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Author Topic: ACE Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs Twin - PROJECT ABORTED  (Read 6864 times)

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 08:59:54 PM »
Sat down and had a nice talk with my engine guy last night.  We decided that because we going to be boosting this motor after all, it is really unnecessary to spend almost $2000 on just pistons and rods alone going with custom 1-off CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  Maybe on a future NA application/build, but like most garage builders, we need to get the most bang-for-the-buck that we can.  So we decided that the forged Omega 8:1 performance pistons and billet rods from Hitchcock's will work just fine for this build.  The pistons and rods are still a very robust design, but nearly half the cost of going with custom CP pistons and Carrillo rods.  When all said and done, I will essentially have a 750 MK1 Interceptor with all the bells and whistles, plus the turbo charger, with a 90mm stroke as opposed to a 93mm stroke on an actual Interceptor.  I also think I may have place that I might be able to Dyno tune the bike (a friend of a friend type deal).

Tom - Are we looking at the first of the year before the heads will see the flow bench?  No worries, just curious.   :)

Scottie
No, it has been on the flow bench, but I don't have a print-out, and the guys from Mondello's are gone until Monday night at a trade show.
I don't have the figures, but they are written on a legal pad on the desk at Mondello's. I saw them written on there.

Valve size is already near max.

We're working on figuring out how to attack the rocker issue.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 09:07:18 PM by ace.cafe »

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:41:51 PM »
Cool!  Thanks for the update Tom.

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

woodsman

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 02:24:46 AM »
Scottie i love your Trailblazer.
one of my old motorcycle magazines has a triumph twin with a chevrolet corvair car turbo mounted.  it was just a simple write up with no performance figures.

TejK

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2013, 05:48:56 AM »
Impressive stuff Scottie !! This is going to be a kick ass bike - All the best !!

Why a turbo and not a Supercharger setup ?

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »
Impressive stuff Scottie !! This is going to be a kick ass bike - All the best !!

Why a turbo and not a Supercharger setup ?

Turbos and blowers have their pros and cons.  The reason why I am going with a turbo is because ultimately you have more power control with a turbo than with a blower.  Blowers will typically build more HP than a turbo, and depending on the application, can make a big power house out of a motor.  The disadvantage of running a blower is that because they are gear/pulley driven off of the motor itself, it takes MORE HP to produce bigger HP.  Meaning, it takes more energy in order to turn the added drag of the blower being bolted to the motor, thus you need some respectable N/A HP to make some monster numbers with the blower.  Because of this, smaller motors that don't have a whole lot of N/A HP to begin with will usually suffer slightly from running a blower because by the time the blower spools up and really starts crunching air, you are usually running out of RPMs.

On the flip side, turbos need to spool up as well, but because they are powered from the exhaust pipe, the power band is basically only limited by the valve train and timing keeping up with the RPMs of the motor.  Therefor, for a smaller displacement motor, a turbo can build more HP faster.  There is no "drag" on the motor with a turbo, and once a turbo spools, your HP is only limited to your tuning capabilities over the motor.  This includes a combination of timing, (which is typically more retarded than a N/A motor), fuel mapping, boost controller and blow off valve.  Also, another advantage to running a turbo over a blower is that with a turbo, because  everything is tunable, I will be able to tune for more HP at lower RPMs and not put such a load/strain on the motor.   I personally don't know much about tuning for a turbo, that's where my engine guy/friend comes into play.  He's a Turbo Guru and is just as excited to build this bike as I am.  What I can tell you is that we are shooting for 110HP at the rear wheel and this bike will be Dyno tuned and then broken in at the Drag Strip.

Scottie
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:56:52 PM by Scottie J »
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

woodsman

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2013, 07:32:39 PM »
 a ton of information . i did a quick review and i will be surprised if you don't find some usable idea. http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html#news
best of luck with your build. ps look at the 741 indian salt build http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html .

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2013, 08:25:29 PM »
Those Elsburg blowers look nice but they are way too small for my needs.  Plus I don't like the fact that when you install a blower on a bike you are very limited as to where you can mount it and drive it.

Do you know what that Indian 741 ended up running?  There was like 64 pages on that thread.

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2013, 08:26:41 PM »
My step son totally loves me.  He got me The World's Fastest Indian for Christmas.   I will be watching that many more times.   :D
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2013, 09:48:51 PM »
If I were going to use a supercharger on one of these things for racing, I'd size the supercharger to a larger capacity, and drive it at half speed off the distributor/magneto drive shaft, and move the ignition to a crank trigger system in the primary, and go total-loss electrical system with a small li-ion battery.
This puts the SC right at the intake port area where you want it, the drive for it is already right there, it gets the ignition triggered off the crank to eliminate timing shifts from gear/chain lash in the distributor drive chain, and eliminates the dynamo entirely because it's not necessary for racing and we don't need to use up hp driving it, and it uses a lightweight and hi-capacity battery of li-ion to bring the electrics without drive losses or any unnecessary weight.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2013, 03:25:03 AM »
I noticed somewhere on that page about using a Subaru turbo on a motorcycle.  I have all kinds of those laying around work!

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2013, 02:21:08 PM »
Finally got my rule book the other day before Christmas.  After having a look at the rules and records I've decided that I am initially going to build this bike naked without a fairing.  The current record for M-PBF is only 129.953 by a BMW, and this record was set many years ago.  I'm pretty confident that I can make that record my little bitch and put RE on the Bonneville record maps for sure.  :D  I'd still like to hit close to 150mph, but even if I only hit 140mph, I'll still crush the current standing record for this class.

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

TejK

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2013, 07:57:48 AM »
  Therefor, for a smaller displacement motor, a turbo can build more HP faster.  There is no "drag" on the motor with a turbo, and once a turbo spools, your HP is only limited to your tuning capabilities over the motor.  This includes a combination of timing, (which is typically more retarded than a N/A motor), fuel mapping, boost controller and blow off valve.  Also, another advantage to running a turbo over a blower is that with a turbo, because  everything is tunable, I will be able to tune for more HP at lower RPMs and not put such a load/strain on the motor.   I personally don't know much about tuning for a turbo, that's where my engine guy/friend comes into play.  He's a Turbo Guru and is just as excited to build this bike as I am.  What I can tell you is that we are shooting for 110HP at the rear wheel and this bike will be Dyno tuned and then broken in at the Drag Strip.

Scottie

So its actually better to have a turbo setup for a low ( stock ) output engine to prevent the power losses to run the blower. I was thinking a supercharger may be better as the exhaust pulses may be intermittent and will result in the turbo taking longer to spool on a long stroke bike like the enfield. However, I am guessing this will not be of issue with a twin cyl Enfield cause of higher exhaust flow ( ??) .

Also, is it true that for forced induction engines the porting ( less or minimal porting needed due to higher intake pressure)  is done differently that the normal free to air type porting ( ACE ??)  :-\

D

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2013, 12:09:08 PM »
So its actually better to have a turbo setup for a low ( stock ) output engine to prevent the power losses to run the blower. I was thinking a supercharger may be better as the exhaust pulses may be intermittent and will result in the turbo taking longer to spool on a long stroke bike like the enfield. However, I am guessing this will not be of issue with a twin cyl Enfield cause of higher exhaust flow ( ??) .

Also, is it true that for forced induction engines the porting ( less or minimal porting needed due to higher intake pressure)  is done differently that the normal free to air type porting ( ACE ??)  :-\

D

A twin will run a turbo. A single doesn't really do it well. A four would be better.

Regarding the porting, actually for a turbo, the porting is done the same as normally aspirated for the intake. The exhaust might get a little more size than normal. The camming is very different with any type of forced induction. Porting for a supercharged drag racer would be larger in all ways. Supercharging moderately for the street could be ported the same as normally aspirated. Very application dependent things.

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2013, 12:38:00 PM »
A twin will run a turbo. A single doesn't really do it well. A four would be better.

Regarding the porting, actually for a turbo, the porting is done the same as normally aspirated for the intake. The exhaust might get a little more size than normal. The camming is very different with any type of forced induction. Porting for a supercharged drag racer would be larger in all ways. Supercharging moderately for the street could be ported the same as normally aspirated. Very application dependent things.

What's your professional opinion Tom?  For what I'm doing, am I better off with a turbo or a blower?  What do you recommend?  I guess I was always under the impression that turbos were more efficient at producing bigger numbers.  Am I wrong about this?

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 01:23:45 PM »
Found another Turbo on Fleabay that looks promising.  Says it capable of producing 14psi of boost.  :)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300967839466&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Scottie
Scottie J  ~  Bulldog Kustoms Denver  ~  1958 Enfield/Indian Trailblazer  ~  1959 Enfield/Indian Chief