait to try them.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 07:37:32 PM »
yeah i really hope i get a set. i feel like ive been bugging the BW about too much but i want a set so bad!

motoguzzibill

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Re: s cams
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2013, 10:00:35 PM »
BW,
  Lot of interest in the cams, please put me on your list. Could you describe how the "S" cams might be different than the performance cams Hitchcocks advertises? If I can get a set of "yours" I'm wondering about other options.
Thanks Much,
Bill N.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2013, 10:33:10 PM »
BW,
  Lot of interest in the cams, please put me on your list. Could you describe how the "S" cams might be different than the performance cams Hitchcocks advertises? If I can get a set of "yours" I'm wondering about other options.
Thanks Much,
Bill N.
Hi Bill - well I am taken aback by the interest shown this time round and I will try to see that everyone who wants a set gets one, but it may mean waiting for another batch and they are slow in coming, sadly. The 'S' cams were a fairly soft Redditch pattern from the late fifties. Basically, without repeating the whole story, I did the R&D work on an Electra X tuning package for Hitchcocks and many cam types were tested, some boosted power, but none gave an increase in RPM, due to a violent inlet valve bounce around 5,800 RPM. I had tried all the cams and timing combinations I thought might work, with no real luck, and then I spotted some old cams lying around - they didn't look very exciting, but just so I could say I had tried everything, I gave them a go. An hour earlier, I hit 87 MPH flat out in 5th [top] gear on this machine, with these old cams in it reached 95 MPH in 4th! Top gear and almost flat on the tank [in very heavy rain, with waterproof jacket, leggings etc], I hit 103 MPH, job done and the machine went back to Hitchcocks, with all my notes. I recommended the 'S' cams for the kit, but they already had something to offer, apparently, so these cams never made it into the kit. I took it upon myself to get some made and two batches sold out completely - this next will be the third - they also work well in the 'Classic' or 'Iron' engines and a couple of my 'Asbo' engines have them installed, although no two of these engines are identical.
 I will try to make sure anyone who wants a set, gets them, but please bear with me, the makers take a long time and batches of 6 sets are all I really want to stick my neck on the line for at present.
 Thanks to all for your interest and understanding.
 B.W.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2013, 10:53:53 PM »
BW you are the man! i hope i can get a set on this batch coming around.  So excited to do the ton!

mattjohnson207

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Re: s cams
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 08:47:04 PM »
I can wait...
            Matt Johnson
              Glendale , Arizona

motoguzzibill

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Re: s cams
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 02:40:31 AM »
BW,
  I appreciate your detailed response. It's near winter-time here in Montana, so the Enfield is now laying near dormant for the next few months. But this is prime-time to be working on improvements for next year. Not sure how long your cam list is, but please be sure my name appears. If you end up with a few no-takers on the due batch just let me know. As I pushed my AVL to it's 80mph limit I wondered how to make it breath harder. Sounds like you have my answer.
Thanks Much,
Bill N

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Re: s cams
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2013, 07:12:08 PM »
Just an update, over the last couple of months I have been phoning the cam people from time to time, to try and get a result of sorts. Well, today, out of the blue, they phoned me to recap on a few details so that grinding my batch of cams could commence. I asked how much notice they would need to increase the numbers in the batch and was told 'we would need to know by this afternoon'. On the strength of the interest shown to date, I increased the order from 6 sets to 8 sets and it looks like I should have them here pretty soon  8)
 B.W.

rep_movsd

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Re: s cams
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2013, 08:26:03 PM »
Hey,

Are these cam designs owned or created by you, or are they free for all? Would the profiles be available? Perhaps they can be made here in India cheaply given some effort and networking.

DanB

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Re: s cams
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2013, 11:23:44 PM »
Excellent news BW!  Thanks very much. Feels like Xmas :)
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

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Re: s cams
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2013, 12:54:45 AM »
Hey,

Are these cam designs owned or created by you, or are they free for all? Would the profiles be available? Perhaps they can be made here in India cheaply given some effort and networking.
Fancy making a few bucks on the back of someone else? Go for it my friend, buy a set of these cams from me and make as many copies as you can. Oh - and be prepared to face the consequences when you are asked questions about timing, valve to piston clearences etc. Every penny [or cent] I ever earned was from working for it. My profit margin on these cams is tiny, maybe getting me a couple of beers on each set and no more than that. If you can do better, go for it.
 B.W.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2013, 02:53:54 AM »
what a scuzball.

BW im on the list right?  I have the money just let me know when to pay!
 

dampking

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Re: s cams
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2013, 04:46:00 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:33:00 AM by dampking »

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2013, 05:05:37 AM »
Hey,

Are these cam designs owned or created by you, or are they free for all? Would the profiles be available? Perhaps they can be made here in India cheaply given some effort and networking.


BW has spent years with Enfields and learnt all he has one step at a time - He does the cams for helping out fellow bullet lovers. I suggest you read up on cams and learn.

 I have tried some cams which were supposed to be 'performance' items. Well, they perform very well - as paper-weights !!!! >:(   . And they made my CI bike a Huge ass hunk of not-working metal. And wise advise from Ace and BW prevented me from experimenting with home-grown ideas & solutions to cams - and possibly saved my motor !


dampking

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Re: s cams
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2013, 08:39:13 AM »

BW has spent years with Enfields and learnt all he has one step at a time - He does the cams for helping out fellow bullet lovers. I suggest you read up on cams and learn.

 I have tried some cams which were supposed to be 'performance' items. Well, they perform very well - as paper-weights !!!! >:(   . And they made my CI bike a Huge ass hunk of not-working metal. And wise advise from Ace and BW prevented me from experimenting with home-grown ideas & solutions to cams - and possibly saved my motor !

Right said! and to be honest Paul is prolly the only one in this planet who's making these cams! :D

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2013, 09:13:36 AM »
what a scuzball.

BW im on the list right?  I have the money just let me know when to pay!

+1 , and +1 to waiting :)

rep_movsd

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Re: s cams
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2013, 03:30:03 PM »
Take it easy folks! I was under the impression that S cams are some sort of well known design that came from some very old Enfields well out of production and happen to work well on the existing ones.
Far be it from me to copy or clone anyones design for profit.

As far as the scuzball remarks, FYI I am a very good friend of Chummas and he trusts me enough to show me and loan me his prototype rockers, he came and helped me tune my Fireball and I helped him get his cousins Yezdi on the road, which he was riding the entire time he was here.
So please withhold character judgements before you know a persons character.
I'm the only guy here in India to whom a complete Fireball kit was sold.
Chumma doesn't spend days and nights getting "scuzballs" bikes working in goo d order.

I am an Indian, when I see something expensive, I think of how to build that with my limited resources - I asked a question if it was a proprietary design.

I know who Paul Henshaw is and I would be the last one to ride off on someone elses efforts for profit. I'm not even in the business of building bikes for money yet, its a hobby into which I have thrown money of my own.
 
So Paul, I apologize if I came off in a wrong way - I have no intention of being a con man, nor have I ever been.

Let's move on from here. 

Chuck D

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Re: s cams
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2013, 09:54:14 PM »
"Chumma doesn't spend days and nights getting "scuzzballs" bikes in good order".
Speak for yourself.
Signed,
A scuzzball. ;D
2006 Bullet Sixty-5 w/ Ace "Fireball 535" Kit (#10)
Ace "GP" head in the works.

'76 Honda CB550Four K(sold)


"What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understandin'?"

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2013, 04:50:58 AM »
haha thats funyy. i really need some s cams....

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2013, 08:19:34 AM »

 
So Paul, I apologize if I came off in a wrong way - I have no intention of being a con man, nor have I ever been.

Let's move on from here.
That's ok, perhaps I misunderstood you. A while ago I had a tip off that someone was preparing to copy these cams in India and sell them very cheaply - probably much cheaper than I can. I can't stop that happening, but at the same time, I don't see why I should take it lying down, either. In view of this, your previous post appeared to be from someone expecting to do just that. Perhaps the cams will get copied and work well, whilst selling for less money and this would be a good thing, it wouldn't affect me too much, but sorry if I misunderstood you.
 B.W.

Adrian

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Re: s cams
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2013, 03:03:41 PM »
If we just remember to support the good guys, folks (whoever and wherever they are), it helps us all in the long run!

A.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 11:13:12 PM »
I had almost given up, but then Santa came early, with eight sets of 'S' cams. Two sets are spoken for in the U.K.
 I will look back through my messages since announcing this batch and try to be as fair as possible with the orders. I can get more sets made if needs be  ;)
 B.W.

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 11:52:25 PM »
let me know when to pay up!???

DanB

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Re: s cams
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2013, 01:08:47 AM »
Hi BW, pm sent.
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2013, 10:22:47 AM »
Wow !! Great News BW !

All I can do now is Pray and keep my Fingers crossed for Santa to grant my wish!!

High On Octane

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Re: s cams
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2013, 12:50:03 PM »
I don't even own an AVL, but this is cool stuff!  I love how people on this forum all pull together to make special things like this happen.  :)

Scottie
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2013, 10:05:57 AM »
Just an update, I am working my way through the names of interested parties in the order the P.M.'s came in, any 'drop outs' will be passed over to the next name, but there may be a shortfall. All I can say is if neccessary I will order more cams, but let's see how things go over the next few days  ;)
 Thanks to all.
 B.W.

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2013, 12:13:53 PM »
I think it may be best to go over some 'old ground' where installation of these cams is concearned, so here is an extract from my reply to some qustions I have been asked about them:
 The cams will come with timing marks on them, just like the factory ones - two marks on the exhaust cam, one on the inlet. In most cases, the cams are installed 'on their marks', but you will need to turn the engine over very carefully and slowly with the spark plug removed, to make sure the valves clear the piston ok, which they usually do, with no trouble. There was one case where an inlet valve touched the piston and this was fixed by retarding the inlet cam by 1 tooth, making the valve open a little later and avoiding the piston. This turned out to be due to some AVL valve seats being cut shallower than others, so the proximity of the closed valves to the piston crowns can vary a little. The decompressor mechanism also has to be removed, to allow the exhaust cam follower to drop a little further onto the new cam's base circle, this is quite easily done.
 I also like to 'over adjust' the pushrods by about 4 flats of the hexagon adjuster 'nuts' for inlet and 6 flats for exhaust [both valves held slightly open] and turn the engine carefully and see that the valves and piston still clear each other, for peace of mind. They usually do, but steps can be taken as above, if required.
 I will be happy to help and advise, if there are any doubts regarding fitting and setting up, but it is quite a straight forward job.
 Any feedback to date relating to these cams in AVL machines has all been good and there are already quite a few out there!
 B.W.
 P.S. - post edited regarding pushrod 'over adjustment' for checking valve to piston clearences.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 04:54:05 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

DanB

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Re: s cams
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2013, 04:17:26 PM »
Thanks Paul. This is very helpful.
Suppose I were an idiot, and suppose I were a member of Congress; but I repeat myself. ... Mark Twain
2006 AVL Electra

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2014, 07:03:56 AM »
Got the S cams from Paul !!

Spent about 2 hours y'day to install them and adjust them yesterday. Checked for clearances and all was well. Started the bike and immediately the engine seemed to skip a few beats on idle.

I was running the following setup on my TM34 which I was happy with - 1. Pilot 25 with 2 3/4 out 2. Stock needle in 3 clip from top (middle groove), 3. stock Needle jet 4. 190 main jet 5. dry K&N R1100 6. stock header without the catcon& PAV 7. Straight thru end can shot bottle.

A slight adjustment to the pilot ( richening) got it back to the solid idle. Now the Pilot sits at 1 3/4 out from seated position.

Went for a short slow speed run to bed in the cams - the bike seemed pretty much the same at normal slow speed riding.......

Until. ... I got a little open road and opened the throttle - the difference is amazing !! I am pulling consistently higher speed through the gears and the bike revsss!!! :D and I had a wide grin across my face as I was riding around for the initial run of about 5 kms !!!

Though I have not been able to test the speed on a proper open road, the bike still left me amazed when it started touching a 90kmph (RADON speedo) in the 3rd before I had to slow down ! I think I maybe still a little lean in the 'NEW' rpm range ( which the cams have oped up).

Will go for a long ride to jet correctly and I am sure now I have a Hot-rodded AVL !!

Thank  You Paul !! Appreciate the time and effort you have put into sharing the cams with Enfield lover across the globe !! Though it a large sum of money in view of the exchange rates, this is the best 170 buck (GBP) that i have spent EVER !!

I can now claim to  have a slightly hot-rodded Enfield !! I am just loving it !!




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Re: s cams
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2014, 01:32:24 PM »
Hi TejK,
 That's great news! I am very happy that you like the cams and what they do for the AVL, thanks for sharing that here, too!
 I remember when I first tried a set of 'S' cams in the AVL I tuned a few years ago and how I had to open the bike right up several times just to prove to myself that I wasn't dreaming - there is such a difference right away.
 Sadly, I cannot do anything about how long it takes to get them made and I have no control over the banks or how they operate, but one payment came in quickly via the 'Western Union' method recently.
 The 'S' cams are not cheap for 'a pair of cams', but there is a large performance gain to be had from them alone.
 The performance CDI [TCI] also works well alone, but put these two together for even more fun, although I stood down from offering these when Hitchcocks finally decided to take them on and I think they are available from CMW as well, so no problem in getting one these days.
 Enjoy that AVL, TejK and please keep us posted on any progress  8) 8)
 B.W.

boggy

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Re: s cams
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2014, 04:51:08 PM »
Wow.  Testimonial from TejK is pretty awesome to read. When I'm sorted out I'm definitely gonna want some of these.  90 kmph in 3rd?!  Heck yeah.
2007 AVL
2006 DRZ400SM

TejK

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Re: s cams
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2014, 11:53:46 AM »
Hi Paul,
Sorry couldn't log in here but tried now I can thanks to my techno gizmo - (smart?)phone. The bike just great now and the funniest thing which stops me from going faster than 130kmph is the fact that the petecock on my bike flows fuel t a rate that's slower than the rate at which the bike is burning !!! Tried a bigger jet but that makes the mid range too rich , so am back to 200 main and in search for the bigger petecock and a bigger fuel filter.

I figured it out by repeating the exercise 3 times and happend to look at the carb and saw the fuel running in and this happened both the times. The first time I thought I had blown off something  :P

Hi Boggy,
Yes the bike is transformed and like Paul said I too had to open her up two three times before I realised that it's not Speedo error or me day dreaming.

Bullet Whisperer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2014, 01:36:42 PM »
Hi TejK,
 That certainly sounds like the engine is looking for more fuel at or around full throttle - is the tank vent clear? Just a thought.
 The valves will get a much easier life now, as they won't be bouncing after closing anymore - this is what prevents the revs climbing past about 5800 rpm with the standard set up. I lost all compression once on the dyno, the engine  suddenly lost nearly all power during a test run and on investigation I found the inlet valve had started to drop  :o It turned out that the small ridges on the valve collets had been hammered away to nothing and the collets were only hanging on to the very end of the valve stem by the time the engine stopped - that was a close shave, if ever there was  ;)
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2014, 11:58:03 AM »
Apart from one set on 'hold' for now, all the 'S' cams are now gone, one other set has remained here for me to personally fit them to an Electra X, which has just been dropped off here today. This could be interesting, as I have already shortened the cylinder barrel and modified the piston crown of this machine, as per the original testbed machine of a few years ago. It also already has the performance CDI [TCI] box fitted, this was done at the same time as the top end work, which increases the C.R. to 9.2:1 and this machine is currently capable of around 85 mph. It already has a 'Highway kit' 32 mm Dellorto carb, rather than a 36 mm MK II Amal type that I used, and a 'Goldie' type silencer, so it will probably be a couple of BHP down on the original, but still pretty lively  ;D

Adrian

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Re: s cams
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2014, 01:41:56 PM »
Hi Paul,

The PHF32 is still a good carb, it can benefit from a richer K35 needle (I just raised the supplied K20 up a notch when I was using mine) and a 130/135 main jet with the open down-pipe, I'm guessing your customer has already tried this. The only other issue with this carb is that the anodizing on the stock ally slide can wear quite quickly, but chrome-plated brass slides are available from Dell'Orto UK (and so are PHF36 carbs...).

Regards,

A.





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Re: s cams
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2014, 01:45:06 PM »
Thanks for that info, Adrian.
 The job is now done, I am just on my lunch break, after going for a very fast and enjoyable ride on an Electra X  ;D ;D. Not my place to go blowing this one up, but I took it to around 90 mph with no fuss and a bit in reserve, it saw 80 mph in 4th gear with more to come, as well.
 In the case of this machine, with modified piston crown and shortened barrel, I had to retard the inlet cam by 1 tooth. I also noticed the timing cover wasn't going all the way home when I tried to refit it. This turned out to be because of the position the adjustable spindles were in [I didn't need to disturb them] and the tips of the gear teeth standing a little higher on my 'S' cams [deeper engagement] and I had to remove a small amount of metal from the timing cover in the shiny, relieved area seen in pic 2.
 Another point worth sharing, this machine is showing 17,000 miles and the oil pump drive spindle teeth and worm looked like they might have only made it to about 20,000 miles, so I fitted new ones as a precaution  ;).
 B.W.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 01:49:58 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2014, 02:37:40 PM »
I don't know what timing numbers the S Cams have, but the regular Iron Barrel cams respond quite well to a 1 - tooth retarding of the inlet cam in the Iron Barrel engine applications. If the inlet closing timing of the S Cams is similar to the standard Iron Barrel cams, then I would expect good response to that also.
Extending the inlet closing timing to a later closing angle is a method known to increase the high rpm power, and also will often extend the rpm range higher too. However, there is a limit to this, and a whole tooth is a lot of degrees retarding, so it would need to be verified. Smaller adjustments may be possible with an adjustable timing pinion or offset Woodruff key.
Retarding will have the effect of reduced working compression if you retard it far enough, so that should be taken into consideration when doing that. Since retarding actually presents more clearance from piston to valve at TDC, it may be possible to restore some of that compression by removing a gasket (or even shaving the bottom of the barrel a little) to get the piston a little higher in the bore for more compression.
Anybody thinking about that had better know what he is doing before going down that road. It is a rather advanced sort of modification, which requires understanding what is happening and why.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 07:01:44 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2014, 04:29:17 PM »
I took it to around 90 mph with no fuss and a bit in reserve, it saw 80 mph in 4th gear with more to come, as well.
 

ahhh... that is awesome.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2014, 10:03:14 PM »
The oil pump spindle is worth checking, the AVL might survive without oil for a few seconds longer than the original design, but we really don't want to go there.

I really recommend checking the end float of the oil pump gears (both ends, guys!), if they're not spinning freely you'll be able to tell your friends how much a new oil pump spindle (and possibly a full rebuild) costs if you insist on just throwing it all back together.  Some O rings sold for sealing the pump end plates are thinner than stock, which I suspect won't help.

Yep, forgot to check this on the project, took the timing cover off to fit the new magneto (C.I. model crankcases) and noticed a knackered pump spindle after just starting the engine up a few times. The spindle would hardly turn by hand. Hmm... End covers off, it all spins freely... I ended up refacing the pump gears on a sheet of fine wet and dry/WD40 over a handy bit of plate glass (I love hi-tech solutions), all sorted now.  :)

A.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2014, 10:26:41 PM »
I retarded the intake 'S' cam one tooth on the Harris Scrambler and got 160 PSI compression on a hot engine, stock AVL head, stock piston, with a 30mm PWK flat-slide carburetor, throttle wide open.  I don't think I lost much, if any compression by doing this.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2014, 11:21:57 PM »
I retarded the intake 'S' cam one tooth on the Harris Scrambler and got 160 PSI compression on a hot engine, stock AVL head, stock piston, with a 30mm PWK flat-slide carburetor, throttle wide open.  I don't think I lost much, if any compression by doing this.

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill

Did you happen to have a reading of the compression prior to the change?
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Re: s cams
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2014, 02:01:30 AM »
Did you happen to have a reading of the compression prior to the change?

ace.cafe,

I could not check the compression with the 'S' cams timed to the marks because I had intake valve to piston interference so I don't know what the compression would be.  With the stock AVL cams timed to the marks I got about 155 psi.  I don't think with the intake 'S' cam timed to the mark would make much more compression than what I'm getting with it retarded one gear tooth.  I'm very happy with the 160 psi I'm getting.  I can only speculate on what the compression would be with the 'S' cams timed to the marks.

Do you know what the C.R. is with 160 psi compression in this engine with a stock bore and stroke? 

Cheers,
Bill
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 05:35:37 PM by Bill Harris »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2014, 12:20:14 PM »
I would need a little more data to be able to say what CR the piston is.

I used my calculator to try to figure out as much as I could.
Assuming that the piston is 8.5:1 like it is often stated to be, then I used that figure in the calculator.
Since I don't know the timing points of the cams, I had to try a bunch of numbers to see what comes up with 155 psi compression at your elevation above sea level.
So, with an assumption of 8.5:1 piston at your elevation, and a cam that closes the intake at the .050" lift point at 37 degrees ABDC, that would give you 155 psi. This would typically be about what we get with the standard Iron Barrel cams which have a seat timing for intake closing at about 60*ABDC. So, we might extrapolate that to say that these AVL cams might have similar intake closing timing as the Iron Barrel, but uses a higher compression piston. Maybe.

To get 160 psi compression test pressure with different cams, I left everything the same, except I moved the intake closing timing. This showed that the cam would have 5 degrees earlier intake closing timing than the stock cams. That would bump the compression some, with all else being the same. That's assuming you didn't change anything like piston height with different base gasket, or different chamber volume from a thinner head gasket, or anything like that.

This is based on some assumptions, because some of the usual necessary data needed to be guessed at, with some reasonable guesses that are likely not too far off.

If you got this AFTER retarding the inlet by a tooth, to avoid piston/valve contact at TDC, I would conclude that the S Cams(as the dots are marked) have quite advanced timing in terms of early opening and closing of the intake valve, and probably a very much tighter lobe center angle, compared to stock AVL cams.
I would also assume that if you had to do this retarding of the intake to avoid piston/valve contact, that everybody needs to do this with the S Cams. Is this the standard installation recommendation for the S Cams? 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 12:33:35 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2014, 01:52:39 PM »
Hi all.
In most cases, the 'S' cams work timed to the 'dots', but the two I know of that needed to be retarded on the inlet cam by 1 tooth are the machine owned by Bill Harris and the machine I have here.
 That said, I have been aware of the close proximity of the valves to the piston crown on TDC overlap on these machines since I first got involved with them and always stress that when fitting these cams, the engine should be turned over very gently by hand with the spark plug out, to check for interference between valves and piston.
 My favourite way is to fit the exhaust cam alone to start with and test with the usual 'nil' valve clearance first. If all is well like this, I then unwind the adjuster [to lengthen the pushrod] by 6 flats of the adjuster, or 1 full turn. I repeat the test and if there is no sign of valve / piston interference, it is good to go, although 8 flats and clearance is a bonus, the 6 flats will do. I have not heard of an exhaust cam giving any clearance issues while timed 'on the dots' to date, but if the case were to arise, advancing its' timing would be called for.
 Next, the inlet cam goes in 'on the dots' and again, the engine is turned over very carefully by hand with the valve clearance at 'nil' - a spanner on the worm nut hexagon is good for this. Either, the engine will make two full revolutions, or it may come to a stop as it just comes up on TDC overlap. If all is well, I lengthen the pushrod adjuster by 4 flats and if there is still no obstruction, it is good to go, although 6 flats clearing is a bonus. If I encounter an obstruction, either set at 'nil' clearance, or overadjusted, then I retard the inlet cam by 1 tooth, as I have done in the machine currently here, which has a 64 mm diameter, 2 mm deep 'raised' area in the centre of the piston crown [see below], but the valve faces left standard. On the machine I tuned a few years ago, I bevelled the faces of the valve heads and reduced their diameters very slightly, to give leeway for all the different cams and timings that I tried, so I had a little extra leeway with this machine.
 In view of how well this machine is working [with 9.2:1 compression] with the inlet cam retarded by 1 tooth, perhaps I should recommend this as the default timing and 'on the dots' as the alternative that may not always be workable.
 I will do some digging later, as I wrote up all the cams and cam timings tried in the AVL a few years back and the 'S' cams' data will be in with them. It has also been mentioned that the depth of the cuts on the valve seat faces can vary from the factory, so, some valves may be closer to a piston than others.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:02:44 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2014, 02:29:46 PM »
Thank you, Paul!

Just wondering about that piston in the picture. I thought the AVL pistons were flat or dished. What is that piston?
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Re: s cams
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2014, 03:39:42 PM »
Thank you, Paul!

Just wondering about that piston in the picture. I thought the AVL pistons were flat or dished. What is that piston?

I was wondering this too.  That piston crown doesn't look familiar.  It almost looks like something out of a diesel tractor.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2014, 04:34:56 PM »
I was wondering this too.  That piston crown doesn't look familiar.  It almost looks like something out of a diesel tractor.
Scottie

            I'd also like to ask BW what brand cylinder base & head gaskets he uses. I'm gathering various bits & pieces of information from all over the place on gaskets before my head comes back from the wizards.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2014, 05:31:15 PM »
Thank you, Paul!

Just wondering about that piston in the picture. I thought the AVL pistons were flat or dished. What is that piston?
Hi Ace,
 That is a stock piston, with a modified crown, to suit the cylinder barrel being shortened by 2 mm, the bottom of the liner must also lose 2 mm, or it will foul on the flywheels. Basically, I machine the piston crown inwards, removing 10 mm radially and to a depth of 2 mm. This has the effect of retaining the squish clearance, while 'adding' a 2 mm deep by 64 mm diameter 'dome' in the centre, to raise the C.R. from 8.5:1 to 9.2:1.
 Any gaskets I use would be supplied by Hitchcocks and are nothing special that I am aware of.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2014, 03:06:30 PM »
I have just found some of my original notes from the AVL Electra X project from 2008.
 The valve timings I recorded were as follows, for both STD and 'S' type cams timed 'on their marks':
 In Opens   STD =  9 deg BTDC
              S cam = 30 deg BTDC [1 tooth retarded = 12 deg] 
 In Closes   STD = 54 deg ABDC
              S cam = 75 deg ABDC [1 tooth retarded = 93 deg]
 EX Opens  STD = 72 deg BBDC
              S cam = 85 deg BBDC
 EX Closes  STD = 18 deg ATDC
              S cam = 50 deg ATDC
 Despite using some painstaking and accurate measuring methods, I rarely get exactly the same results to the degree twice in a row, particularly with RE Bullets, but the figures shown would stand pretty well for the machine I tuned at the time and the three batches of 'S' cams I have already had made are copies from these very cams which were sent away to the cam makers for this very purpose, so the above should be a good guide.
 Retarding [or advancing] a cam by 1 tooth = 18 deg of crank rotation relative to it, this is allowed for in the above figures in brackets for the inlet 'S' cams.
 It will also be noted that the exhaust valve 'gets away' with being partially open at lift / degree figures which would certainly cause trouble for the inlet valve and piston, if timed likewise, but on the other side of TDC, obviously, and this is because the exhaust valve is so much smaller in head diameter than the inlet valve.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 06:42:11 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2014, 04:28:50 PM »
B.W.,
Great info!
Thanks for sharing that.

I would be happy to comment on my views of what might be expected to happen performance-wise, regarding the different timings of the different installations of these cams, if anyone wants to hear that.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2014, 04:45:01 PM »

I would be happy to comment on my views of what might be expected to happen performance-wise, regarding the different timings of the different installations of these cams, if anyone wants to hear that.
Please feel free to do so, Ace !
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2014, 07:33:35 PM »
Okay, first I'll reiterate the data from B.W., and fill in the rest of the data for each set, which I can derive from the info that B.W. posted.

Stock AVL cams.
IVO 9*BTDC
IVC  54*ABDC
EVO 72*BBDC
EVC  18*ATDC
Intake Duration 243 degrees
Exhaust Duration 270 degrees
Intake cam centerline  112.5*ATDC 
Exhaust cam centerline 117*BTDC
Lobe separation angle 114.75*
Overlap Period 27 degrees

S Cams
IVO 30*BTDC
IVC 75*ABDC
EVO 85*BBDC
EVC 50*ATDC
Intake duration 285 degrees
Exhaust duration 315 degrees
Intake lobe centerline 112.5*ATDC
Exhaust lobe centerline 107.5*BTDC
Lobe separation angle 110 degrees
Overlap period 80 degrees

S Cams (1 tooth retarded)
IVO 12*BTDC
IVC  93*ABDC
EVO 85*BBDC (Exhaust Cam not retarded)
EVC 50*ATDC  "
Intake duration 285 degrees
Exhaust duration 315 degrees
Intake Centerline 130.5*ATDC
Exhaust Centerline 107.5*BTDC
Lobe Separation Angle 119*
Overlap period 62 degrees

Now, some commentary.

First, the stock AVL cams
The stock AVL cams are a relatively short duration intake cam, with a considerably longer duration exhaust cam, with a little shorter lift on the exhaust by .020"(half-mm).
They open the intake valve quite late, and close the intake relatively early, compared to earlier Bullet cams. This seems to be intended to keep the overlap period short to preserve lower rpm torque, and closing early enough to prevent much reversion up the intake. It's basically a torque cam, or profile which might be used for towing a sidecar, or band-aiding a slow port. It is not a high revving type of cam design. But it has enough to get it up to a reasonable top speed, similar to previous Bullets.
The exhaust cam reflects an attempt to work with the relatively smaller exhaust port, and the lower exhaust valve lift, to extend the exhaust stream velocity over a longer time period, so that the extraction effects might help to better scavenge the exhaust from the chamber during overlap, and help the somewhat slower intake port get moving before the piston starts going down. This is not an unusual practice. It actually is pretty well targeted for the typical Indian Bullet market in India.

The S Cams have a sportier profile, and this is the first time that I have seen specs on the S Cams. I was wondering how they were getting more results from the AVL, and now I know how. The lift isn't really different, although I still dont know if the exhaust cam lifts lower than the intake. Even so, it is clear that the S Cams have much longer duration on both intake and exhaust cam. The exhaust cam is actually in the category of racing cams in terms of duration, but not lift.
The intake cam has similar duration as the Iron Barrel cams have, and similar lift height at max. But there is a big difference in the timing and lobe center. In fact, these S Cams are remarkably similar timing to our Ace Magnum Cams, but without the added lift.
It opens the intake valve earlier than the stock AVL cams, for added overlap, which helps to extend the higher rpms, but may have some unwanted impact at lower rpm torque production. It would be generally considered in the sportier type cam overlap category. This trend continues with the later intake valve closing angle, which is much later than any of the stock Indian Bullet cams. This is also a sportier type of design, also intended to work with a higher rpm range. And the duration allows higher rpm than standard AVL cams, too. It will support higher rpm running, even without any higher lift at the valves, because it gives more time for the cylinder to get filled.
The 112.5*ATDC lobe center of the intake valve just happens to be the same as the Ace Magnum Cams.
The exhaust cam  is a little too long for my taste, but it certainly is not short on duration. It will permit higher rpm running, because it gives plenty of time to get the exhaust out. It opens fairly early, so it will actually work better with higher compression than it would with lower compression. This is fine, and it also happens to be  close to the same EVO timing as our Ace Magnum exhaust cam. But this long duration has a price, which turns out to be what I consider a "late" EVC timing of 50*ATDC. I think this is a little too late, and I think it will have some adverse effects on the low rpm torque. But it will support higher rpm running better. It's in the nature of the sporty cam type it is. For reference, the Ace Magnum Cams have an EVC timing of 32*ATDC.
The overlap period is pretty wide, but not too wide. It has 80 degrees of overlap, biased by 20 extra degrees on the exhaust closing side. Quite a decent overlap period for a sporty cam. It will support higher rpm running quite well, and it isn't too harmful to lower rpm torque, but there will be some effects to lower rpm torque compared to the very short overlap and short duration of the stock AVL cams.

So, in general, I think that the S Cams are a pretty sporty cam set, in terms of timing events. They fairly closely mimic the Ace Magnum Cams for timing, except for that later exhaust valve closing timing that the S Cams have. Other than that, its quite similar in timing, and the Magnum cams just primarily have more lift. I would be favorably impressed with these cams in a stock AVL or also an Iron Barrel Bullet.

The S Cams with the one-tooth retarding on the intake cam are starting to get into a timing range which I consider close(or into) the "out of bounds" area for timing in a normal engine. The 93*ABDC intake closing event is really very long, and the port that I saw in the AVL would have to rev quite high to be able to support that late of an IVC event. And at the same time, the late intake opening timing shortens the overlap period enough to likely impinge on the overlap period needed for such higher rpm running that would be necessary to work with that late of an IVC event. Lobe centers in the 130 ATDC range are not typical in regular engines.  So, I think that retarding of the intake cam on this S Cam set is a little too extreme for my tastes.
The exhaust remains the same as before, since it is not retarded.

The side effects of this are that any time an intake cam closes the intake valve something like 20 degrees later than the cam that was taken out of there, there will be some compression effects. I would expect that the engine will need to go to a higher compression piston, and/or a 535 piston to take best advantage of this cam set. I realize that Bill Harris had installed this set retarded by a tooth, and his compression test didn't change much. I don't have an answer for that, but I wouldn't expect that situation to be typical. I think that was an anomaly which cannot be counted upon to happen. It shouldn't happen, given the specification change. I just can't account for it. When we do this sort of thing in the Iron Barrel, it always needs a higher compression piston to compensate for the cam timing change.
Anyway, be advised that you MIGHT likely need to use a higher compression piston and/or 535 piston to get the most out of this cam set. Obviously, it can work without that, but if the compression is brought up closer to max for the fuel being used, it can work even better. We always do it.

So, there you have it.
The S Cams are a pretty sporty cam set, IMO.
If I were using them myself, I would install them "on the dots" and do a compression test to see if I needed to increase it with the new cams. Always do a clearance check for piston-to-valve clearance, as B.W. suggests, when installing new cams, and/or increasing compression.
I would like to see them in an AVL with our port job and our hi-ratio roller rockers, pushing over .450" lift. That would be a real nice package there.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 08:01:16 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2014, 09:22:33 AM »
Thanks, Ace!
 Just for clarity, the Electra X AVL engines have a rocker ratio of 1.1:1, so the valve lift will be a little more than the height of any cam lobe operating either of the valves.
 Also, I think the valve bounce is caused / aggravated with the STD cams, because the lobe is little more than a sudden 'blip' and the valves might be closing very suddenly and violently without much / any contact between cam follower and closing flank of the cam at critical RPM's, that they tend to bounce open again, off the base circles.
 With the 'S' cams having a longer duration, perhaps, even if a follower and closing flank of a cam lost contact with each other, soon after full lift perhaps, the valve may be closing before the base circle arrives under the follower and in doing so, softens the 'blow' and allows the valve to seat smoothly at the end of the cycle and the engine can carry on producing revs and power.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2014, 12:37:13 PM »
B.W.,
Well, that little bit of rocker ratio is very helpful in a situation like this. So, I'm happy to hear that.

It seems to me that that the factory picked a spring that was just barely adequate for the  stock bike rev range application. Maybe they even intended it to be a type of rev limiter.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 12:42:16 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2014, 12:51:42 PM »

It seems to me that that the factory just picked a spring that was not quite properly spec'd for the application.
I don't know about that, Ace, because I modified things a bit and fitted the Hitchcocks competition double valve spring set, as used for some 'Iron' engine tuning jobs, but they failed to stop the valve bounce. The standard AVL set up is a single, very strong spring, but this is no good either, obviously.
 I don't know if any reasonable spring set up would properly control the valves with the standard cams installed. I presume the exhaust valve probably bounces hard as well, but the inlet valve bounce will be killing the revs. Also, as already stated elsewhere, the valve stems and collets are receiving severe punishment when this valve bounce occurs and I have heard of several cases where the pushrod ends get thrown out of their [too shallow] sockets in the rocker ends, causing roadside breakdown - these rocker end sockets could do with some improvement, too.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2014, 01:03:46 PM »
We will soon find out if the beehive springs will solve this on Tooseevee's head.

If they don't,  then it looks like there will be a lot of cam changing happening with the AVL engines.

Regarding the rockers, I would like to put the roller rockers on all these things, but I am concerned that the budget is too high for a lot of folks. It would require a new piston and pushrods, etc., along with all the head mods. That could get beyond many people's price range.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:12:25 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2014, 06:02:13 PM »
Hi,

the stock rockers do seem pretty substantial, is there scope for lightening and polishing them safely?

Regards,

A.


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Re: s cams
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2014, 06:44:37 PM »
Thanks, Ace!
 Just for clarity, the Electra X AVL engines have a rocker ratio of 1.1:1,
 

Hmmm. Compatible with the UCE/Iron Barrel engine ?? Say yes !

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Re: s cams
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2014, 07:09:29 PM »
Hmmm. Compatible with the UCE/Iron Barrel engine ?? Say yes !

No, the AVL has a large rocker housing with shaft type rockers. The UCE has block style rockers like the older Bullet, but not the same.

Theoretically, a billet housing might be made to use these AVL rockers, but it wouldn't be worth the effort for such a small change. We can do the billet housing for the UCE,  but we will do it with roller rockers and more lift ratio. Then the improvements will be more worthy of the expense.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2014, 08:04:09 PM »
There are several people out there that have installed 'S' cams in AVL powered machines.  I think it would be helpful to understand the benefits of the 'S' cams, where the rubber meets the road, if you with 'S' cams installed, would give us your experience, on this thread.  What it took to install the cams and how the cams effected your performance with out and or with other modifications to your bike. 

My experience with 'S' cams are:
I had intake valve to piston interference.  To remedy this, I timed the exhaust cam to the timing marks and the intake cam one gear tooth retarded.  The 'S' cams fit right into the timing chest just as the stock cams did.  No alterations to the chest needed. The bike runs very good.  I'm getting more RPMs out of the engine.  Don't know just how many, I don't have a tachometer.  The bike can make 75 mph in forth gear and 80 mph in fifth.  I got 160 psi on my compression check with the 'S' cams, intake cam one gear tooth retarded.  I got 155 psi on the stock cams timed to the marks.  These compression checks were made with a 30mm PWK flat-slide carburetor, K&N pancake air filter, and a free flowing, upswept exhaust with the Indian made classic short silencer installed.  I also have very good low speed throttle response.  The bike is running stock gearing with a 18" rear wheel.  The engine has a very useable and predictable power ban.  All of this is on 87 octane fuel.  I'm very happy with the performance with these modifications.  I think the 'S' cams are a good addition to the overall performance of the Harris Scrambler.   

Cheers,
Bill
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 04:29:24 PM by Bill Harris »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2014, 08:42:12 PM »
Hi,

the stock rockers do seem pretty substantial, is there scope for lightening and polishing them safely?

Regards,

A.
Adrian,
I would say yes, but obviously there would be limits on the amount of metal to remove. Lower moving mass is good for higher revving. Polishing is more for removing pits and sharp inside corners, or any other surface imperfections, for the purposes of removing likely stress - risers that may develop into cracks. The polishing part can be done all you want. The removal of metal needs to be judicious,  using your best judgment, so as to avoid weakening the part.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2014, 09:01:05 PM »
Bill,
It sounds to me like you got the results that I would expect from the mod. And you obviously did a careful job with all the right checks to be sure that it would be okay, and you found a piston - to - valve clearance issue, and you corrected it, and you did the compression tests with the results in the area which we would want.
So, I am not casting any doubt on your installation or results. You diligently executed a successful installation,  using proper methods.

However, there are variations in Enfield parts and castings which can be seen when dealing with one machine to the next. Yours might have been one way, but we might see differences in other engines. Apparently Paul has noticed these variations too. There could be any number of reasons for it.
So, you did the right things, with all the proper methods, and got a good result. I applaud you for that.

The results should be mostly seen in upper rpm power, with little or no reduction in low rpm torque noticed, as long as care is taken to be sure that the compression did not fall from the modifications.  If it does, we have some remedies to deal with that, on an individual basis, based on what is being seen in the particular engine in question.

BTW, 80 mph with stock gearing is probably very close to 5000 rpm in top gear. Depending on how high the sidewalls are on your rear tire, it might be just a little above or below that rpm.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 09:06:31 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2014, 11:56:21 PM »
Thanks, Ace

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill   
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 07:13:38 PM by Bill Harris »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2014, 08:16:09 PM »
The machine I installed the 'S' cams into, with the inlet cam retarded by 1 tooth left here today. The owner arrived by train and rode it home some 70 miles or so. I asked him to let me know how it all went and he phoned to say it went very well and he is very happy with it. That will do for me.  ;)
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2014, 08:43:27 PM »
+1  :D
Scottie J
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Re: s cams
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2014, 12:42:45 AM »
Yep.
If they are happy, that's what counts.
Good to hear.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2014, 05:09:17 PM »
BW,
The cams are the best thing for making the bike go like a bullet.

I also.noticed that after putting back the BS32 carb on my bike the low rpm torque seems much improved as compared with the TM flatslide. The bike actually does power wheelie in the first if I pop the clutch. However the bike's top end has dropped with this carb. Do CV carbs help boost low end torque? 

Secondly, once the rpms cross 4000 the clutch starts to slip despite having stronger Endurance clutch springs installed !! Is there  way to improve the AVL clutch with use of better springs or different clutch plates ?  I did run the bike without the oil in the primary side as a test and that stops the slip. But I don't think that is a solution. Any suggestions from AVL members with S cams will be helpful. Thanks.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2014, 11:07:12 PM »
BW,
The cams are the best thing for making the bike go like a bullet.

I also.  noticed that after putting back the BS32 carb on my bike the low rpm torque seems much improved as compared with the TM flatslide.  The bike actually does power wheelie in the first if I pop the clutch.  However the bike's top end has dropped with this carb. Do CV carbs help boost low end torque? 

Secondly, once the rpms cross 4000 the clutch starts to slip despite having stronger Endurance clutch springs installed !!  Is there  way to improve the AVL clutch with use of better springs or different clutch plates?  I did run the bike without the oil in the primary side as a test and that stops the slip. But I don't think that is a solution.  Any suggestions from AVL members with S cams will be helpful.  Thanks.

TejK,

If your clutch is adjusted correctly, try F type ATF in your primary.  I use this in the Harris Scrambler and get no clutch slippage at all, pulling hard at any RPM.  This on the stock clutch with over 35,000 miles on it.

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill   

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Re: s cams
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2014, 03:42:03 PM »
Thank You for the reply Bill.
Appreciate the tip on the ATF F type. I will work on the bike this weekend and clean up the clutch side before replacing the oil with ATF. Will update once I get to it.

Did you have any cam-follower wearing out issues with you bike (using the AVL cam followers) ? The exhaust follower wore out so I had replaced both recently, however, it seems like the followers are again starting to wear out again.

Thanks,
Tej

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Re: s cams
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2014, 04:27:43 PM »
Try using motorcycle oil with an off-road rating, or oil with about 1200 ppm ZDDP(zinc and phosphorous additive). The recent oil formulas have lower ZDDP in them because that helps catalytic converter life in cars. The ZDDP is needed for wear resistance in vintage flat tappet systems like we have because of high loading in that area. Modern vehicles have roller tappets which don't wear as much because they roll. Cams and tappets in flat tappet engines need more of the ZDDP additive. 1200 ppm is good. It doesn't need more than that. This has been a known issue in vintage engines for a number of years now, since the oil formulas were changed.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2014, 05:30:27 PM »
Thank You for the reply Bill.
Appreciate the tip on the ATF F type. I will work on the bike this weekend and clean up the clutch side before replacing the oil with ATF. Will update once I get to it.

Did you have any cam-follower wearing out issues with you bike (using the AVL cam followers) ? The exhaust follower wore out so I had replaced both recently, however, it seems like the followers are again starting to wear out again.

Thanks,
Tej

Tej,

I have noticed no apparent wear of the cam-followers in the Harris Scrambler.  I did break an exhaust cam-follower some time ago when I had the stock cams in the bike.  For the engine lubricant I use 20W-50  Amsoil with high zinc.  This oil is a synthetic and has about 1500 ppm of zinc and phosphorous additives.  Whatever oil you use, it's very important that it has zinc and phosphorous in it for your tappers, just like ace.cafe said.

If your clutch plates are good, and you have F type ATF in your primary, and you continue to have clutch slippage, you can try Barnett Friction plates.  The Barnett plates are much better than the stock plates.  When I need new plates I'll get Barnett.  I use a full quart of ATF in my primary.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Bill       
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 07:43:25 PM by Bill Harris »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2014, 02:54:43 PM »
Hi Ace, Bill,
You maybe be right on with the oil - with the old cast iron engine getting phased out its getting harder to get engine oil specifically for the 'Bullet' so I have been using 20W50 which is meant for petrol car engines.

Will adding an oil additive like STP help. I will definitely use a high Zinc /PH oil after I manage to replace the followers with new ones.

Thank You.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2014, 03:21:08 PM »
Hi Ace, Bill,
You maybe be right on with the oil - with the old cast iron engine getting phased out its getting harder to get engine oil specifically for the 'Bullet' so I have been using 20W50 which is meant for petrol car engines.

Will adding an oil additive like STP help. I will definitely use a high Zinc /PH oil after I manage to replace the followers with new ones.

Thank You.

Yes, STP Oil Additive is very high in ZDDP and would be a good additive to use.  I generally use RotellaT 15w-40 as it is blended with high amounts of ZDDP from the factory.  But if for whatever reason I use regular car oil in my crankcase, I will add about a 1/3 of a bottle of STP Oil Additive to get the ZDDP in there.

Scottie J
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Re: s cams
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2014, 07:05:32 PM »
We use Valvoline VR1 in 20/50 grade in our Enfield race bikes, with no other additives and no problems. The other bikes get Morris's 20/50, which is cheaper, but still very good.  ;) [ I don't know about availability of either of these products worldwide, though]
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http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pdf

http://www.morrislubricants.co.uk/scripts/prodview.asp?idcat=114&idProduct=251
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 07:10:40 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2014, 07:35:58 PM »
VR1 used to be available at Advance Auto but I believe they discontinued it shortly before I left there.  Auto Zone may still sell it tho.

Scottie J
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Re: s cams
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2014, 08:24:48 PM »
BW,

What octane do you use in your 500 9.2:1 compression AVL engines?

Cheers,
Bill
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 08:28:47 PM by Bill Harris »

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Re: s cams
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2014, 09:48:58 PM »
BW,

What octane do you use in your 500 9.2:1 compression AVL engines?

Cheers,
Bill
Hi Bill,
 I will check next time I visit the local filling station, but I know it is their cheapest, most basic unleaded that I use in pretty much everything - including an R.E. Crusader I tuned a few years back which was just shy of 13:1 cr. This machine ran fine on it, despite being earmarked to use methanol, so this was a big, but very welcome surprise !
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2014, 04:51:11 PM »
Finally, finally got around to installing the cams. 



Couple of hiccups:
1.  For the life of me, cant find the timing marks on the pinion!!  Had to mark it myself based on TDC and original cam locations.
2.  Previous owner used some type of space aged gray goo as gasket material.  Tooks multiple hours to get all that crap off!!
3.  Reached for my new gasket and found out its the wrong one!  Waiting on CMW for a replacement. 

No valve/piston interference noticed & the original push rod adjusters fit nicely, so thats good.  And the exhaust decomp/lifter came out easy (fiddly tho! Good luck 2CV getting that thing back on).

Things to still do: 
- Install TM32
- New drag bars
- New DID chain

Hopefully it'll all be done before the RE One Ride on the 6th!
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Re: s cams
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2014, 05:59:21 AM »
Finally, finally got around to installing the cams. 

Couple of hiccups:
1.  For the life of me, cant find the timing marks on the pinion!!  Had to mark it myself based on TDC and original cam locations.


Hi Dan,
the timing mark on the pinion generally gets covered by the oil pump worm. You can unscrew the lock nut and you will be able to see the mark.
Happy Bulleteer-ing !!

Regards,
Tej

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Re: s cams
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2014, 06:02:27 AM »
TejK,

If your clutch is adjusted correctly, try F type ATF in your primary.  I use this in the Harris Scrambler and get no clutch slippage at all, pulling hard at any RPM.  This on the stock clutch with over 35,000 miles on it.

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill

Hi Bill,
I finally open up the clutch, cleaned it, adjusted the timing chain and added the ATF to the Primary.

The clutch has definetly improved with the clutch engaging quite positively now. Haven't found any slip after using the ATF. I couldn't find the F type and am using the A type ATF which was available.

Thanks Again !

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Re: s cams
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2014, 11:54:19 AM »

........The clutch has definetly improved with the clutch engaging quite positively now. Haven't found any slip after using the ATF. I couldn't find the F type and am using the A type ATF which was available.........

Type A?!   ???
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

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Re: s cams
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2014, 01:49:21 AM »
Hi Dan,
the timing mark on the pinion generally gets covered by the oil pump worm. You can unscrew the lock nut and you will be able to see the mark.
Happy Bulleteer-ing !!

Regards,
Tej

Doh!  Never though of that!  Having a stupid moment.....
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Re: s cams
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2014, 02:04:21 AM »
The pinion worm nut is a left hand thread. Turn it the other way to get it off.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2014, 10:26:41 AM »
For future reference, mark the pinion tooth next to the timing mark with a dab of paint while the worm is off!

A.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2014, 01:39:53 PM »
Excellent thinking. Did that last night  ;D
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Re: s cams
« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2014, 06:26:13 AM »
Hi,
just wanted to check if anyone here using the 'S' cams has replaced the stock header on the AVL with a bigger one or is using one without the inner pipe which is present inside the stock header ( I am not referring to the hot tube which is towards the muffler end) but I notice that the AVL stock header is double walled.

Will replacing the stock one with a open/single pipe header improve things. I am already using the S cams and was wondering if the better header will further improve things on the bike.

Your inputs will be appreciated before I cut up the header and experiment.

Thanks

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Re: s cams
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2014, 07:31:45 AM »
Hi TejK,

I don't think the pipe is double walled but there is that large steel ring at the head. I ground mine down by 2 to 3 mm to better match the port (used the washer as a template). My thinking is the more you can unrestricted things, the better!  Can't say how much better as I've done multiple things to the bike all at the same time.

If I recall a number of owners have done this, including BW and on the Harris Scrambler.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2014, 02:43:54 AM »
Finally got around to a test run (been traveling) with the new cams.

I should also note that I have a TM32 on the bike now as well, along with a few other winter mods...

First off, the carb: started with a 30 pilot; it was way too rich.  Put in a 27.5 and now it starts first kick(1.5 turns out).  Doesnt like any choke at the moment (its been 60-70s) here.  Think my 1/4 to 1/2 throttle is too rich.  Currently using a 190 main and a P6 needle jet.  Needle is stock, on the middle clip at the moment.  I fabbed up a cable from an iron barrel.

s-Cams:  Noticed nothing different (except a very responsive throttle and good torque) at the low rpm.  Noticed a huge difference between 2400 and 5000 rpm!  Same as Bill Harris, I hit an indicated 75 mph in fourth, around 4900 rpm (I have a cheap little digi tach; not very responsive).  I didnt get a chance to drop into 5th and go WOT due to traffic.  I need a good stretch of road to do my plug chops.  Again, I think im rich in the middle and have a few flat spots to work out.  I think the valves are quieter with the s cams.  They are not to tight and the cam lash was set very conservatively (not tight at all). 

Other mods:
- Hated the drag bars.  Didnt like the way the controls and master cylinder laid out.  Put the super bars back on.
- Dremelded the exhaust pipe at the head and took down that steel ring by a couple of mm.
- Fixed a couple of leaks on the gear box and primary; now have a small leak from the timing cover (new gaskets with a little sealant).
- New DID chain.
- Cheap eBay bar end mirrors that dont vibrate at all!  http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-8-Handlebar-Bar-End-Mirrors-for-Harley-Triumph-Ducati-BMW-Buell-Streetfighter/271251590982?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D21399%26meid%3D6350740824252992455%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9407%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D350842841970&rt=nc

Very happen with the cams and carb.  Should have done this a while back.  Thanks again to BW for providing these cams!  What a difference.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2014, 12:34:57 PM »
Great news, Dan and thanks for sharing your impressions of these cams! They really are exceeding all my initial expectations and I am certain that, used alone on an otherwise standard machine, they would make a very noticeable difference.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2014, 12:44:12 PM »
Very nice report.

Now, you're hooked!
 8)
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Re: s cams
« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2014, 06:01:09 PM »
My cafe avl would love some s cams :(

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Re: s cams
« Reply #100 on: April 21, 2014, 07:30:52 PM »
My cafe avl would love some s cams :(

There may be a way for you to get them in the future.
Do not despair!
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Re: s cams
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2014, 12:08:37 AM »
My cafe avl would love some s cams :(

I thought you got a set...?  There really is a noticeable difference and I'm thinking the next mod (over next winter) is some top end work at Aces just like 2CV.  My commuter bike really thinks it wants to do the ton.  ::)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 12:50:08 AM by DanB »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2014, 12:29:24 PM »
Paul - Do you have any dyno reports of Stock AVLs? Maybe Asbo 11? before the transformation?



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Re: s cams
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2014, 12:39:49 PM »
I thought you got a set...?...........

Armando decided he wanted a new tattoo instead of dealing with international exchanges.

http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/index.php/topic,17928.30.html
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Re: s cams
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2014, 12:47:18 PM »
Paul - Do you have any dyno reports of Stock AVLs? Maybe Asbo 11? before the transformation?
Sadly, no - No 11 was in one day and pretty much out the next, with the cam swap and some other work done, but I remember the Hitchcock machine arriving with some work already done - carb, exhaust etc and giving power in the low 20's [about 23 BHP rings a bell]. It left here  with 33.34 BHP, not a bad increase and the cams played a very big part in that  ;)
 I don't think I would make a very good job of a tattoo for anyone, though  :o
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Re: s cams
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2014, 04:24:20 PM »
75hp in 4th gear?  Who-da-lolly that sounds nice!  I have to admit, I'm a bit intimidated by the installation of them but I'm going to have to try it.

This may be a "no dumb questions" dumb question but, do the cams change the air/fuel mixture at all?  Is re-jetting required?  At some point I'd like the TM32 that a bunch of  you folks are running in your AVLs, and that Tom is running on his Fireballs.  Dan, keep us posted on your tuning of the carbs.

Lot of good, tempting info here.  Thanks guys.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2014, 04:49:27 PM »
75hp in 4th gear?  Who-da-lolly that sounds nice!  I have to admit, I'm a bit intimidated by the installation of them but I'm going to have to try it.

This may be a "no dumb questions" dumb question but, do the cams change the air/fuel mixture at all?  Is re-jetting required?  At some point I'd like the TM32 that a bunch of  you folks are running in your AVLs, and that Tom is running on his Fireballs.  Dan, keep us posted on your tuning of the carbs.

Lot of good, tempting info here.  Thanks guys.

Probably wouldn't require a jetting change. Maybe if you have not got your existing jetting up to par at higher rpms, it might need some attention. Always a good idea to do some plug chops when making changes to the engine.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #107 on: April 23, 2014, 05:08:58 PM »
DanB,

Sounds good.  Have you gotten into 5th yet?  What is your final gearing, stock or are you geared up one tooth on your countershaft sprocket?


boggy,
   
No re-jetting was required on the Harris Scrambler after installing the 'S' cams.  But always check after changing thing to the motor.

Royal Enfield people are good people

Cheers,
Bill

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Re: s cams
« Reply #108 on: April 23, 2014, 06:08:42 PM »
Good to know Bill, thanks.  And I know we are running the same PWK carb.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2014, 04:39:57 PM »
Quote
Dan, keep us posted on your tuning of the carbs.

Will do Boggy!

Quote
Have you gotten into 5th yet?  What is your final gearing, stock or are you geared up one tooth on your countershaft sprocket?

Thanks Bill. No I haven't!  I decided I needed to give the front disc caliper a good cleaning and lube. Then the cold rain came!  I'm on an 18t sprocket and I think that's stock on the AVL Electra.

I'm fairly certain I'll be using a 18x main and p4 now and then a p2 this summer. No data to support any of this however until I get some quality chop time.  This weekend it'll be in the mid 40s. Not ideal.... But fun to be had!

Gotta say, wouldn't have done any of this without this forum! Thanks all! As Bill says, "Royal Enfield people are good people".
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Re: s cams
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2014, 01:02:13 AM »
Quick update:  beautiful day. Upper 60s. Found 5th gear, and made good progress to an indicated 85mph; could have done more I think, but the police made me stop and messed up my plug chop run. Now I gotta pay an extra bill... Gotta pay more attention to the median!

Sweet spot is right around 70 in 5th at about 4000ish rpm. Very pleasant.

Plug chops. I think I need help reading my plugs - they all look the same to me! but I'll start a different thread.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 01:20:08 AM by DanB »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2014, 12:10:03 PM »
Quick update:  beautiful day. Upper 60s. Found 5th gear, and made good progress to an indicated 85mph; could have done more I think, but the police made me stop and messed up my plug chop run. Now I gotta pay an extra bill... Gotta pay more attention to the median!

Sweet spot is right around 70 in 5th at about 4000ish rpm. Very pleasant.
That all looks very promising, Dan. I remember doing the 100 MPH + runs on the machine I tuned a few years back and a little part of me would have been happy to get 'done' by the police, just to make it more 'official'  ;D
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2014, 01:03:29 PM »
She clocked me at 74 when I asked her how fast. I tried to tell explain what I was doing and she was having none of it.  Lucky I let off the throttle when I did see her; 20 mph over would get me a court date.  :o Last time I checked (about 2 years ago) my speedo is +6 over true speed.

Have to say, a very attractive officer of the law
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Re: s cams
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2014, 02:24:19 PM »
That all looks very promising, Dan. I remember doing the 100 MPH + runs on the machine I tuned a few years back and a little part of me would have been happy to get 'done' by the police, just to make it more 'official'  ;D
 B.W.

That thought crosses my mind as well when I am doing top speed runs.  "Wait.  Are you sure about that officer?  I don't think my bike will even go that fast.  Maybe we should find a better road and test to make sure your radar is working properly."  ;D

Scottie J
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Re: s cams
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2014, 02:41:23 PM »
That thought crosses my mind as well when I am doing top speed runs.  "Wait.  Are you sure about that officer?  I don't think my bike will even go that fast.  Maybe we should find a better road and test to make sure your radar is working properly."  ;D

Scottie J

 ;D ;D ;D

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Re: s cams
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2014, 06:11:03 PM »
Had my '09 dyno'd with less than 1000 miles, didn't know anything at the time, with a k&n air filter, stock exhaust, stock carb rejetted,
    I believe it was 18 hp
                                           Matt in Glendale Az

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Re: s cams
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2014, 01:34:03 PM »
All this is, of course, part of the downside of speed testing on public highways! I can't speak for US law enforcement, but over here in the UK getting stopped for doing 100 mph is a licence buster. And who knows who else reads these forums?  :o

A.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2014, 01:43:13 PM »
The nice thing about Colorado is that a lot of the police officers are Hot Rodders themselves.  I've heard several stories of guys being pulled over, interrogated about what is under the hood and then challenged to a race.  I personally haven't had this experience but I did have one officer compliment me at a stop light about how great the Blackhawk sounds and looks, and have had 2 others come up to me while filling up at the gas station.  :)
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Re: s cams
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2014, 04:40:54 PM »
Hey Guys, i was able to acquire a used pair of s cams from hitchcocks!  I am really hazy on the installation.  Is it the same installation proccess as BW's S cams?  I hope they have the same effect.  H's rated them at 6/10 which is slightly above average.  They look fine to me except one of them has a slight rust color on the front. 

To bad i got a DUI last weekend looks like my enfield will be sitting all summer if i lose my license!

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Re: s cams
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2014, 06:44:20 PM »
Hey Guys, i was able to acquire a used pair of s cams from hitchcocks!  I am really hazy on the installation.  Is it the same installation proccess as BW's S cams?
They should work just the same, Just use the same procedure already described for fitting them - they should be good to go 'on the marks', but the inlet may need retarding by 1 tooth at worst.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2014, 07:02:53 PM »
are the "Marks" the cross on the top?

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Re: s cams
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2014, 08:06:02 PM »
are the "Marks" the cross on the top?
No, ignore the crosses. The dots on the cams and the timing pinion are what you need to look at. Ignore what appears to be a second, upper dot on this exhaust cam where it faces the inlet cam, it is just a stain. The lower dot is the one to look at. You can see that in this case, the inlet cam is retarded by 1 tooth in relation to it. The pair of dots together on the exhaust cam line up with the dot on the timing pinion.
 B.W.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 08:13:55 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

armando_chavez

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Re: s cams
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2014, 10:36:53 PM »
how can i clean these cams one of them has a slight rust color on one side?

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Re: s cams
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2014, 11:16:04 PM »
Dry steel wool...
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Re: s cams
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2014, 06:36:18 AM »
how can i clean these cams one of them has a slight rust color on one side?
Put them in the engine and run it, they will soon shine up  ;)
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2014, 10:10:11 PM »
So i put the S cams in today.  It feels like its so much harder to push the kick start lever down.  Idk why.  I would love some insight on how to perfectly adjust the pushrods.  its turns over and everything but it has yet to start. HELP

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Re: s cams
« Reply #126 on: May 25, 2014, 10:54:12 PM »
So i put the S cams in today.  It feels like its so much harder to push the kick start lever down.  Idk why.  I would love some insight on how to perfectly adjust the pushrods.  its turns over and everything but it has yet to start. HELP

You need to stop where you are at and find someone to help you that knows and understands engine assembly.  I'm scared you're going to break your motor.    :-\

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Re: s cams
« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2014, 11:20:16 PM »
I just need some direction.  I put the cams in per direction. i kinda get the jist of how everything works. 

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Re: s cams
« Reply #128 on: May 25, 2014, 11:29:52 PM »
I know for a fact i put the cams in correctly i just need to understand how to adjust the pushrods and how to

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Re: s cams
« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2014, 02:44:44 AM »
To adjust pushrods... BW does include in his instructions to check for valve interference. So this before putting in plug. Don't bend a valve!

Go to You tube, search for "royal enfield adjust", find the video (link here: http://youtu.be/4bmgJPyCUNU) from hoohoohoblin. Ignore the part about the ammeter deflecting, find TDC, everything else is the same except for the wrench sizes. Do this with cold engine.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 03:44:25 AM by DanB »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2014, 09:57:54 PM »
Did anyone have to adjust their carbs after installing S cams?  Also i feel like my kickstarter has gotten immensly harder to push down since installing s cams.  I got an old stock set, maybe its because theyre not broken in?

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Re: s cams
« Reply #131 on: July 18, 2014, 05:37:11 PM »
Without the compression release lever, you have to put moderate pressure on the kickstarter until the piston slowly gets past the compression at TDC, before you kick start it.
Allow the compression to leak past the rings, by giving foot pressure slowly, and it will be easier to kick after it gets to the top.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #132 on: August 03, 2014, 10:25:17 PM »
So i finally got my bike running put a hotter plug i found on the forums.  Is there any info on anybody trying 535cc with the S cams?

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Re: s cams
« Reply #133 on: August 03, 2014, 11:48:12 PM »
So i finally got my bike running put a hotter plug i found on the forums.  Is there any info on anybody trying 535cc with the S cams?
What plug?

535 should work fine with the S cams.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #134 on: August 04, 2014, 12:03:30 AM »
i put the br6es equivalent that my local autoparts store had its a autolite 404 the thing would not start for the love of god with the 8

ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #135 on: August 04, 2014, 01:06:55 AM »
i put the br6es equivalent that my local autoparts store had its a autolite 404 the thing would not start for the love of god with the 8
Well, I guess you have to do what you have to do, but using a way too hot plug to overcome poor carburetor tuning is not a recommended method.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #136 on: August 04, 2014, 05:33:15 AM »
Armando - What carb are you running? and what are the jet sizes?

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Re: s cams
« Reply #137 on: August 04, 2014, 11:16:14 PM »
i appriecate any criticism and advice given please do.  Im running the TM32 with stock needle in stock position with 200 main and 35 pilot.  i might have a 40 pilot in it i dont remember as im running a velocity stack. ill pull it off tomorrow and take a look.

ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #138 on: August 04, 2014, 11:42:31 PM »
i appriecate any criticism and advice given please do.  Im running the TM32 with stock needle in stock position with 200 main and 35 pilot.  i might have a 40 pilot in it i dont remember as im running a velocity stack. ill pull it off tomorrow and take a look.
I would drop down to a 30 pilot and a 185 main for your elevation and summer temps.
P4 needle jet , too.

Get the bike started and warmed up.
Then, use the small air bleed screw to find the highest idle speed you can find by turning it in or out until you reach that highest idle speed.
Then use the big idle speed screw to set the final idle speed around 1000 rpm. Not excessively slow, but stable idle speed.
That should get you pretty close to there.
You'll need to do some plug chops to get the right needle height, but you can try starting out with the clip at the 2nd groove from the top.

My guess is that you were too rich, and needed that hot plug to fire all that raw wet fuel.
Go back to the B8ES plug.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:51:34 PM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #139 on: August 05, 2014, 01:09:03 AM »
Thanks Ace! ill try to get to my supplier tomorrow if i get done plumbing early enough.  I live in jersey and its been around 85-90 degrees.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2014, 05:53:26 AM »
Tom is right about the jetting part.

I will tell you my jetting - I am running a VM34 with 30 pilot, 220 mains but again even with 220 mains I am running rich on a 34 and pilot is right on target!

So for a 32mm carb, even if it's a flatslide, I think the 35 pilot will make you run real rich.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #141 on: September 07, 2014, 02:50:44 AM »
A quick question on the S cams... What would one expect to see in terms of max rpms with the s cams on a stock setup?  Ballpark...

Why do I ask?... I was really laying into it tonight and in both 2nd and 3rd I experienced a rev limiting phenomena. Valves bouncing? I can't say at what rpm. It was dark and I couldn't read the cheapo digi tach (magnetic pulse pickup basically). The tach records max rpm; told me 10,400 and I cannot believe that at all...

Anyone else find out the top end on the s cams?
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ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #142 on: September 07, 2014, 03:29:27 AM »
A quick question on the S cams... What would one expect to see in terms of max rpms with the s cams on a stock setup?  Ballpark...

Why do I ask?... I was really laying into it tonight and in both 2nd and 3rd I experienced a rev limiting phenomena. Valves bouncing? I can't say at what rpm. It was dark and I couldn't read the cheapo digi tach (magnetic pulse pickup basically). The tach records max rpm; told me 10,400 and I cannot believe that at all...

Anyone else find out the top end on the s cams?
In the lower gears, it is possible to exceed safe rpm limits.  At some point, the valve springs will lose control, and the valves could float, which can result in damage.
I don't know how high you went, but if you plan to do more of that, it would be advised to get a better tach with a light.
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Re: s cams
« Reply #143 on: September 07, 2014, 04:03:01 AM »
Quote
In the lower gears, it is possible to exceed safe rpm limits.  At some point, the valve springs will lose control, and the valves could float, which can result in damage.
I don't know how high you went, but if you plan to do more of that, it would be advised to get a better tach with a light.

Thanks Ace, i figured it wasnt good.  I'll stay below 6000 just to make certain... think i need some better valves and springs!
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Re: s cams
« Reply #144 on: September 07, 2014, 08:57:08 AM »
I could get the original testbed machine past 7000 rpm once the 'S' cams were installed, however, I was also using double competition valve springs by then, these having already been fitted in a failed attempt to control the valve bounce experienced at 5800 rpm with the standard cams.
 As a matter of interest, maximum power occurred at 6000 rpm on this machine, but it continued to pull well to 7000 rpm, although those revs made me cringe a bit !! 100 mph was achieved at about 6200 rpm on this machine, which used an 18" rear wheel and one extra tooth on the gearbox sprocket.
 B.W.

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Re: s cams
« Reply #145 on: September 07, 2014, 12:36:26 PM »
The TM32 is pretty much maxxed out at 6200 rpm anyway, so there is not much point in going higher than that. It just stresses the engine more, and doesn't increase power. If you were racing, and had to hold on to a lead by revving higher to the finish line or something, that might be a reason. But for street riding, it's not really necessary.
If you want 7000 rpm, you need a TM34 which is good to nearly 7000 rpm. You could use a 36 for 7200+ rpm, but that's getting into another custom manifold because our alloy manifolds do not fit the 36. And that is getting into short lifespan engine territory, especially with a stock bottom end.
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High On Octane

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Re: s cams
« Reply #146 on: September 07, 2014, 02:35:59 PM »
The TM32 is pretty much maxxed out at 6200 rpm anyway, so there is not much point in going higher than that. It just stresses the engine more, and doesn't increase power. If you were racing, and had to hold on to a lead by revving higher to the finish line or something, that might be a reason. But for street riding, it's not really necessary.
If you want 7000 rpm, you need a TM34 which is good to nearly 7000 rpm. You could use a 36 for 7200+ rpm, but that's getting into another custom manifold because our alloy manifolds do not fit the 36. And that is getting into short lifespan engine territory, especially with a stock bottom end.

Does this info vary for my build being that I am feeding 2 - 350 cylinders?  I believe you said the TM32 should be good for about 6800 RPMs on my build?
Scottie J
Denver, CO

1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer

ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #147 on: September 07, 2014, 02:51:25 PM »
Does this info vary for my build being that I am feeding 2 - 350 cylinders?  I believe you said the TM32 should be good for about 6800 RPMs on my build?
Yes, it's different for your bike. It is based on airflow demand which is much lower for your 350cc cylinders. Your bike has a ceiling of 8250 rpm with one TM32 on each cylinder(in normally aspirated form) before it hits mach-index choke. It may be able to rev higher than that if the cams permit, but the power should peak in the vicinity of 8250 rpm with enough cam to reach that. I don't have enough experience with your cam specs and platform to know if those cams will take you all the way with the increased rocker ratio. Since this is a first ever, it will yield the necessary data in testing. I think it can make it, but we'll have to see.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 03:21:38 AM by ace.cafe »
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Re: s cams
« Reply #148 on: September 08, 2014, 03:03:25 AM »
Thanks all. Went out again today in the daylight. 6000 rpm is indeed when the power tops out. It'll pull till about 6500 in lower gears with no bounce. So I must have been a wee bit higher last night  ::) ::) now I know what to listen for... Sure do like the cams!  Next plan is to get the head to ace at the end of this season.
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dampking

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Re: s cams
« Reply #149 on: September 08, 2014, 10:55:10 AM »
6500 rpm is pretty dam hot! :)

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Re: s cams
« Reply #150 on: September 08, 2014, 01:23:52 PM »
6500 rpm is pretty dam hot! :)

Too hot most likely..."Ride it like you stole it" ..sure is fun tho!  Lol ... Just a disclaimer; I'm using a cheap digital tach that monitors the magnetic pulse to the coil. It's slow to pickup and not very responsive.  It does get me in the ballpark.
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ace.cafe

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Re: s cams
« Reply #151 on: September 08, 2014, 03:34:42 PM »
Thanks all. Went out again today in the daylight. 6000 rpm is indeed when the power tops out. It'll pull till about 6500 in lower gears with no bounce. So I must have been a wee bit higher last night  ::) ::) now I know what to listen for... Sure do like the cams!  Next plan is to get the head to ace at the end of this season.
That's doing really good!
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Re: s cams
« Reply #152 on: September 09, 2014, 12:41:10 AM »
Man im so jealous! i have a tm 32 set up with s cams, but i cant ride....legally! Alas, my 21 year old antics got my license suspended for a couple months!  I never once got to ride with my new fitted s cams, i just get to hear her run at idle in my drive way here and there :(