I'm looking forward to doing some magic on these heads!Thanks,Tom
Cool! Sorry, this is just exciting for me. Scottie
The rockers are going to be a challenge in these heads.Very small area to work with, so this probably leaves out alloy roller rockers, and will likely need steel roller rockers fabricated. Or maybe even non roller, just with some ratio on them.We are contemplating the options.
Sat down and had a nice talk with my engine guy last night. We decided that because we going to be boosting this motor after all, it is really unnecessary to spend almost $2000 on just pistons and rods alone going with custom 1-off CP pistons and Carrillo rods. Maybe on a future NA application/build, but like most garage builders, we need to get the most bang-for-the-buck that we can. So we decided that the forged Omega 8:1 performance pistons and billet rods from Hitchcock's will work just fine for this build. The pistons and rods are still a very robust design, but nearly half the cost of going with custom CP pistons and Carrillo rods. When all said and done, I will essentially have a 750 MK1 Interceptor with all the bells and whistles, plus the turbo charger, with a 90mm stroke as opposed to a 93mm stroke on an actual Interceptor. I also think I may have place that I might be able to Dyno tune the bike (a friend of a friend type deal).Tom - Are we looking at the first of the year before the heads will see the flow bench? No worries, just curious. Scottie
Impressive stuff Scottie !! This is going to be a kick ass bike - All the best !!Why a turbo and not a Supercharger setup ?
Therefor, for a smaller displacement motor, a turbo can build more HP faster. There is no "drag" on the motor with a turbo, and once a turbo spools, your HP is only limited to your tuning capabilities over the motor. This includes a combination of timing, (which is typically more retarded than a N/A motor), fuel mapping, boost controller and blow off valve. Also, another advantage to running a turbo over a blower is that with a turbo, because everything is tunable, I will be able to tune for more HP at lower RPMs and not put such a load/strain on the motor. I personally don't know much about tuning for a turbo, that's where my engine guy/friend comes into play. He's a Turbo Guru and is just as excited to build this bike as I am. What I can tell you is that we are shooting for 110HP at the rear wheel and this bike will be Dyno tuned and then broken in at the Drag Strip.Scottie
So its actually better to have a turbo setup for a low ( stock ) output engine to prevent the power losses to run the blower. I was thinking a supercharger may be better as the exhaust pulses may be intermittent and will result in the turbo taking longer to spool on a long stroke bike like the enfield. However, I am guessing this will not be of issue with a twin cyl Enfield cause of higher exhaust flow ( ??) . Also, is it true that for forced induction engines the porting ( less or minimal porting needed due to higher intake pressure) is done differently that the normal free to air type porting ( ACE ??) D
A twin will run a turbo. A single doesn't really do it well. A four would be better.Regarding the porting, actually for a turbo, the porting is done the same as normally aspirated for the intake. The exhaust might get a little more size than normal. The camming is very different with any type of forced induction. Porting for a supercharged drag racer would be larger in all ways. Supercharging moderately for the street could be ported the same as normally aspirated. Very application dependent things.
What's your professional opinion Tom? For what I'm doing, am I better off with a turbo or a blower? What do you recommend? I guess I was always under the impression that turbos were more efficient at producing bigger numbers. Am I wrong about this?Scottie
Scottie,It's very difficult to make a blanket statement about that. They are both blowers. They do the same thing. They differ in the ways that they are driven. The turbo interferes with the exhaust stream, and the supercharger takes power off the crank. Both cause power drains in different ways, but the increases that they provide outweigh any losses by far. The biggest difference in noticeable behavior to the driver is the response lag that comes from the turbo. The turbo "lags" and the SC is instant response. Turbos are popular with road racers, but drag racers all use superchargers. There are pro's and con's. Size, location, and packaging can play big roles. Ability to fabricate a practical drive system can be an issue. You have to weigh all these things in the balance and decide what's best for the application.
Looks interesting, Scottie. Just one point, though - if you take a drive for the supercharger from the [redundant?] ignition drive, you will be relying on a very light timing chain and an even lighter duplex magneto / distributor drive chain, unless you plan to revamp this area of the motor. Also, any output to the blower will be at half the engine speed. If you can get a drive from the crank somehow, it can be more robust and you will be able to drive the blower at a greater choice of speeds and much faster if you need to. B.W.
The plan is to install a Bob Newby belt drive on this bike. Is it possible to order the belt drive with an additional V pulley off on the crank? I've had trouble trying to contact them, not sure if I have the wrong number or prefix or what. Scottie
This is where you start seeing what I have to go thru trying to get things done.Nobody makes anything we want, and nobody wants to make one-off things, unless they charge an arm and a leg, and takes a year.I have to deal with this all the time.
Ate you not keen on the idea of this blower Tom?
I'm not too worried about mounting the blower, Alex and I are both really good with custom fabrication. And if guys are bolting these blowers to Matchless and AJS bikes it can't be that hard. Also this seems to be the blower of choice for the Salt guys. Is using this blower as opposed to a turbo going to change anything on your end Tom? I don't want to make your job difficult but I do want to build some serious power and I feel that going with a blower we will be able to produce more power at lower RPMs.Scottie
It shouldn't make much difference to the head work.If you have a real lot of boost like a top fuel dragster, then we'd use a bigger exhaust valve. Basically, a good boosted head is a good n/a headYour cam guy is gonna need to know about it, though. I think there should be some movement happening on your heads next week or so at Mondello's.
Any news Tom?
I'll be going there tomorrow to see what's up.Please remember that there's only one guy doing all these heads for us over there.
OK. Just curious and excited. I know you've been busy with other projects.
Sounds Great! I know we discussed making some custom high lift steel rockers that could be adjustable through the top of the head which sounds like it might be the easiest way to go, but you're the professional. Also, I need to double check the rule book to see if that is an acceptable mod or not. I know the base line flow isn't very significant, but I am really curious what they do flow stock. And even more curious as to how much air we can really flow! I sent my heads to you because you seem to be the best in the biz, and you know things that I didn't even know existed. Scottie
News: We now have 38mm, 42mm, 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm, and 65mm throttle bodies to fit different size engines. Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650. For other throttle bodies, you may need to do some mechanical adaptations.Note: for DR650, the motor is running better with a little rich AFR in some cases, like idle, and WOT.
Are you planning a single throttle body to feed both cylinders via a common manifold/plenum? Like a car?
Yes Tom, I plan on shifting between 6000-6500 RPMs. And 125hp at the crank is EXACTLY what I was hoping to achieve.ERC - I do in fact remember you saying that. Scottie
Nice job Scottie this is going to be a real project. Are you still feeling better with the new diet? ERC
129.937 mph is the record I'm trying to break.
Tom - Did you guys end up going with steel or titanium valves? Scottie J
I'm pretty sure that they are stainless steel. I will have to ask him to be sure, but I don't think that they would order titanium valves without asking me first.
BW - Is this the ignition I should be looking into? I never heard back from Debb @ Rex Caunt Racing so I sent another email this morning asking her to contact me this week.Racing 4-stroke, 36deg Crank Twin Battery Systemhttp://www.rexcauntracing.com/pages/misc_products.htmlIt looks like this system has a CDI box with electronic timing advance. That would be freaking sweet if this will work for my bike!Scottie J
http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.htmlThis uses a similar system but pre programs it and provides a complete set of matched components. The best thing about this system is the ability to have multiple maps stored and flick between them with a switch, e.g. launch control with low rpm limiter, the with button push it then changes to normal use. The reason I liked it was that I can have a failsafe map, and use the others for testing and experimenting, I have the programming kit too.This uses power arc as the base system.
I'm not sure I get this C5. Looks like it is exactly the same as PA. The C5 install manual shows PA ignition in the photos. What do they offer that makes them better than PA? Also PA has upgraded with the M series units.
Tom - I can't remember. I know you guys can plasma nitride my crank but I can't remember if you said Mondello's can grind the journals and balance it....... Getting ready to start making some more serious progress with this build.Scottie J
Will early summer work out better? I'm probably going to be sending the conrods out to R&R this week to have custom steel H-Beam rods machined. They guy I spoke with said they have a couple of Honda Civics with similar dimension rods that are holding over 300HP per cylinder, so I won't have anything to worry about in that department. If you're too booked up for the crank I may look for someone local. There's a pretty good racing scene here.Scottie J
Awesome! Very exciting! So they were able to make the rockers a full 1.5:1 ratio? Last we spoke we were talking 1.45:1 ratio. Very excited to hear how they fit and work. Scottie J
We're seeing how much we can fit in.
So, Tom... Have you come up with a name for the Twin treatment?
I have a few ideas for a name."Bonneville" heads, based on the LSR goal for the build."Rock N Roller" heads, based on the roller rocker set-up."Pair of Aces" heads, based on the twin format."Ace/Mondello GP" heads, like we call our single versions of this layout.Anyway, regarding your exhaust system, I did a few calculations, and it looks like you want to have primary pipe lengths of 30" each, measured from the back of the exhaust valve, to the end of the pipe, so you have to add whatever that exhaust port length is to the length of the pipe, and that would be your 30".And the I.D. of the primary header pipes should be 1.5" because you are supercharging, and that needs extra room in the exhaust. That 1.5" figure is based on 150% volumetric efficiency, which is about what I figure that boost will be giving it. For N/A application the 1.375" I.D. would work fine.And some other calcs I did on the intake side show it should support up to 8250 rpm with this port size in N/A format, and should be able to do even more with boost, if more is wanted. That's based on the 3.66" stroke crank from the Interceptor, because I think that's what you'll be using, right? If you use the 3.54" stroke, it will support revs even higher than that.
That's where the custom steel H-beam rods and having the crank plasma nitrided comes into play. Right?!
Don't worry.I expect it will be around the area that we have discussed.And remember, this is something that nobody else has ever had in the history of the Enfield twin world.
The interesting parts of this thread draw ever nearer B.W.
We can't be showing off too much. The crotch rockets won't want to race me!
I trust we will be fitting 3.50 and 3.25 x 19 Avon SM tyres and comfortable, sensible handlebars with rear view mirrors to this machine in that case? B.W.
Alright, sounds great! I'll take care of things on my end and give you a call. This is awesome! Feels great to be a part of history. And Tom. I just looked at the cam stats for the S Meteor and Connie. I'm not sure what I have because my bike seems to be a mix of parts and not true to a standard Trailblazer. But good news is if it has the Connie cams with .344 In and .328 Ex with the new rockers it will be good for .498 and .475. Even if it has the pouchy S Meteor cams at .312 each they will still be good for .453 which is still quite respectable. So glad we decided to go with the custom high ratio rollers. Scottie J
The smaller cams will just make somewhat less power, but may be more tractable for street use. The rockers do give their ratio to whatever cam you use, so you get some nice flexibility with various cam lobe options available.Oh, and BTW, these heads actually ARE maxxed out by an Ace performance tuner!Heh heh !
I for one am following this! I can't wait to see (via Scotty's videos of course!) that beautiful piece of work in action!
With having our own project on the go and nearing completion, with Tom's high ratio rockers and valve gear fitted [Big Head Bullet / Fury racer], I am following this thread with interest, both here and on the 'Ace' site - which is the third one, out of interest? Anyway, I think you will get plenty of folk looking at the conversations about the project taking shape, but the real impact will come once the machine is up and running, with, perhaps some video footage and so on. I reckon you will get much more 'audience participation' once this stage is reached, but I very much doubt these efforts are being ignored at present. I for one will be talking lots about our project and this one, when they are up and running and I bet others will be joining in too B.W.
Just a hypothetical thought for further down the road.......I started thinking about this yesterday. I don't know the clearances off the top of my head so this would take further investigating to actually make possible. BUT, If I were to custom machine a 1 piece cylinder for my twin that would accept 79.75mm pistons and the original 90mm stroke, that would make my bike just cunt hair over 899cc............Thoughts?
Ok. I should be able to reuse the piston rings, shouldn't I?
I just found these. What do you think?http://www.classic-motorcycles.co.uk/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command=ShowProduct&db_pid=4903
In a word, NO.Make custom pistons. There is nothing worth a crap off the shelf.You can get a minimum order of 4 from any piston company, and you have 2 twin cylinder engines. It all adds up just right.
I believe that price was to included some lightening. I should have an actual quote in my email today.
That's an unusually low price. Better look everything over real close. When it seems to good to be true, it usually is.
That was just what I added in my head from what I remember him saying. I know didn't add everything he mentioned so maybe it will be considerably more all said and done.