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Author Topic: ACE Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs SUPERCHARGER '59 Chief Bonneville Build!  (Read 4579 times)

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2013, 02:26:45 PM »
What's your professional opinion Tom?  For what I'm doing, am I better off with a turbo or a blower?  What do you recommend?  I guess I was always under the impression that turbos were more efficient at producing bigger numbers.  Am I wrong about this?

Scottie

Scottie,
It's very difficult to make a blanket statement about that. They are both blowers. They do the same thing. They differ in the ways that they are driven. The turbo interferes with the exhaust stream, and the supercharger takes power off the crank. Both cause power drains in different ways, but the increases that they provide outweigh any losses by far. The biggest difference in noticeable behavior to the driver is the response lag that comes from the turbo. The turbo "lags" and the SC is instant response. Turbos are popular with road racers, but drag racers all use superchargers. There are pro's and con's.  Size, location, and packaging can play big roles. Ability to fabricate a practical drive system can be an issue. You have to weigh all these things in the balance and decide what's best for the application.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

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azcatfan

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2013, 03:00:33 PM »
Scottie,
It's very difficult to make a blanket statement about that. They are both blowers. They do the same thing. They differ in the ways that they are driven. The turbo interferes with the exhaust stream, and the supercharger takes power off the crank. Both cause power drains in different ways, but the increases that they provide outweigh any losses by far. The biggest difference in noticeable behavior to the driver is the response lag that comes from the turbo. The turbo "lags" and the SC is instant response. Turbos are popular with road racers, but drag racers all use superchargers. There are pro's and con's.  Size, location, and packaging can play big roles. Ability to fabricate a practical drive system can be an issue. You have to weigh all these things in the balance and decide what's best for the application.

+1 

My experience with boosted applications isn't with motorcycles but some of the principles are the same.  That instant-on power with the SC needs to have a really strong clutch to handle the launch.  Depending on how much you stage the spool on the turbo, the launch is a little less harsh.  Just some things to consider VS naturally aspirated in drag racing applications...
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2013, 06:57:35 PM »
When I worked as a marine engineer on tugs a few years back, we had one tug engine room equipped with a couple of Detroit Diesel 6-71 auxiliaries, driving the generators. These were 2 stroke, 6 cylinder diesels with large superchargers which were themselves fed by turbochargers driven by the exhaust gases. We also had some larger V12 units driving fire pumps, bow thrusters and winches, these had two turbos feeding a single central blower, like in this video. Our main engines were very much larger, though!
 Edit - my point here is this - perhaps you could use a blower AND a turbo together in this way to good effect on your project, Scottie? Just a thought.
 B.W.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z3WFSSHLXQ
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 12:03:42 PM by Bullet Whisperer »

High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2014, 02:18:29 AM »
Looky at what I found (thanks to suggestions on the landracing forum)!

Aisin AMR500 Supercharger



http://www.kemotorsport.com/

Lots of guys have bolted these to bikes.  It actually appears that it the supercharger that the custom supercharged 700cc thumper that you see pics of here on the forum.  It produces 500cfm of boost per revolution.  My plan is to fire the ignition off of the crank and remove the distributor/magneto and have a custom shaft machined up that will replace distributor that I can mount an array of different pulleys that will drive the blower.  The best part is that all I have to do is interchange the pulleys to change the amount of boost I want to build!  :D

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
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Bullet Whisperer

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2014, 09:14:11 AM »
Looks interesting, Scottie. Just one point, though - if you take a drive for the supercharger from the [redundant?] ignition drive, you will be relying on a very light timing chain and an even lighter duplex magneto / distributor drive chain, unless you plan to revamp this area of the motor. Also, any output to the blower will be at half the engine speed.
 If you can get a drive from the crank somehow, it can be more robust and you will be able to drive the blower at a greater choice of speeds and much faster if you need to.
 B.W.

High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2014, 12:48:33 PM »
Looks interesting, Scottie. Just one point, though - if you take a drive for the supercharger from the [redundant?] ignition drive, you will be relying on a very light timing chain and an even lighter duplex magneto / distributor drive chain, unless you plan to revamp this area of the motor. Also, any output to the blower will be at half the engine speed.
 If you can get a drive from the crank somehow, it can be more robust and you will be able to drive the blower at a greater choice of speeds and much faster if you need to.
 B.W.

The supercharger is belt driven, I can't foresee the timing chain breaking before a rubber V-belt.  And I was under the impression that the magneto is half speed, but the drive itself operates at the same speed of the the rest of the timing chest.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  ???

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 12:56:05 PM »
The drive for the magneto etc is taken from the inlet cam, which obviously runs at half engine speed, the only 'engine speed' bit is the timing sprocket on the end of the crank. Belt drive is a good plan.
 Another place to possibly pick up a drive, should you need even more speed for the blower, might be from the clutch drum sprocket [or pulley], as I assume you will not be using a standard R.E. type clutch in there  ;)
 B.W.

High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 02:03:42 PM »
The plan is to install a Bob Newby belt drive on this bike.  Is it possible to order the belt drive with an additional V pulley off on the crank?  I've had trouble trying to contact them, not sure if I have the wrong number or prefix or what.   ???

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 02:24:35 PM »
The plan is to install a Bob Newby belt drive on this bike.  Is it possible to order the belt drive with an additional V pulley off on the crank?  I've had trouble trying to contact them, not sure if I have the wrong number or prefix or what.   ???

Scottie

This is where you start seeing what I have to go thru trying to get things done.
Nobody makes anything we want, and nobody wants to make one-off things, unless they charge an arm and a leg, and takes a year.
I have to deal with this all the time.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 02:29:01 PM »
This is where you start seeing what I have to go thru trying to get things done.
Nobody makes anything we want, and nobody wants to make one-off things, unless they charge an arm and a leg, and takes a year.
I have to deal with this all the time.

Ate you not keen on the idea of this blower Tom?
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2014, 02:35:14 PM »
Ate you not keen on the idea of this blower Tom?

I have no problem with the blower. I think that a smaller version of the one that they used on the Roehr 1250 is a neater little package, but costs a lot more.

Personally, I avoid doing blowers. It's a big can of worms. I like N/A.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 04:41:26 PM »
I'm not too worried about mounting the blower, Alex and I are both really good with custom fabrication.  And if guys are bolting these blowers to Matchless and AJS bikes it can't be that hard.  Also this seems to be the blower of choice for the Salt guys.  Is using this blower as opposed to a turbo going to change anything on your end Tom?  I don't want to make your job difficult  but I do want to build some serious power and I feel that going with a blower we will be able to produce more power at lower RPMs.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance
Enfield Twin Full Race Heads

ace.cafe

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2014, 05:31:57 PM »
I'm not too worried about mounting the blower, Alex and I are both really good with custom fabrication.  And if guys are bolting these blowers to Matchless and AJS bikes it can't be that hard.  Also this seems to be the blower of choice for the Salt guys.  Is using this blower as opposed to a turbo going to change anything on your end Tom?  I don't want to make your job difficult  but I do want to build some serious power and I feel that going with a blower we will be able to produce more power at lower RPMs.

Scottie
It shouldn't make much difference to the head work.
If you have a real lot of boost like a top fuel dragster, then we'd use a bigger exhaust valve.  Basically, a good boosted head is a good n/a head

Your cam guy is gonna need to know about it, though. I think there should be some movement happening on your heads next week or so at Mondello's.
Home of the ACE Fireball 535 Bullet,  Ace GP Hi-Lift Roller Rocker Head . Pistons, cams, etc. Highest performance Bullet engine mods available .  AVL mods. Redditch 700/750 Twin mods. UCE kit soon.

Please visit my new website:
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High On Octane

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Re: Ace Cafe Is Assisting With Bulldog Customs TURBO Twin Bonneville Build!
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2014, 06:06:14 PM »
It shouldn't make much difference to the head work.
If you have a real lot of boost like a top fuel dragster, then we'd use a bigger exhaust valve.  Basically, a good boosted head is a good n/a head

Your cam guy is gonna need to know about it, though. I think there should be some movement happening on your heads next week or so at Mondello's.

That's what I figured but I just wanted to make sure.  I know you mentioned we are already at about max valve size so just go ahead and work your magic and do whatever you cab to make those babies breath.   :)  As far as cams I think I'm just going to use those Interceptor R cams we talked about on the phone.  I can give you the lobe profiles again if you need.

Scottie
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
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The Blackhawk
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Any news Tom?  ???
Bulldog Kustoms - Denver, CO
Specializing In Kustom Paint

The Blackhawk
1958 Enfield/Indian 711cc Twin

Building The 1st Ever Ace Performance
Enfield Twin Full Race Heads