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Author Topic: ACE Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs SUPERCHARGER '59 Chief Bonneville Build!  (Read 4305 times)

High On Octane

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It's official!  I just sent off the heads for my '59 Chief Bonneville to Tom at Ace Cafe.  Looks like we're going to try and give them the Big Head treatment.  I'm super excited to be having ACE and Mondello's to be taking part in this build.  This bike is truly going to be a one of a kind and setting new mile stones along the way.  Thanks Tom!   :D

Scottie
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 05:51:51 PM by Scottie J »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting Is With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 08:07:49 PM »
I'm looking forward to doing some magic on these heads!
Thanks,
Tom
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting Is With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 08:42:04 PM »
I'm looking forward to doing some magic on these heads!
Thanks,
Tom

Funny you should say that.  As I was packing them up I was singing to myself "They're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of air!"   Lol   I know, I'm a nerd.   ;)

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting Is With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2013, 12:46:29 PM »
This bike here would make a perfect donor bike for my suspension, brakes and wheels needs.  :)

http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/4171589090.html

Or this one
http://denver.craigslist.org/mcy/4125885613.html

Perfect timing!  Everyone is wanting to clean their crap out of their garage and I'm on the prowl!

Scottie
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 12:48:59 PM by Scottie J »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2013, 01:39:04 AM »
The heads arrived at Ace Cafe earlier week.  Tom has high hopes for making BIG changes to the heads and there are talks of custom roller rockers.  :)

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 03:07:13 PM »
Eagerly awaiting for a call from Tom with the initial flow bench results.    :D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 04:05:05 PM »
The heads are at Mondello's.
It all depends on how soon he gets them on the flow bench.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 04:11:41 PM »
Cool!  Sorry, this is just exciting for me.   ;D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 07:31:08 PM »
Cool!  Sorry, this is just exciting for me.   ;D

Scottie
The rockers are going to be a challenge in these heads.
Very small area to work with, so this probably leaves out alloy roller rockers, and will likely need steel roller rockers fabricated. Or maybe even non roller, just with some ratio on them.
We are contemplating the options.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 08:20:14 PM »
The rockers are going to be a challenge in these heads.
Very small area to work with, so this probably leaves out alloy roller rockers, and will likely need steel roller rockers fabricated. Or maybe even non roller, just with some ratio on them.
We are contemplating the options.

I was anticipating that being a problem.  Thanks for the heads up.

I joined the landracing.com forum today.  It looks like the speed to beat is 197 mph.  After I break that record I need to build something pre '57, the record there is only 121 mph.  ; D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs' Bonneville Build!
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 05:36:26 PM »
I've been doing some research and getting a lot of help from the landracing.com forum.  Turns out the Chief is considered a classic not a vintage bike.  I'm still looking into it but I might end up boosting this motor after all.  Coolest part is, that if I can in fact build my bike the way I want it doesn't look like anyone has ever run in the particular class I intend on.  This means if I have a successful legal build I will be the first person to run in that class and I will be setting the record for the first time ever.  Exciting times I tell you.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 04:27:13 AM »
IT'S OFFICIAL!!!

I finally got in contact with the right people and it's a for sure thing now.  The '59 Chief is going to be getting custom EFI and and a Garrett G1241 turbo charger!  I also found out that the current record for MPS-PBF (Modified Partially Streamlined - Pushrod Blown Fuel) is 158mph.  I should be able to DECIMATE that!  And just for a little teaser, I found a more appropriate full fairing setup specially designed for LSR.



It will be painted candy gold with black and red graphics.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ERC

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 02:17:18 PM »
Very neat Scottie.  ERC
2-57 Apaches, 2-57 Trailblazers, 60 Chief, 65 Interceptor, 2004 Bullet, 612 Bullet chopped.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 01:00:47 PM »
Sat down and had a nice talk with my engine guy last night.  We decided that because we going to be boosting this motor after all, it is really unnecessary to spend almost $2000 on just pistons and rods alone going with custom 1-off CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  Maybe on a future NA application/build, but like most garage builders, we need to get the most bang-for-the-buck that we can.  So we decided that the forged Omega 8:1 performance pistons and billet rods from Hitchcock's will work just fine for this build.  The pistons and rods are still a very robust design, but nearly half the cost of going with custom CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  When all said and done, I will essentially have a 750 MK1 Interceptor with all the bells and whistles, plus the turbo charger, with a 90mm stroke as opposed to a 93mm stroke on an actual Interceptor.  I also think I may have place that I might be able to Dyno tune the bike (a friend of a friend type deal).

Tom - Are we looking at the first of the year before the heads will see the flow bench?  No worries, just curious.   :)

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 01:08:55 PM »
And just to refresh everyone's memory here is the EFI kit and Garrett turbo that are going to be used for this build.  I also am posting pics of the pistons and rods.











Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 08:59:54 PM »
Sat down and had a nice talk with my engine guy last night.  We decided that because we going to be boosting this motor after all, it is really unnecessary to spend almost $2000 on just pistons and rods alone going with custom 1-off CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  Maybe on a future NA application/build, but like most garage builders, we need to get the most bang-for-the-buck that we can.  So we decided that the forged Omega 8:1 performance pistons and billet rods from Hitchcock's will work just fine for this build.  The pistons and rods are still a very robust design, but nearly half the cost of going with custom CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  When all said and done, I will essentially have a 750 MK1 Interceptor with all the bells and whistles, plus the turbo charger, with a 90mm stroke as opposed to a 93mm stroke on an actual Interceptor.  I also think I may have place that I might be able to Dyno tune the bike (a friend of a friend type deal).

Tom - Are we looking at the first of the year before the heads will see the flow bench?  No worries, just curious.   :)

Scottie
No, it has been on the flow bench, but I don't have a print-out, and the guys from Mondello's are gone until Monday night at a trade show.
I don't have the figures, but they are written on a legal pad on the desk at Mondello's. I saw them written on there.

Valve size is already near max.

We're working on figuring out how to attack the rocker issue.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 09:07:18 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:41:51 PM »
Cool!  Thanks for the update Tom.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 02:24:46 AM »
Scottie i love your Trailblazer.
one of my old motorcycle magazines has a triumph twin with a chevrolet corvair car turbo mounted.  it was just a simple write up with no performance figures.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2013, 05:48:56 AM »
Impressive stuff Scottie !! This is going to be a kick ass bike - All the best !!

Why a turbo and not a Supercharger setup ?

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »
Impressive stuff Scottie !! This is going to be a kick ass bike - All the best !!

Why a turbo and not a Supercharger setup ?

Turbos and blowers have their pros and cons.  The reason why I am going with a turbo is because ultimately you have more power control with a turbo than with a blower.  Blowers will typically build more HP than a turbo, and depending on the application, can make a big power house out of a motor.  The disadvantage of running a blower is that because they are gear/pulley driven off of the motor itself, it takes MORE HP to produce bigger HP.  Meaning, it takes more energy in order to turn the added drag of the blower being bolted to the motor, thus you need some respectable N/A HP to make some monster numbers with the blower.  Because of this, smaller motors that don't have a whole lot of N/A HP to begin with will usually suffer slightly from running a blower because by the time the blower spools up and really starts crunching air, you are usually running out of RPMs.

On the flip side, turbos need to spool up as well, but because they are powered from the exhaust pipe, the power band is basically only limited by the valve train and timing keeping up with the RPMs of the motor.  Therefor, for a smaller displacement motor, a turbo can build more HP faster.  There is no "drag" on the motor with a turbo, and once a turbo spools, your HP is only limited to your tuning capabilities over the motor.  This includes a combination of timing, (which is typically more retarded than a N/A motor), fuel mapping, boost controller and blow off valve.  Also, another advantage to running a turbo over a blower is that with a turbo, because  everything is tunable, I will be able to tune for more HP at lower RPMs and not put such a load/strain on the motor.   I personally don't know much about tuning for a turbo, that's where my engine guy/friend comes into play.  He's a Turbo Guru and is just as excited to build this bike as I am.  What I can tell you is that we are shooting for 110HP at the rear wheel and this bike will be Dyno tuned and then broken in at the Drag Strip.

Scottie
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:56:52 PM by Scottie J »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2013, 07:32:39 PM »
 a ton of information . i did a quick review and i will be surprised if you don't find some usable idea. http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#news
best of luck with your build. ps look at the 741 indian salt build http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html .

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2013, 08:25:29 PM »
Those Elsburg blowers look nice but they are way too small for my needs.  Plus I don't like the fact that when you install a blower on a bike you are very limited as to where you can mount it and drive it.

Do you know what that Indian 741 ended up running?  There was like 64 pages on that thread.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2013, 08:26:41 PM »
My step son totally loves me.  He got me The World's Fastest Indian for Christmas.   I will be watching that many more times.   :D
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2013, 09:48:51 PM »
If I were going to use a supercharger on one of these things for racing, I'd size the supercharger to a larger capacity, and drive it at half speed off the distributor/magneto drive shaft, and move the ignition to a crank trigger system in the primary, and go total-loss electrical system with a small li-ion battery.
This puts the SC right at the intake port area where you want it, the drive for it is already right there, it gets the ignition triggered off the crank to eliminate timing shifts from gear/chain lash in the distributor drive chain, and eliminates the dynamo entirely because it's not necessary for racing and we don't need to use up hp driving it, and it uses a lightweight and hi-capacity battery of li-ion to bring the electrics without drive losses or any unnecessary weight.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2013, 03:25:03 AM »
I noticed somewhere on that page about using a Subaru turbo on a motorcycle.  I have all kinds of those laying around work!

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2013, 02:21:08 PM »
Finally got my rule book the other day before Christmas.  After having a look at the rules and records I've decided that I am initially going to build this bike naked without a fairing.  The current record for M-PBF is only 129.953 by a BMW, and this record was set many years ago.  I'm pretty confident that I can make that record my little bitch and put RE on the Bonneville record maps for sure.  :D  I'd still like to hit close to 150mph, but even if I only hit 140mph, I'll still crush the current standing record for this class.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2013, 07:57:48 AM »
  Therefor, for a smaller displacement motor, a turbo can build more HP faster.  There is no "drag" on the motor with a turbo, and once a turbo spools, your HP is only limited to your tuning capabilities over the motor.  This includes a combination of timing, (which is typically more retarded than a N/A motor), fuel mapping, boost controller and blow off valve.  Also, another advantage to running a turbo over a blower is that with a turbo, because  everything is tunable, I will be able to tune for more HP at lower RPMs and not put such a load/strain on the motor.   I personally don't know much about tuning for a turbo, that's where my engine guy/friend comes into play.  He's a Turbo Guru and is just as excited to build this bike as I am.  What I can tell you is that we are shooting for 110HP at the rear wheel and this bike will be Dyno tuned and then broken in at the Drag Strip.

Scottie

So its actually better to have a turbo setup for a low ( stock ) output engine to prevent the power losses to run the blower. I was thinking a supercharger may be better as the exhaust pulses may be intermittent and will result in the turbo taking longer to spool on a long stroke bike like the enfield. However, I am guessing this will not be of issue with a twin cyl Enfield cause of higher exhaust flow ( ??) .

Also, is it true that for forced induction engines the porting ( less or minimal porting needed due to higher intake pressure)  is done differently that the normal free to air type porting ( ACE ??)  :-\

D

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2013, 12:09:08 PM »
So its actually better to have a turbo setup for a low ( stock ) output engine to prevent the power losses to run the blower. I was thinking a supercharger may be better as the exhaust pulses may be intermittent and will result in the turbo taking longer to spool on a long stroke bike like the enfield. However, I am guessing this will not be of issue with a twin cyl Enfield cause of higher exhaust flow ( ??) .

Also, is it true that for forced induction engines the porting ( less or minimal porting needed due to higher intake pressure)  is done differently that the normal free to air type porting ( ACE ??)  :-\

D

A twin will run a turbo. A single doesn't really do it well. A four would be better.

Regarding the porting, actually for a turbo, the porting is done the same as normally aspirated for the intake. The exhaust might get a little more size than normal. The camming is very different with any type of forced induction. Porting for a supercharged drag racer would be larger in all ways. Supercharging moderately for the street could be ported the same as normally aspirated. Very application dependent things.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AcePerformanceBullets/

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2013, 12:38:00 PM »
A twin will run a turbo. A single doesn't really do it well. A four would be better.

Regarding the porting, actually for a turbo, the porting is done the same as normally aspirated for the intake. The exhaust might get a little more size than normal. The camming is very different with any type of forced induction. Porting for a supercharged drag racer would be larger in all ways. Supercharging moderately for the street could be ported the same as normally aspirated. Very application dependent things.

What's your professional opinion Tom?  For what I'm doing, am I better off with a turbo or a blower?  What do you recommend?  I guess I was always under the impression that turbos were more efficient at producing bigger numbers.  Am I wrong about this?

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 01:23:45 PM »
Found another Turbo on Fleabay that looks promising.  Says it capable of producing 14psi of boost.  :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300967839466&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2013, 02:26:45 PM »
What's your professional opinion Tom?  For what I'm doing, am I better off with a turbo or a blower?  What do you recommend?  I guess I was always under the impression that turbos were more efficient at producing bigger numbers.  Am I wrong about this?

Scottie

Scottie,
It's very difficult to make a blanket statement about that. They are both blowers. They do the same thing. They differ in the ways that they are driven. The turbo interferes with the exhaust stream, and the supercharger takes power off the crank. Both cause power drains in different ways, but the increases that they provide outweigh any losses by far. The biggest difference in noticeable behavior to the driver is the response lag that comes from the turbo. The turbo "lags" and the SC is instant response. Turbos are popular with road racers, but drag racers all use superchargers. There are pro's and con's.  Size, location, and packaging can play big roles. Ability to fabricate a practical drive system can be an issue. You have to weigh all these things in the balance and decide what's best for the application.
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2013, 03:00:33 PM »
Scottie,
It's very difficult to make a blanket statement about that. They are both blowers. They do the same thing. They differ in the ways that they are driven. The turbo interferes with the exhaust stream, and the supercharger takes power off the crank. Both cause power drains in different ways, but the increases that they provide outweigh any losses by far. The biggest difference in noticeable behavior to the driver is the response lag that comes from the turbo. The turbo "lags" and the SC is instant response. Turbos are popular with road racers, but drag racers all use superchargers. There are pro's and con's.  Size, location, and packaging can play big roles. Ability to fabricate a practical drive system can be an issue. You have to weigh all these things in the balance and decide what's best for the application.

+1 

My experience with boosted applications isn't with motorcycles but some of the principles are the same.  That instant-on power with the SC needs to have a really strong clutch to handle the launch.  Depending on how much you stage the spool on the turbo, the launch is a little less harsh.  Just some things to consider VS naturally aspirated in drag racing applications...
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2013, 06:57:35 PM »
When I worked as a marine engineer on tugs a few years back, we had one tug engine room equipped with a couple of Detroit Diesel 6-71 auxiliaries, driving the generators. These were 2 stroke, 6 cylinder diesels with large superchargers which were themselves fed by turbochargers driven by the exhaust gases. We also had some larger V12 units driving fire pumps, bow thrusters and winches, these had two turbos feeding a single central blower, like in this video. Our main engines were very much larger, though!
 Edit - my point here is this - perhaps you could use a blower AND a turbo together in this way to good effect on your project, Scottie? Just a thought.
 B.W.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z3WFSSHLXQ
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 12:03:42 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2014, 02:18:29 AM »
Looky at what I found (thanks to suggestions on the landracing forum)!

Aisin AMR500 Supercharger



http://www.kemotorsport.com/

Lots of guys have bolted these to bikes.  It actually appears that it the supercharger that the custom supercharged 700cc thumper that you see pics of here on the forum.  It produces 500cfm of boost per revolution.  My plan is to fire the ignition off of the crank and remove the distributor/magneto and have a custom shaft machined up that will replace distributor that I can mount an array of different pulleys that will drive the blower.  The best part is that all I have to do is interchange the pulleys to change the amount of boost I want to build!  :D

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2014, 09:14:11 AM »
Looks interesting, Scottie. Just one point, though - if you take a drive for the supercharger from the [redundant?] ignition drive, you will be relying on a very light timing chain and an even lighter duplex magneto / distributor drive chain, unless you plan to revamp this area of the motor. Also, any output to the blower will be at half the engine speed.
 If you can get a drive from the crank somehow, it can be more robust and you will be able to drive the blower at a greater choice of speeds and much faster if you need to.
 B.W.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2014, 12:48:33 PM »
Looks interesting, Scottie. Just one point, though - if you take a drive for the supercharger from the [redundant?] ignition drive, you will be relying on a very light timing chain and an even lighter duplex magneto / distributor drive chain, unless you plan to revamp this area of the motor. Also, any output to the blower will be at half the engine speed.
 If you can get a drive from the crank somehow, it can be more robust and you will be able to drive the blower at a greater choice of speeds and much faster if you need to.
 B.W.

The supercharger is belt driven, I can't foresee the timing chain breaking before a rubber V-belt.  And I was under the impression that the magneto is half speed, but the drive itself operates at the same speed of the the rest of the timing chest.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  ???

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 12:56:05 PM »
The drive for the magneto etc is taken from the inlet cam, which obviously runs at half engine speed, the only 'engine speed' bit is the timing sprocket on the end of the crank. Belt drive is a good plan.
 Another place to possibly pick up a drive, should you need even more speed for the blower, might be from the clutch drum sprocket [or pulley], as I assume you will not be using a standard R.E. type clutch in there  ;)
 B.W.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 02:03:42 PM »
The plan is to install a Bob Newby belt drive on this bike.  Is it possible to order the belt drive with an additional V pulley off on the crank?  I've had trouble trying to contact them, not sure if I have the wrong number or prefix or what.   ???

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 02:24:35 PM »
The plan is to install a Bob Newby belt drive on this bike.  Is it possible to order the belt drive with an additional V pulley off on the crank?  I've had trouble trying to contact them, not sure if I have the wrong number or prefix or what.   ???

Scottie

This is where you start seeing what I have to go thru trying to get things done.
Nobody makes anything we want, and nobody wants to make one-off things, unless they charge an arm and a leg, and takes a year.
I have to deal with this all the time.
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 02:29:01 PM »
This is where you start seeing what I have to go thru trying to get things done.
Nobody makes anything we want, and nobody wants to make one-off things, unless they charge an arm and a leg, and takes a year.
I have to deal with this all the time.

Ate you not keen on the idea of this blower Tom?
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2014, 02:35:14 PM »
Ate you not keen on the idea of this blower Tom?

I have no problem with the blower. I think that a smaller version of the one that they used on the Roehr 1250 is a neater little package, but costs a lot more.

Personally, I avoid doing blowers. It's a big can of worms. I like N/A.
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 04:41:26 PM »
I'm not too worried about mounting the blower, Alex and I are both really good with custom fabrication.  And if guys are bolting these blowers to Matchless and AJS bikes it can't be that hard.  Also this seems to be the blower of choice for the Salt guys.  Is using this blower as opposed to a turbo going to change anything on your end Tom?  I don't want to make your job difficult  but I do want to build some serious power and I feel that going with a blower we will be able to produce more power at lower RPMs.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2014, 05:31:57 PM »
I'm not too worried about mounting the blower, Alex and I are both really good with custom fabrication.  And if guys are bolting these blowers to Matchless and AJS bikes it can't be that hard.  Also this seems to be the blower of choice for the Salt guys.  Is using this blower as opposed to a turbo going to change anything on your end Tom?  I don't want to make your job difficult  but I do want to build some serious power and I feel that going with a blower we will be able to produce more power at lower RPMs.

Scottie
It shouldn't make much difference to the head work.
If you have a real lot of boost like a top fuel dragster, then we'd use a bigger exhaust valve.  Basically, a good boosted head is a good n/a head

Your cam guy is gonna need to know about it, though. I think there should be some movement happening on your heads next week or so at Mondello's.
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2014, 06:06:14 PM »
It shouldn't make much difference to the head work.
If you have a real lot of boost like a top fuel dragster, then we'd use a bigger exhaust valve.  Basically, a good boosted head is a good n/a head

Your cam guy is gonna need to know about it, though. I think there should be some movement happening on your heads next week or so at Mondello's.

That's what I figured but I just wanted to make sure.  I know you mentioned we are already at about max valve size so just go ahead and work your magic and do whatever you cab to make those babies breath.   :)  As far as cams I think I'm just going to use those Interceptor R cams we talked about on the phone.  I can give you the lobe profiles again if you need.

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Any news Tom?  ???
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Any news Tom?  ???

I'll be going there tomorrow to see what's up.
Please remember that there's only one guy doing all these heads for us over there.
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I'll be going there tomorrow to see what's up.
Please remember that there's only one guy doing all these heads for us over there.


OK.  Just curious and excited.  :)  I know you've been busy with other projects.
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OK.  Just curious and excited.  :)  I know you've been busy with other projects.

Just to make you feel a little better, we know where we want to go with it.
We have to figure out how we're going to increase the lift before we can really even get into the porting. The porting has to be set to work with whatever lift we can get.
So, that's going to take a while, because that is the most unusual part of the job and is different than all the other heads we normally do. The porting will not take very long after the lift modification is done.
The "before" flow test is only for a reference, and it won't really be important in the overall scheme of things, except to show a nice big fat increase over the dead-stock heads. 8)
It's the "after" flow test that holds all the marbles. ;)


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Sounds Great!  I know we discussed making some custom high lift steel rockers that could be adjustable through the top of the head which sounds like it might be the easiest way to go, but you're the professional.  ;)   Also, I need to double check the rule book to see if that is an acceptable mod or not.  I know the base line flow isn't very significant, but I am really curious what they do flow stock.  And even more curious as to how much air we can really flow!  I sent my heads to you because you seem to be the best in the biz, and you know things that I didn't even know existed.  ;D

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Sounds Great!  I know we discussed making some custom high lift steel rockers that could be adjustable through the top of the head which sounds like it might be the easiest way to go, but you're the professional.  ;)   Also, I need to double check the rule book to see if that is an acceptable mod or not.  I know the base line flow isn't very significant, but I am really curious what they do flow stock.  And even more curious as to how much air we can really flow!  I sent my heads to you because you seem to be the best in the biz, and you know things that I didn't even know existed.  ;D

Scottie

That isn't going to be an easy way to go, but it might be the only way we can go.
We have some ideas about how to approach it.
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If this helps any, I remember when I rebuilt a Meteor 700 engine, being supplied Super Meteor valves by mistake, but sticking with them and making them fit. The crucial difference [from memory] was the S.M. guides protruded up into the rocker box less than the Meteor type and the collet location on the stems was higher up, these features to go with the alloy valve spring caps and tighter wound springs of the S.M.
 Play 'mix and match' with some of these components [or their dimensions] and you might gain a bit more room for valve travel before bottoming out - the opposite of what I ended up with, by having Meteor valve guides and S.M. / 'Connie' valves. I got away with it because the Meteor cams are very soft, but that engine would not accept 'Connie' camshafts unless the valve guides were changed.
 In short, if you were to use  S.M. valve guides with S.M. valves, you will have more scope for valve movement.
 That said, I am sure Ace will be using something superior to the stock factory items  ;)
 Also, I am not sure that the twins are handicapped for cam lobe heights in the same way as the 'Bullet' engines are, you may have many more options open to you in this department than with a single.
 B.W.

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It's making the steel rockers that is going to be the hard part. We'll order custom valves to whatever length needed.
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B.W. - I believe what you're saying about the differences in valves between the M. and S.M.  But from what I researched, when they did the production change in '56, they did away with the Meteor and made only the S.M. and all the valves and heads are identical between the S.M. and  Constellation, and even the early Interceptors based off of the 700cc platform.  I have spoke with Richard at Hitchcock's over some early morning conversations a few different times.  Speaking with him (he seems to be the most knowledgeable person on the Twins there) and Tom (Ace) here's what I have decided:

First, in order to get anything significant out of these heads they will need some major work and custom parts.  I'm leaving all that to Ace and Mondello's as I feel my lack of knowledge in this department won't be much help beyond saying "Yes.  That sounds good." or "No. I don't have Bill Gates money."

Second, there apparently ARE clearance issues with fitting bigger cams lobes into the twin engine cases.  Upon further investigation, it turns out that the Interceptor Series I  "R" Cams have almost the same identical lobe profiles as Ace's 357 Magnum Cams.  So we are going to try those out first, see how the motor goes together and run it for a season.  If it feels like we're still not getting enough, then I will consider sending out my cams to have them reprofiled for the next race season.

And Third, using either the Aisin AMR300 or AMR500 supercharger is going to be the most efficient cost effective way to build the kind of boost I want.  After chatting with many different racers on the land speed racing forum, there was a real concern as to whether the modular cast crank will be able to hold up past 8,000 RPMs.  There's a lot of controversy over this, so I'm going with the advice of other racers and am going to keep the redline RPMs closer to 7,000 RPMs as I don't want to burn up my brand new motor in one session of racing.  If I use a turbo, I'll only be actually building boost for about 2,500 RPMs at this redline and there would be a lot of wasted power.  By going with the supercharger, I'll be able to build boost right off of idle and continue building boost all the way through the entire RPM range.  This means  much more power down low and eliminates the need for HAVING to redline at 8,000 RPMs+.

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I will discuss this crankshaft situation today with Mondello's and see what they say about nodular iron and rpms.
They have a cryo tank there,  which is usually a good treatment for cranks. They might have some recommendations.
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Ok thanks Tom.  If they do crank balancing there I'm totally ok with sending my crank to you guys as well.  Just let me know if I need to ship it to you.

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Worked out a crank strengthening strategy with Mondello's today, and proposed it to Scottie on the phone, and it looks like it will be a go.
Using the nodular iron crank treatment that is required for all engines that race in NASCAR.
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Yes!  The plasma nitriding is a definite go!  I was talking to Alex (my turbo guy) after I spoke with you and he was saying that all the newer STi cranks have plasma nitriding as well.  Let me know when we get those baseline flow results back.  Man am I excited!   :D

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Tom, I just sent an email to Bob Newby in regards to the belt drive, a custom crank pulley and what ignition he recommends.

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I have an exciting bit of news!  As most of you know I've been on the hunt for a donor bike for a rear swing arm, mono shock suspension, disc brake and wheel set up for the Chief.  Tomorrow night I'm going to pick up my old Suzuki GS550ESD to use for the donor bike.  Not only is this cool because it was the first bike I owned when I moved to Denver, but he's giving to me got nothing because it ruined in the floods we had this fall!  I felt bad for just taking it from him so I'm going to pick him a 6 pack of a good micro brew add a token of my appreciation.  This is great because now I can get started the chassis while Ace figures out the tricky part of getting some custom rockers made.  Hopefully will be ordering the pistons, rods and cylinder in the next month or so.

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Tom, when you have a moment, can you please review this information on the EFI kit and see if you can come to a conclusion on what size TB will work best for me?  I'm thinking that either the 50mm or 55mm will work best.

The following sizes are available to choose from:
Quote
News: We now have 38mm, 42mm, 45mm, 50mm, 55mm, 60mm, and 65mm throttle bodies to fit different size engines. Note, only 42mm throttle body has been customzied for certain bikes like Suzuki DR650. For other throttle bodies, you may need to do some mechanical adaptations.
Note: for DR650, the motor is running better with a little rich AFR in some cases, like idle, and WOT.

Here's the link to the page
http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

Thanks!
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Are you planning a single throttle body to feed both cylinders via a common manifold/plenum? Like a car?
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Are you planning a single throttle body to feed both cylinders via a common manifold/plenum? Like a car?

Yes sir.  The TB mounts to the intake port of the blower and then will have a manifold/plenum that runs from the blower output directly to the heads.  Alex and I will be fabricating the manifolds needed.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Just a quick thought about this is that the 45mm is just enough to feed both cylinders at once.
With a blower on it, you can make it bigger and not suffer
However, the cylinders feed on different strokes, so technically you would never have to feed them both at the same time. So the size could technically be smaller.
As long as you have enough plenum volume, and boost, that should feed plenty. If you feel more comfortable with bigger, then it shouldn't hurt anything when there is boost coming in from the blower.
Even though we don't have flow numbers yet, that size port is likely to flow near what the Fireball flows. So probably a little less than 200 cfm per intake.
Maybe 50% more than that for boost, so seat of the pants figure 300 cfm for each intake, so max blower output of 600 cfm. Theoretical 150 hp potential at those figures, if it could be attained and hold together. Not sure it would. But it might. It' s not having to run for very long.

The 50mm could theoretically flow 444 cfm normally aspirated and uncompressed.   That's more than double what each port would flow normally aspirated. Compressed would flow more.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 08:33:34 PM by ace.cafe »
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Here she is!  Quite literally, the Chiefs significant other half.  ;D  And I'm sooooo freaking happy!  Shortly before I got rid of this bike, I had got caught in a terrible hail storm that had left about 2 dozen bruises on my body and a DESTROYED instrument cluster.  I needed a speedo and so I ended up buying this Koso DB-01R Multi-Function Electronic Speedometer.


http://www.bikebandit.com/koso-db-01r-multi-function-electronic-speedometer

I liked it because it was a compact all-in-one-unit and was under $200.  It's designed for off-road use and is labeled as "waterproof" but never really thought about it.  Well, I completely forgot that I even bought that thing until I was on my way to pick up the bike.  When I got there, my buddy was telling me how when it had flooded the water was so deep that all he could see was the corner of the mirror sticking out of the water.  I started thinking "Man.  Maybe the swingarm and wheels are the ONLY good thing left on this bike."  No matter, I loaded up the bike and brought it home.  Out of curiosity, I threw the battery on the charger for about a half hour just to see what would happen and that son of a bitch turned right on!  Guess who will be getting a letter of praise for their product?  :)  I now have a digital speedometer for the Chief that will read up to 224mph!

Here a short video of the bike after I unloaded it.  It's a mess, glad I'm not actually rebuilding it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-TaJ5JV2A&feature=youtu.be

And this is how far I got with the bike last night


You know what?  I officially own 3 bikes right now.  :D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Hey Tom!  Check this out!  A guy on the landspeed forum put this Excel spreadsheet together for me.  It looks very useful!



Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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If I remember correctly I posted that you'd have more bikes than me your getting there. I may have to get moving to keep ahead of you.  :-\  ERC
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That's a helpful chart.
I would guess about 125 hp at 6000 rpm.
Are you aiming for 6000 rpm?

This would put port flow at about 236 cfm per cylinder including boost, which seems like it could be do-able.
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Yes Tom, I plan on shifting between 6000-6500 RPMs.  And 125hp at the crank is EXACTLY what I was hoping to achieve.

ERC - I do in fact remember you saying that.   :)

Scottie
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Yes Tom, I plan on shifting between 6000-6500 RPMs.  And 125hp at the crank is EXACTLY what I was hoping to achieve.

ERC - I do in fact remember you saying that.   :)

Scottie

Okay, well that's about triple the stock hp figure, so I think that will be realistic to achieve with a build like this.
And it probably will hold up in the application.
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We have the baseline flow chart for the 700 twin.
Since the ports and valves appeared unmodified, this is probably a generally representative flow chart for the RE twins of that era.
Testing was done at 28" H2O on Mondello's Superflow Flow Bench.

Lift        Intake cfm   Exhaust cfm
.050"       19.7             20.5
.100"       44.8             40.4
.150"       71.0             61.3
.200"       94.2             77.4
.250"      109.2            90.0
.300"      118.0            98.4
.350"      126.6           107.5
.400"      130.9           112.0

The max lift we tested of .400" was as far up as the stock valve gear would allow, before the retainer was banging against the valve guide, so no higher lift testing was possible with unmodified valve gear.

In the plan for this head is to establish a new max lift height via custom valve train parts. While the flow numbers appear small, remember that this is a pair of 350cc cylinders, and the ports and valves are smaller too, to suit the normal application of this engine on the street in 1958. It is a bit behind the standard Bullet with the 500 cc engine, but not too far back. It might not be able to come up to Fireball flow standards, due to the fact that it has 2 smaller cylinders and smaller everything for each intake, but it should do quite well after modding, and the supercharger will have to do the rest.

Enjoy the info!
Not many places to find this kind of info on these old engines.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 07:26:05 PM by ace.cafe »
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Awesome!  Thanks so much Tom!  I had a great conversation with you today.  It definitely seems like we're on the same page and you have enlightened me with new found information.  :D  I have really high hopes for this build.  I truly believe that with yours and Mondello's work combined with the supercharger we should be able to break 100hp at the crank which is UNHEARD OF for these motors.  But I think we're on the right track.  ;)

Scottie
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 03:10:21 PM by Scottie J »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I finished stripping down the GS550 yesterday.  The frame is now bare except for the motor which is only being held in buy 4 bolts, just need an extra set of hands to yank it out.  Looks like the swingarm and wheel should switch right over to the Chief with minimum modifications.  I haven't been able to compare the 2 side by side yet, but it looks like the width of the swingarms where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame are about the same width too.  I'm pretty sure I can get it bolted right up with maybe a couple of bushings for the pivot point.  I'll just need to weld in an upper shock mount to mount the mono shock in the center of the seat area.  The best part of using this swingarm is that aside from the mounts being close to the same sizes, the GS swingarm is exactly 5" longer than the RE swingarm.  This is great because, because to stay within the SCTA rules, I'm allowed to stretch the bike a TOTAL of 10% more than the original factory axle to axle specs.  This gives me a MAX of a 6" stretch on the bike.  The GS swingarm being 5" longer than factory should get me long enough to help stabilize for high speeds, but without breaking the rules.  Or further more, not being so close to within the rules that the officials may question the legality of my build.

It will take a little more work to get some custom rear sets mounted nice and far back.  They will be mounted up about 6.5-7" ahead of the rear wheel axle (again, rules state that the foot mounts must be AT LEAST 6" in front of the rear axle), which will move them back about 14" from the original foot peg location.  I will also be mounting clip-on bars that will be mounted as far down on top of the lower triple tree as possible.  This combination should allow my 6' tall body to lay out nice and flat on the bike with a real tight body tuck.  This is important as I've decided to break my first few records without a fairing, so body positioning is going to be crucial for trying to cut through that salty air.  :)







Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Sounds like you got pretty lucky with that swing arm match!
That's good!
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Nice job Scottie this is going to be a real project. Are you still feeling better with the new diet?  ERC
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Nice job Scottie this is going to be a real project. Are you still feeling better with the new diet?  ERC

Oh God yes!  Thanks!  I still have a crappy day now and then, but I no longer spend every moment of everyday feeling like I'm going to throw up.  My stomach is still healing up and not 100% but I feel so much better now.

And yes!  I think I got lucky with that swingarm.  I'm just happy to be able to have a rear disc brake, aluminum wheel and a mono shock with a preload damper.  I'm about to go out to the garage and look a little more closely.  I'm going to take some more measurements and see how close the mounting area is going to be the same.  :)

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I can't believe it!  Seriously!     ;D     So I went back out and played in the garage for a little bit this afternoon to take some measurements of the swingarm.  The factory RE swingarm is exactly 8 1/2" wide where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame.  The Suzuki swingarm?  8 19/32"!!!!  Not even an 1/8" wider than what is already there, practically a PERFECT fit!  Also, not going to get the 5" stretch that I thought I was going to.  It's just shy of a 4" stretch from axle to axle.  Not quite as long as I was hoping, but 4" is better than what was there.  The large bracket on the bottom of the swingarm is going to get removed.  The set up had this super goofy triple hinge shock mount thing going on.  Complicated and unnecessary weight, so I'll be mounting the shock to the bracket on TOP of the swingarm and the top of the shock will be mounted under the seat.









Scottie
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 09:24:04 PM by Scottie J »
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I sat down this morning and was played some gearing calculators.  Basically, with 100hp at the block and a 3.14 final drive ratio I should be able to achieve 140mph at 6000 RPMs, and 160mph if I attempt to hit 7000 RPMs.  Here are the different charts:

Factory OEM Gearing For The Chief


21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6000 RPMs



21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6500 RPMs


21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 7000 RPMs


Stock Gear Ratios


Needed Gear Ratios


Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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What speed do you need to hit?

You always have to set up for speeds higher than you need to hit, because at Bonneville there is always tire slippage and stuff which makes you run slower there. Make the bike run 10mph faster than you need it to, in your road tests, because you'll lose speed on the salt.
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129.937 mph is the record I'm trying to break.
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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129.937 mph is the record I'm trying to break.

I would try to get the bike to do over 140mph on the pavement, in the test runs.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Scottie,
Here is a pic of the current ECTA Speed Record Holder in the 650 twin class.
It's carbed(Mikuni flatslides), and does somewhere over 120mph.
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Cool!  Thanks for sharing that.  :)
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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 believe this is going to be the final stance of the bike.  Waiting on feedback from landracing.com members before I start welding things up.




Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I have the rear suspension mocked up now.  I welded 2 gussets on the bottom of the frame for the upper shock mount, 1 that will slam the bike and one for a more typical stance.  This pic is me sitting on the frame with the standard stance.



Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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Looking good.
Just be sure you have enough ground clearance with the fairing on, because there are ruts in the salt at Bonneville which make the bodywork si closer down to the ground.
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Your custom valves came in today at Mondello's.  He said he'd be starting on getting the valve gear installed late next week.
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Awesome!   ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Tom -  Did you guys end up going with steel or titanium valves? 

Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Tom -  Did you guys end up going with steel or titanium valves? 

Scottie J
I'm pretty sure that they are stainless steel. I will have to ask him to be sure, but I don't think that they would order titanium valves without asking me first.
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I'm pretty sure that they are stainless steel. I will have to ask him to be sure, but I don't think that they would order titanium valves without asking me first.

OK.  I remember talking about it a couple months ago and I THOUGHT that we had come to the conclusion that we'd be better off using SS valves instead of titanium because of valve seat durability.....  ???  Sorry, my brain has been a bit mushy between work, you building the heads and me trying to read, read, read and read some more on building the chassis and blower for this bike.  I really haven't given my brain much rest lately.  I've been eating, breathing and sleeping this bike build.    :o

Thanks for keeping me up to date Tom!  It is much appreciated!   :D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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So, after fighting a nasty head cold all week (still not a 100%    >:( ) I finally made a little more progress on the chassis.  After hearing/reading too many different opinions to count "Geometry is more important" "No, areos are more important" No, swing arm location" "No" "No'" "NO"  AWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!  I decided to build my own custom solid strut out of pieces of steel that I happened to have laying around and run the bike with a rigid rear end for my initial runs.  Seems like lots of LSR guys have run rigid initially, just one less thing to worry about I guess.  Anyways, I used a 1 1/4" steel pipe with a 5mm wall for the main shaft, modified a piece of 1"x2" 3mm wall steel square tubing for a clevis and a 7/8" Grade 5 bolt for the adjuster.  I'm pretty happy with the results, tho I wish I could get it to go just a hair lower.  If it bothers me enough I'll trim it down and redo it, but I think it will be ok.  Man, I have to admit that not welding/fabbing in about 3 years has got my arse a little rusty.  Ummmm, pun intended.   :)  Doesn't help that my eyes aren't what they used to be either.  Not that my welds are coming out bad or anything, but they definitely aren't as pretty as they used to be.    8)












Scottie J
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
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BW - Is this the ignition I should be looking into?  I never heard back from Debb @ Rex Caunt Racing so I sent another email this morning asking her to contact me this week.

Racing 4-stroke, 36deg Crank Twin Battery System
http://www.rexcauntracing.com/pages/misc_products.html

It looks like this system has a CDI box with electronic timing advance.  That would be freaking sweet if this will work for my bike!

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
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BW - Is this the ignition I should be looking into?  I never heard back from Debb @ Rex Caunt Racing so I sent another email this morning asking her to contact me this week.

Racing 4-stroke, 36deg Crank Twin Battery System
http://www.rexcauntracing.com/pages/misc_products.html

It looks like this system has a CDI box with electronic timing advance.  That would be freaking sweet if this will work for my bike!

Scottie J
Hi Scottie, you could run with that system, as long as you don't mind having a battery on board.
 The system I was thinking of is the self generating type, with a small magnetic rotor and stator plate fitted on the end of the crank, in place of the alternator. We have them on our Racing Bullets and there is a wasted spark on a single, so, I reckon if you had a twin spark setup as for a single, but used one lead to each of your twin cylinders, you will have a spark every 360 degrees, firing each cylinder in turn with a single plug and an alternating wasted spark doing no harm on the 'other' TDC's.
 Check this link, it's pretty much what I am describing and should work for you  ;)
 B.W.

http://www.rexcauntracing.com/pages/ig_triumph.html

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That Powerarc system is sick!  The sad part is I payed the exact same price got my plain Jane Thorspark!  Just got off the phone with R&R Connecting Rods and they quoted me about $600 for custom steel rods.  The guy said the crank will come apart before the rods break.  Sound good to me!   :D

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I spoke with Glen ??? at Powerarc today and I think I am definitely going to pull the trigger on that ignition.  Holy hell is it awesome!!!  I don't know if anyone has read what the IDS system is capable of, but it is out of this world.  It is by far the most technologically advance ignition system I have ever seen.  It will be an absolute perfect match for the supercharger!

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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For what you are trying to achieve this system will be perfect. Being able to program timing curve, rev limiter, etc., will make it easy to dial it in.

Cool, can't wait to see how it works for you.
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There are so many amazing features about this ignition system, but there is one in particular that really grabs my attention.  You can program up to 3 individually timed sparks, PER CYLINDER, PER COMBUSTION STROKE/CYCLE!!!  Talk about a clean burn system!    ;D  Man, just so many cool features on that little guy.  It is a racers dream come true!  Another cool feature is the programmable red line, that you can set separately from the timing curve.  Meaning you can tell the CDI box "This is how I want my timing curve.   And this is where I want my indicated red line.  Bam!"  But.  BUT, the ignition will allow you to exceed the indicated red line, and then tally and record each time you do exceed red line.  Not to mention the LED static timing indicator.  WHAT?!    :o  It's so bad ass.

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.html

This uses a similar system but pre programs it and provides a complete set of matched components. The best thing about this system is the ability to have multiple maps stored and flick between them with a switch, e.g. launch control with low rpm limiter, the with button push it then changes to normal use. The reason I liked it was that I can have a failsafe map, and use the others for testing and experimenting, I have the programming kit too.
This uses power arc as the base system.

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Life is good when you come across something that really blows your hair back.

And talk about blowing back your hair, hear what Elvis has to say about the PowerArc IDS........ http://cdn.hark.com/swfs/player_32x32.swf?pid=nyrdvbtwyv&as=1
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:44:45 AM by Blltrdr »
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
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http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.html

This uses a similar system but pre programs it and provides a complete set of matched components. The best thing about this system is the ability to have multiple maps stored and flick between them with a switch, e.g. launch control with low rpm limiter, the with button push it then changes to normal use. The reason I liked it was that I can have a failsafe map, and use the others for testing and experimenting, I have the programming kit too.
This uses power arc as the base system.
I'm not sure I get this C5. Looks like it is exactly the same as PA. The C5 install manual shows PA ignition in the photos. What do they offer that makes them better than PA? Also PA has upgraded with the M series units.
2003 Classic 500 5 spd
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I'm not sure I get this C5. Looks like it is exactly the same as PA. The C5 install manual shows PA ignition in the photos. What do they offer that makes them better than PA? Also PA has upgraded with the M series units.

It is the same product but tweaked to suit specific models, I believe the M series units are being developed.


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I've also been thinking about the EFI system.  Rather than buying that kit from Ecotrons, I think I am going to custom build an EFI system utilizing the MegaSquirt 2 system, what ever TB I can make work best, building a custom plenum and mounting an injector on each cylinder just before the intakes on the heads.  I think this will result in a better fuel charge and also help eliminate the dreaded backfire explosions that can happen when running a supercharger with a pull-through set up.

Ace - Will a 65mm TB be too big for my needs?  When I was looking into it last night, I noticed the one TB I was looking at was a 42mm TB for a KTM 250cc.  So maybe 65mm will be ok?  ???  One guy and the landspeed forum had mention that with the supercharger and EFI, too big of a TB won't have nearly as bad of an effect as using too big of a carb on a N/A motor.

Something that I noticed as well is that the MegaSquirt 2 can actually control ignition too.  This could be cool, but I still think I'd be better off going with an external ignition source and have the EFI control box synched by the tach signal.

Here are the parts I'm looking at for the moment:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alloy-Aluminum-Universal-CNC-Billet-Intake-Throttle-Body-65mm-2-5-inch-Racing-/350657550120?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51a4d19728

I really like the idea of using this particular TB as it is everything you need, and nothing you don't need.  Perfect for a race motor.  I think it will work just fine with the blower, but I'm not too good at this whole crunching Algebra numbers.    :-\  TOM!!!     ;D

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Scottie,
The large throttle body is okay for your purpose.
The plenum is in between the TB and the port runners, so the TB is not really a part of the inlet system tuning in the typical way that normally aspirated engines do. In this plenum system, the inlet runners are tuned to their ends, and those ends are inside the plenum with plenty of air around them. The TB is just a feed for the plenum, and as long as it isn't restrictive, then it's okay. 65mm is plenty big enough.
I definitely agree with the injectors at the port runners, or as close to the valves as you can put them.
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Tom - I can't remember.  I know you guys can plasma nitride my crank but I can't remember if you said Mondello's can grind the journals and balance it.......     ???   Getting ready to start  making some more serious progress with this build.

Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Tom - I can't remember.  I know you guys can plasma nitride my crank but I can't remember if you said Mondello's can grind the journals and balance it.......     ???   Getting ready to start  making some more serious progress with this build.

Scottie J
They send it out to someone to do it. I don't know who.
Right now is the height of the mad rush for racing season. Everybody is jammed up to the gills with backlogged work right now. Not a good time.
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Will early summer work out better?  I'm probably going to be sending the conrods out to R&R this week to have custom steel H-Beam rods machined.  They guy I spoke with said they have a couple of Honda Civics with similar dimension rods that are holding over 300HP per cylinder, so I won't have anything to worry about in that department.  ;)  If you're too booked up for the crank I may look for someone local.  There's a pretty good racing scene here.

Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Will early summer work out better?  I'm probably going to be sending the conrods out to R&R this week to have custom steel H-Beam rods machined.  They guy I spoke with said they have a couple of Honda Civics with similar dimension rods that are holding over 300HP per cylinder, so I won't have anything to worry about in that department.  ;)  If you're too booked up for the crank I may look for someone local.  There's a pretty good racing scene here.

Scottie J

If you can find somebody who's not booked up, and is good, then go for it.
I don't know anybody who isn't weeks behind schedule right now, and that's not just Mondello. That's everybody.
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The conrod got sent out yesterday to be reproduced by R&R.  They said there is about a 6 week turn around, so hopefully I will have something back by May.  Also, I believe I found a reputable shop for grinding, balancing and plasma nitriding my crank here in Denver.  So as soon as I have the new rods and pistons, I will take the crank to have that done.

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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Scotty,
I just wanted to mention that even with the blower, you are going to want to spin as many rpms as you feasibly can.
You need the rpms for hp. The torque increase from the blower can only take you to a certain point. It will increase the force of each stroke, but you need to have a lot of those strokes per minute to make the most hp.
Strive for some good rpms.
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I understand.  I've been using 6000 RPMs as a modest reference point knowing that 6000 was the stock redline.  I have a feeling based off of others performance builds I should be able to safely spin 7500 RPMs, maybe even tickle 8000.  I've even been thinking about breaking in the motor without the blower.  Maybe "swap"  ;D the motor into "the other bike" ;D and break it in on the street.  That way I can get a good break in without damaging anything.  It will also give me a good idea of how much power difference there is between the new motor and a mostly stock motor.

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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News today that the custom rockers are moving along. Looking at 1.45 ratio for about .500" lift at the valves.
Possibly seeing completed custom rockers for this in a couple or three weeks, if nothing comes up to intervene.

A nice benefit for you vintage twin owners is that these rockers apparently are used all across the twin model line, so this development can be accessed in the future by any twin owners seeking performance upgrades.
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I was very excited by this news today.  Even without a supercharger, these 1.45 ratio rockers are going to be hands down the BIGGEST most beneficial engine mod these old twins have ever seen!  :D  At .500 lift the head will flow about 20-30% more air/fuel than the standard .328 can do on their own.  Add the .354 Interceptor "R" cams and you have a vintage pushrod motor to be reckoned with.  This bike is going to be freaking awesome!   ;D

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Scottie,
I got word from Mondello's that your heads are basically finished, except for final assembly.
We are still waiting for the rockers, but the rocker company is communicating, and seems to be on track.

So, they are getting done.
It's not just sitting around, in case you were wondering.
 :)
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Cool!  Sounds good!
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I just had a thought Tom.  I'm still a ways away from having the Bonneville motor/bike built, but the Blackhawk still wants to run like a raped ape and I was already thinking about putting the it on a dyno anyways.  I should go run it the way it is set up now, and then install the new heads and the twin carb set up and go tune it on the dyno again.  This will give us a better idea of what the work has actually done over stock form before slamming the supercharger on there.

Scottie J
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Okay.
That will work fine.
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Pics!!!
 ;D

Please view in the attachments.
#1) Chamber with thermal barrier coatings, high performance valve seats, custom made valve guides, Ace/Mondello valve job, view of port bowls.

#2) Chamber view of head, also showing the custom valves, beehive springs, valve stem seals.

#3) Intake port view from port entry end.

#4) Exhaust port view from header exit end,  also showing ceramic coating
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 06:56:02 PM by ace.cafe »
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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Hot Dang!!!  SexxxxxxY!!!  I spoke with the dealership with the dyno today.  Going to try and get the bike in there the first week of June for 3 baseline runs.   :D

Looking really really good Tom, can't wait to see the finished product!

Scottie J
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Tom - I can't remember if I asked this before or not, and I'm too tired and lazy to look back.   :D  For the Blackhawk, what size TMs should I run, 32's or 34's?    ???
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ace.cafe

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I would run TM32.
The port is 1.25" (31.75mm)and it flows 160 cfm, and the TM32  will flow more than that, and be responsive. It flows enough to feed a Fireball 535, and you will have one for each cylinder. I am assuming you will run twin carbs.
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Yes 2 carbs.  Thanks.   :)
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Today, the plastic rapid-prototype rockers for the Chief heads came in to Mondello's from the rocker company.

This is for a try/fit to be sure that everything fits right, and the geometry is good.

Once that is verified, then they will make them in steel.

These will be steel roller rockers with 1.5:1 ratio, which will ride on the standard rocker shafts, and work with our hi-lift valve/spring kit to achieve approximately .520" max lift.
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Awesome!  Very exciting!  So they were able to make the rockers a full 1.5:1 ratio?  Last we spoke we were talking 1.45:1 ratio.  Very excited to hear how they fit and work.   ;D

Scottie J
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1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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Awesome!  Very exciting!  So they were able to make the rockers a full 1.5:1 ratio?  Last we spoke we were talking 1.45:1 ratio.  Very excited to hear how they fit and work.   ;D

Scottie J

We're seeing how much we can fit in.
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We're seeing how much we can fit in.

That's what I'm talking about.   :D
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So, Tom...  Have you come up with a name for the Twin treatment?     :)
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So, Tom...  Have you come up with a name for the Twin treatment?     :)

British twins headjob? ;)
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So, Tom...  Have you come up with a name for the Twin treatment?     :)

I have a few ideas for a name.
"Bonneville" heads, based on the LSR goal for the build.
"Rock N Roller" heads, based on the roller rocker set-up.
"Pair of Aces" heads, based on the twin format.
"Ace/Mondello GP" heads, like we call our single versions of this layout.

Anyway, regarding your exhaust system, I did a few calculations, and it looks like you want to have primary pipe lengths of 30" each, measured from the back of the exhaust valve, to the end of the pipe, so you have to add whatever that exhaust port length is to the length of the pipe, and that would be your 30".
And the I.D. of the primary header pipes should be 1.5" because you are supercharging, and that needs extra room in the exhaust. That 1.5" figure is based on 150% volumetric efficiency, which is about what I figure that boost will be giving it. For N/A application the 1.375" I.D. would work fine.

And some other calcs I did on the intake side show it should support up to 8250 rpm with this port size in N/A format, and should be able to do even more with boost, if more is wanted. That's based on the 3.66" stroke crank from the Interceptor, because I think that's what you'll be using, right? If you use the 3.54" stroke, it will support revs even higher than that.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 02:29:05 PM by ace.cafe »
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I have a few ideas for a name.
"Bonneville" heads, based on the LSR goal for the build.
"Rock N Roller" heads, based on the roller rocker set-up.
"Pair of Aces" heads, based on the twin format.
"Ace/Mondello GP" heads, like we call our single versions of this layout.

Anyway, regarding your exhaust system, I did a few calculations, and it looks like you want to have primary pipe lengths of 30" each, measured from the back of the exhaust valve, to the end of the pipe, so you have to add whatever that exhaust port length is to the length of the pipe, and that would be your 30".
And the I.D. of the primary header pipes should be 1.5" because you are supercharging, and that needs extra room in the exhaust. That 1.5" figure is based on 150% volumetric efficiency, which is about what I figure that boost will be giving it. For N/A application the 1.375" I.D. would work fine.

And some other calcs I did on the intake side show it should support up to 8250 rpm with this port size in N/A format, and should be able to do even more with boost, if more is wanted. That's based on the 3.66" stroke crank from the Interceptor, because I think that's what you'll be using, right? If you use the 3.54" stroke, it will support revs even higher than that.



How about combining #2 and #3 and calling them the Rocking Aces?!  :D

And I'll be using the 90mm/3.54" stroke crank.  Are you telling me I'll be able to hit 9000 RPMs NA?!   :o

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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

ace.cafe

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I'll say that the flow should be able get to 8500+ rpm with the blower

The bottom parts might be some other story
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 03:16:06 AM by ace.cafe »
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That's where the custom steel H-beam rods and having the crank plasma nitrided comes into play.  Right?!   ;)
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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That's where the custom steel H-beam rods and having the crank plasma nitrided comes into play.  Right?!   ;)

It "should".
Whether it actually will has yet to be seen.
If that crank is cast, then getting up to 9000 is about the limits of a cast crank, no matter what you do to it. If it is forged steel, then it could go higher.

The ports can do 8250 in N/A format before getting into choking. With the blower, the temps are higher, and compressibility is involved, so this has the effect of raising the choke limit speed(mach index).


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Took a pic of the rocker proto when I went to mondello's this morning.
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Freaking sick!   ;D   ;D   ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Freaking sick!   ;D   ;D   ;D
Yeah, I liked it too.

Next step is fit it into the head, because it requires some relieving of some of the casting inside the rocker box area, before it can get the shaft to go thru.
There will be threaded holes created in the castings above the adjuster nuts, with removable threaded plugs, so that the adjustments can be made from above
Heavy duty steel pushrods will be required, non-adjustable.

This is a 1.5:1 rocker, so it looks like around .522" lift with the Interceptor R cams. That's pushing the lift limit of these valve springs before they hit coil bind .
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 07:54:11 PM by ace.cafe »
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Update!

The rockers are being shipped from the rocker company today. Once they arrive, they need to be installed and checked for proper everything, and enough clearance all around inside the castings. Some grinding inside the castings is going to be needed, and we know that.
Assuming no unforeseen complications, completion should be by the end of next week.

Don't buy any carbs yet. The manifolds may not match a TM32. I will measure them next week when I'm there. Remember, we made these stubs for use with the supercharger plenum. We can figure out a carb fitment later.

I am having them work up an invoice for us, and I'll forward you the amount of total damages as soon as I know the amount.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 02:45:56 PM by ace.cafe »
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Awesome!  I'm excited and scared.  Hopefully I'll be able to keep my soul.  LOL   ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Don't worry.
I expect it will be around the area that we have discussed.
And remember, this is something that nobody else has ever had in the history of the Enfield twin world.
 8)
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Don't worry.
I expect it will be around the area that we have discussed.
And remember, this is something that nobody else has ever had in the history of the Enfield twin world.
 8)

I figured as much Tom, no worries.  I'm just really excited that this project is starting to materialize with the completion of these heads and knowing that they are the very first of it's kind.  It also means I need to get my ass in gear and get the Blackhawk on the dyno and get a baseline run down.   ;)
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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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The new roller rockers have arrived at the shop.
I haven't seen them yet, but the guys at the shop say that they are "sexy as hell!"
They are going to do the final fitting, and add threaded bungs with brass plugs in the head above the adjuster nuts, so it is easy to adjust them.

I'm going over there in the next day or so, and I'll snap some photos.
 8) ;D
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The interesting parts of this thread draw ever nearer  8) 8)
 B.W.

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The interesting parts of this thread draw ever nearer  8) 8)
 B.W.

You said it...


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Freaking fantastic!  I like "sexy as hell".    8)  XXX   ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Heading over to the shop now.
Will take pics.
 8)
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Awesome!  Funny, I was just thinking of when you were going to take pics.   :)
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Pics!

These 3 pics are of the custom roller rockers and the custom valve/spring stack. VERRRRY COOL!  8)
BTW, it turned out to be 1.45:1, so the max lift will be .510" with the .352 cams.

Of course, in case anyone didn't already know, this is another "ACE" first and exclusive! Never before in history!
This package should be able to fit all later Royal Enfield twins, such as the Super Meteor, Constellation, and Interceptor 750.
As you can see, there is considerable machine work necessary to get this all together, but if anyone feels capable to do the machine work themselves, we can provide a parts kit of all the custom parts.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 09:46:22 PM by ace.cafe »
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These 3 pics are of the mods done to the head casting, which include welding up the area above the rocker adjusters, threading a pipe thread into them, and installing pipe plugs for covers. The rockers can be adjusted from the top thru these adjustment ports. VERY nice work. It looks like they are part of the factory heads!
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Very nice work  8) 8) 8)
 B.W.

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Absolutely beautiful!  Wow!  Fantastic work!  Amazing even!  This engine is going to be so bad ass.  I can't wait to get it built and on the track.  I think test and tune at Bandimere goes until the end of October.  Maybe, just maybe, I can get her to run a couple of quarter miles before the snow arrives.   8)

Amazing work as always Tom.  Be sure to tell the boys at Mondello's that the customer is extremely happy and even more excited.   ;D

Scottie J
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The Blackhawk
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And all that clever stuff will be hidden away...  :(

Did Mandello's throw in a free set of plexiglass rocker covers?

A.

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We can't be showing off too much.  The crotch rockets won't want to race me!    ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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We can't be showing off too much.  The crotch rockets won't want to race me!    ;D
I trust we will be fitting 3.50 and 3.25 x 19 Avon SM tyres and comfortable, sensible handlebars with rear view mirrors to this machine in that case?  ;) ;D
 B.W.

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I trust we will be fitting 3.50 and 3.25 x 19 Avon SM tyres and comfortable, sensible handlebars with rear view mirrors to this machine in that case?  ;) ;D
 B.W.


I just figured I could lure in the cocky riders by simply saying "want to race a 60 year old motorcycle?  She left the factory with only 40hp."    ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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The manifolds are 1-3/8" outside diameter.
They needed to be small enough so that the stud spacing would still work with them on there.
The inside diameter is 1.25".
So, the wall thickness is not real thick. Carb supports on the flying ends would be a good idea.

The O.D. of the TM32 hose stub is 40mm. That is just a bit larger than 1-1/2". A 1-1/2" I.D. hose will typically stretch over it, because that's what we usually use.
However, the manifold stubs are 1-3/8" O.D., so there will be a slight mismatch there, and some method of adapting those diameters will be needed. It is likely at a 1-3/8" hose which has a more stretchy nature could be used. Or a short rubber sleeve over the manifold to match to the 1-1/2" hose could work too.

So, the TM32 would be the right carb size for this, and a little creativity for the connector hose will be needed.
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Ready to ship!!
 8)
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Alright, sounds great!  I'll take care of things on my end and give you a call.  :D  This is awesome!  Feels great to be a part of history.    8)

And Tom.  I just looked at the cam stats for the S Meteor and Connie.  I'm not sure what I have because my bike seems to be a mix of parts and not true to a standard Trailblazer.  But good news is if it has the Connie cams with .344 In and .328 Ex with the new rockers it will be good for .498 and .475.  Even if it has the pouchy S Meteor cams at .312 each they will still be good for .453 which is still quite respectable.  So glad we decided to go with the custom high ratio rollers.   :)

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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building the 1st EVER Supercharged RE Twin
FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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Alright, sounds great!  I'll take care of things on my end and give you a call.  :D  This is awesome!  Feels great to be a part of history.    8)

And Tom.  I just looked at the cam stats for the S Meteor and Connie.  I'm not sure what I have because my bike seems to be a mix of parts and not true to a standard Trailblazer.  But good news is if it has the Connie cams with .344 In and .328 Ex with the new rockers it will be good for .498 and .475.  Even if it has the pouchy S Meteor cams at .312 each they will still be good for .453 which is still quite respectable.  So glad we decided to go with the custom high ratio rollers.   :)

Scottie J
The smaller cams will just make somewhat less power, but may be more tractable for street use. The rockers do give their ratio to whatever cam you use, so you get some nice flexibility with various cam lobe options available.

Oh, and BTW, these heads actually ARE maxxed out by an Ace performance tuner!
Heh heh ! ;D
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The smaller cams will just make somewhat less power, but may be more tractable for street use. The rockers do give their ratio to whatever cam you use, so you get some nice flexibility with various cam lobe options available.

Oh, and BTW, these heads actually ARE maxxed out by an Ace performance tuner!
Heh heh ! ;D

Hahaha!    ;D
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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FULL RACE motor with ACE Performance

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I'm not sure if what we have accomplished here is actually sinking in yet around the Enfield Twin world.
It's posted on 3 different Enfield forums, and not a peep from anybody about it yet.
Strange.
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I was thinking the same thing.......    :-\
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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I for one am following this!  I can't wait to see (via Scotty's videos of course!) that beautiful piece of work in action!
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I for one am following this!  I can't wait to see (via Scotty's videos of course!) that beautiful piece of work in action!

Thanks Dan!  And you are right, these heads are beautiful.  An absolute work of art to be honest.

But Tom, you're right.  I don't think people realize what we have accomplished.  Perhaps most people here don't understand the technical side of vintage racing enough for to grasp what has been done to these heads.  When Tom and I first started talking almost 2 years ago, my first questions were "How radical can we go?  And how radical has been done?"  To  answer the 2nd question 1st, not that radical.  Some good port and valve jobs, but the maximum lift anyone has achieved before was .352 of lift on the Intake.  I told Ace I wanted the most radical full out race head.  With the help of the new custom high ratio roller rockers, they have the potential of producing .510 OF LIFT!!!  Even with the smallest manufactured twin camshafts, these heads will produce .453, .100 MORE lift than ever achieved before!  And this is compared the BEST winningest bikes in Royal Enfields ENTIRE racing history!

My 700 twin will be putting out the same HP as a Norton 850 Commando...  With the small cams and 8:1 pistons.  And that is with just bolting these heads on as is and doing nothing else.  Once I set the compression and install Interceptor cams, this bike will do 130mph+ without the aid of a supercharger.  With the supercharger, the bike should produce somewhere close to 125hp and estimated top speed is very close to 200mph.  The only other Enfield ever to break 200mph was Don Sliger with his twin engine Interceptor.  And it took him TWO engines to make 203mph.

I've also decided that because these heads are in fact revolutionary, I am going to test these heads in different stages and set ups so that we can see exactly what parts will produce what numbers with these heads.  Every stage of upgrades will then be dyno tested so that all the results are right there on paper.  I am going to dyno my bike as is before any other mods.  Then I am going to install the heads onto the motor without any other mods and dyno again to see the results of a "bolt on" application, then again after installing higher compression pistons and cams, and then again further down the road after I install the supercharger.

So stay tuned because this is just the beginning of history being made. 

Hats off to Tom! :D
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:05:15 AM by High On Octane »
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With having our own project on the go and nearing completion, with Tom's high ratio rockers and valve gear fitted [Big Head Bullet / Fury racer], I am following this thread with interest, both here and on the 'Ace' site - which is the third one, out of interest?
 Anyway, I think you will get plenty of folk looking at the conversations about the project taking shape, but the real impact will come once the machine is up and running, with, perhaps some video footage and so on. I reckon you will get much more 'audience participation' once this stage is reached, but I very much doubt these efforts are being ignored at present.
 I for one will be talking lots about our project and this one, when they are up and running and I bet others will be joining in too  8) 8)
 B.W.

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With having our own project on the go and nearing completion, with Tom's high ratio rockers and valve gear fitted [Big Head Bullet / Fury racer], I am following this thread with interest, both here and on the 'Ace' site - which is the third one, out of interest?
 Anyway, I think you will get plenty of folk looking at the conversations about the project taking shape, but the real impact will come once the machine is up and running, with, perhaps some video footage and so on. I reckon you will get much more 'audience participation' once this stage is reached, but I very much doubt these efforts are being ignored at present.
 I for one will be talking lots about our project and this one, when they are up and running and I bet others will be joining in too  8) 8)
 B.W.

Hi B.W. !
Thanks!

The sites I posted pics on are my Ace Yahoo Group, and the other Royal Enfield Yahoo Group for general Royal Enfield enthusiasts. There are some twin owners on that group, but it seems participation there has dwindled down lately.
But, as you say, I think people are seeing it, even if they aren't responding about it. And once they see it in action, it will probably spur some into action.

I suppose that not everyone can understand all the advantages of this type of upgrade, just by seeing it. I know that you and Scottie and I and some others can understand that, and we can move on things just from that knowledge. But not everyone can, and so some demonstration of the results will be very helpful for them. That will come soon.

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A lot of people underestimate these motors Tom. Wait till you guys start setting records, things will change real quick ;)


-Sanket

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DanB, I am looking forward to videos and reports from Scottie too, and I'm sure that he will oblige! ;D

Scottie, and others, regarding the performance increases involved with this porting and rocker system, it is fairly straightforward to do some relative estimates about it, based on air flow.

These heads flow 30 cfm more at peak lift, than the stock heads do. That's for each head.
There are estimation formulae which are used to make some useful predictions about power from air flow, and we use those to help guide us in our work. For a high performance build with high compression and all the proper tuning methods for making highest power, the estimation is .256 times cfm. Since this is just about 25%, we can use an easy rule-of-thumb and say that there is about one hp for every 4 cfm of peak airflow, in a racing grade engine. This is an estimate method, and it can be a little more or less in the real world, but it gives a useful directional indication of what the head will probably be able to do.

In Scottie's heads, our work has provided 160 cfm peak flow per head. This is an easy one to figure, because it comes out evenly when divided by 4.
160/4 is 40 hp. That's at the crank.
And there are two heads involved, at 40 hp each, so that's a total output estimate of 80 hp at the crank, from this engine in normally aspirated(carb or EFI) full race tune.

Now, there are other ways to look at this, based on factory performance levels or street use.
We can look at this engine, and see that it peaks at 130 cfm in factory form. And we see Scotty saying that the bike is rated at about 40hp from the factory in its 1958 form when new. That's 20 hp per cylinder. So, we can divide 130 cfm by the factory 20 hp per cylinder, and we find that this factory engine requires 6.5 cfm of peak airflow to make one hp, instead of 4. This is due to a lower stage of performance that the factory street machines often reflect.

So, to extrapolate the basic street tuned expectations with standard compression and similar tuning as a factory bike might be, we can divide our 160 cfm by 6.5 and get 24.6 hp per cylinder, or a total estimate of 49.2 hp, just by putting on this head, not including any higher revving of the engine or anything else. Same rpm limits as stock. That's nearly 25% increase, essentially all from increased torque.

But hp comes from torque x rpm, so we also made the heads to allow higher revving for that purpose. In fact, we made it to rev about 30% higher than stock. So, take that 50 hp, and times it by 1.3 and we get 65 hp if it goes up to 8450 rpm. That's probably more than a street bike is going to be able to do. So, let's look at a more reasonable rpm max for the street, at like 7200 rpm, and multiply by 1.11, and this gives us 55.5 hp for a reasonable expectation of street power at reasonable street max rpms for a street built motor with a bottom end that can handle 7200 rpm. Approximately 40% power increase at that stage of tune.

So, depending on how you want to build this engine, I'd estimate the power range to fall between 50-80 hp at the crank. The more "racy" you build the engine, the more power it will be capable of. The breathing is there for it. It all comes down to the level of the rest of the build, and the rpm that you wind it up to. These heads can go over 8000 rpms. That's where the max power levels will be.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 12:32:56 PM by ace.cafe »
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ace.cafe

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But, do we move enough air????

Let's see.

8250 rpm has 4125 intake cycles per minute.
4125 intake cycles of 350cc each equals 1443.75 liters per minute.
We want to have availability of 125% volumetric efficiency if we can get it, so 1443.75 x 1.25 =1804.6875 liters per minute is needed.

There's 28.3 liters per cubic foot of air. So, we divide 1804.6875 by 28.3, and we get 63.76 cfm.
However, we only get about 2/3 of a revolution on the intake cycle to get that air in, we have to multiply that by 1.6 to get that same amount in in that shorter time period. So then we get 102 cfm needed to feed this engine at 8250 rpm at 125% volumetric efficiency.

Okay, so we have 160 cfm, but it doesn't flow 160 the whole time, because we have the valves getting open, and then closing down. So, we can look at the average flow rate over the whole lift cycle which is typically about 2/3 of the peak flow rate. I don't have the chart in front of me right now.
So, 66% of 160 is 105 cfm estimated average flow out of this head.

We need essentially 102 cfm to feed it, and we are averaging about 105 cfm over the lift cycle, which  gives us just a little more than we need, just in case.
------------------------------------------------

Okay, now let's look at the port size.
Our 1.25" port gives a minimum cross sectional area of 1.227 square inches.
A very well ported head that flows exceptionally well can utilize a mach index of up to 0.6 of the speed of sound before choking. That's about the limit. We strive to size our ports to reach our mach limit at the approximate maximum rpm that we plan to reach, in normally aspirated(N/A) trim.
So, let's see how we did.

When we input the Super Meteor engine specs into the mach index calculator, along with the .040" overbore size of the piston, at 8250 rpm, and .500" lift, and a 1.227 sq. in. port size, here's what we get.

**Intake Port Mach Index**

Your bore size is 2.8 inches with a stroke of 3.54 inches
and with a valve diameter of 1.5 inches and cross sectional area of 1.227.
Running a valve lift of .500 inches at 8250 RPM,
Your intake port velocity is 307.22 fps
Your intake valve mach index is 0.59

------------------------------------------------------

I think that's looking good to me. ;D
So, we can feed the engine the right amount of air to hit 8250 rpm at 125% volumetric efficiency, which is plenty of available air.
And, we can reach the target rpm of 8250 in N/A trim, just a hair below the choke speed, so that we get the fastest moving air possible at the time that we need it.

Everyone following that?
You ain't getting that kind of work off anybody else doing these engines.
 8)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 08:11:00 PM by ace.cafe »
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High On Octane

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Excellent explanation of how these things work Ace!  I would say that you have definitely built these heads to the absolute MAXIMUM potential.  I absolutely cannot wait to bolt these babies on! 

Just to put things into perspective:  The work that has been done to these heads is the exact same work that is done to 3000hp top fuel dragsters, just on a much smaller displacement motor.  Usually just being able to get a 15-20% increase in power is a nice accomplishment.  In full race trim, this motor has the potential of producing 80bhp.  That is 100% increase over stock.  Absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve with bolt on parts alone.
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ace.cafe

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It's about 1.875 hp per cubic inch.
Or about 114 hp per liter.
Hard to do much more than that with a small bore long stroke aircooled pushrod twin from the 1950s.

Even Ducati only manages 92 hp/liter from their aircooled 2-valve twins, and those are pretty much the current state of the art in todays aircooled twins. Maybe their race versions are up around what we have, but they have overhead cams and much bigger bores and shorter strokes than we do, which makes a big difference.

The power potential of this Enfield twin platform is pretty potent.
With a supercharger it would probably do 3hp per cubic inch which would hit Scottie's goal for that blown version(125hp).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 09:41:11 PM by ace.cafe »
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Just a hypothetical thought for further down the road.......

I started thinking about this yesterday.  I don't know the clearances off the top of my head so this would take further investigating to actually make possible.  BUT, If I were to custom machine a 1 piece cylinder for my twin that would accept 79.75mm pistons and the original 90mm stroke, that would make my bike just cunt hair over 899cc............

Thoughts?  ???
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ace.cafe

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Just a hypothetical thought for further down the road.......

I started thinking about this yesterday.  I don't know the clearances off the top of my head so this would take further investigating to actually make possible.  BUT, If I were to custom machine a 1 piece cylinder for my twin that would accept 79.75mm pistons and the original 90mm stroke, that would make my bike just cunt hair over 899cc............

Thoughts?  ???

I think it comes down to crank spacing between rods.
You can mod the barrels, and also make bigger holes in the top of the crankcase for bores, but the rod spacing will probably be the determining factor.
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WOW Scott your going to have one wild ride ! , That's Very Cool 8) .