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Author Topic: EPA votes down E15  (Read 2503 times)

Ducati Scotty

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EPA votes down E15
« on: November 21, 2013, 11:53:18 PM »
I heard today that the EPA voted against raising the ethanol level to 15% (E15) and is staying with E10 for now in the US.

Scott

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 11:54:56 PM »
A small Yea.  It would be a larger YEA! if they removed the alcohol altogether.
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 12:10:52 AM »
+1.  I appreciate the drive to limit or remove our dependence on foreign oil, but adding alcohol made from corn to our gas is not the way to do it.  Still, glad to hear it hasn't gotten worse, and there is a discussion going to remove it altogether.

Scott

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 12:34:00 AM »
I'm fortunate to have access to non-oxygenated (no ethanol) fuels here. Alky is good motor fuel - and it can be made from any plant matter that will ferment, which a good thing ...... but a man needs a fuel system that won't rot to pieces when he uses the stuff ......  :(
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dginfw

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 04:08:10 AM »
Other than the corn farmers and the EPA, is there anybody that actually likes the stuff?
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 04:44:40 AM »
Not me.
There is an ethanol plant here in town, often the effluent from the stack can smell up the town with corn mash.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Chatham,+Chatham-Kent,+ON&hl=en&ll=42.383053,-82.217045&spn=0.007497,0.016243&sll=49.303974,-84.738437&sspn=13.562389,33.266602&oq=chatham&hnear=Chatham-Kent,+Chatham-Kent+Division,+Ontario&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.383178,-82.221314&panoid=b_E-kapDVJ_WI6zTfkofIQ&cbp=12,1.19,,0,-6.53

That stack is pumping the steamy goodness 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. My house is less than a mile from it. When the sky is overcast and close, the town gets blanketed in the smelly goodness.

Oh, and here's a better corn related thing that we have here in town from the seed corn industry that you may not have seen before. Those piles are corn cobs. This picture is a bit dated, now there are 4 piles the size of the one on the right. This comes from the seed corn facilities nearby. The cobs are ground up (piles on the left) by a log chipper type machine and used for bedding and fuel to heat in the hundreds of huge greenhouses in Kingsville / Leamington Ontario. The seed corn industry has been affected by the corn contracts to grow for the ethanol plant to some extent. Much more care has to go into growing pure seed corn strains, such as planned cross pollinating with different strains to make specific strains of seed corn. The job of corn de-tasseling is usually the young teenager`s first job in life around here. Its hot sweaty work for 14+ teens going down the corn rows clipping off the top of the corn row, the tassel, to control which corn plant pollinates with which strain of corn and which  is the pollinator and the pollinee by gender of the strain.  Its quite costly for a farmer to get the corn to harvest. The contracts to grow seed corn do pay well, but your growth and maintenance costs of the crop are high. The contract payout for the ethanol plant corn is not as high by far, but your investment per acre is substantially less.   

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Chatham,+Chatham-Kent,+ON&hl=en&ll=42.36422,-82.239146&spn=0.015125,0.032487&sll=49.303974,-84.738437&sspn=13.562389,33.266602&oq=chatham&hnear=Chatham-Kent,+Chatham-Kent+Division,+Ontario&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.364159,-82.239219&panoid=A2zLIJVyPwXzKWDv3ry3-A&cbp=12,321.65,,1,3.09

Ok, that post was a bit off on a tangent....   sorry... its late o`clock and I`ll stop typing and go to bed.
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میں صرف اپنی موٹر سائیکل پر سوار کرنا چاہتے ہیں

gashousegorilla

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 05:18:53 AM »
  Some Dynamic Corn-presion here.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbVRW3qSXAo

 
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ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 11:37:23 AM »
Other than the corn farmers and the EPA, is there anybody that actually likes the stuff?

I do, dang UTT!! Yer supposed to make LIKKER from corn!!  ;)
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High On Octane

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 12:23:03 PM »
I don't know.  My friend tunes all of his performance cars to run on E85 and he produces some big numbers.  His '99 Impreza lays down 420 HP at the wheels running on corn, so.

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ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2013, 02:25:05 PM »
I don't know.  My friend tunes all of his performance cars to run on E85 and he produces some big numbers.  His '99 Impreza lays down 420 HP at the wheels running on corn, so.

Scottie

Most of the "E85" that I've tested is barely 35% ethanol. That being said - alky is a good motor fuel for producing big horsepower. It isn't nearly as energy dense as petro-fuels - BUT - because it has such  HUGE charge cooling effect, is hard to ignite and is oxygen bearing, you can run compression ratios upward of 14:1 - or if you are boosting the engine - 30 pounds of boost! High compression ratios mean thermodynamic efficiency. This is why the diesel engine, with its 25:1 compression is such a fuel sipper and torque bastard all at the same time. The PROBLEM with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic and it's corrosive as all get out to aluminum and ferrous metals - not to mention it'll dissolve every kind of rubber known to man except nitrile rubber. You can make GOBS of power with alky ..... but you better have a copper fuel tank and a brass carburettor like a Model T Ford ...... 
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High On Octane

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 02:55:04 PM »
Yeah Alex is running 24 psi of boost.  He also has a laptop and wide o2 sensor.

Scottie
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 03:07:30 PM »
I love ethyl alcohol!  But give it to me with a lime over ice. Or tuck it in a charred barrel for a few years first.  Since we use so much fossil fuel equipment in producing it from corn we are getting a minimal energy benefit. Find something else to make it from, a more efficient process, or pursue another alternative fuel.

Scott

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2013, 03:52:55 PM »
Gleaned this from Honda Brasil website...I was under the impression that everything was running sugar juice but in fact they still sell both gas and ethanol..You can buy a 1000 rr (gasolina) or this 150 cc flex burner...I found interesting the max power no...The torque no. give ethanol the edge (if i'm understanding it correctly)..On a final note, I notice at the gas pumps that ethanol prices are just about half of gasolina, which explains why most people purchase flex vehicles there...


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TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION DOWNLOADS


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gashousegorilla

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2013, 03:53:28 PM »
not to mention it'll dissolve every kind of rubber known to man except nitrile rubber.

   But, will it make it expand and contract ? ...Like in nitrile O rings  and float bowl gaskets.  Or is that some other additive in the "fuel".... Or Crap rubber ?  Just not right , to have to change out them O rings, on those cross over-tubes every couple years.  :-\   Your damned if you leave the fuel on, your damned if you don't....
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2013, 05:00:29 PM »
E-85 is generally about 10% cheaper here in the land of Corn and corn farmer welfare. When you think farmer though don't think of your great aunt and uncle Elmer and Mabel - think Cargill etc.

If you get about 30% less economy you do the math. I think grain based  ethanol is one if the greatest hoaxes ever pulled off on the public.

High On Octane

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 05:28:11 PM »
E85 is most certainly less efficient than standard petrol.  BUT it does work great in performance applications where you need something more stable than regular pump gas but is more easily accessible than race fuel.  But with any fuel and application it's all about the tuning.

Scottie
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 05:54:09 PM »
I've heard that after all the processing and accounting for the lower energy alcohol holds compared to gas, we get about a 20% better return on alcohol.  Then figure that gas is 10% alcohol, so 20% x 10% = 2%.  So I guess that's about how much less oil we use.  Not bad when you consider our nation's total oil bill but far from the holy grail that was promised.  I'm all for alcohol but A) find a more efficient way to make it and B) make sure everyone's vehicle can run on it, or provide regular gas as an available alternative.

Scott

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 06:18:06 PM »
  They SHOULD find something to do with these MOUNTAINS of leaves ,you see here in the northeast this time of year...... Seems like a waste.

http://bipublication.com/files/IJABRv2i3201107.pdf

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Ducati Scotty

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 06:20:58 PM »
Or use them as fuel to heat the corn mash in your still....

gashousegorilla

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 06:25:10 PM »
Or use them as fuel to heat the corn mash in your still....

  LMAO !...... No they burn up too damn quick. Hickory's more efficient so I hear.   Can't get away with that around here anyway...  :-\
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ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 07:05:05 PM »
Here is a very good read on the subject of ethanol fuels. Again - its a great motor fuel - and it would be a great way to get rid of many types of fermentable waste whilst leaving food crops alone .... except for the involvement of Big Bidniss. Read on .....

http://www.environmentalhistory.org/billkovarik/research/henry-ford-charles-kettering-and-the-fuel-of-the-future/
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 08:17:11 PM »
Hoo-rah for a decent decision! 

In town we have three places where one can get 90 octane ethanol-free gasoline.  My 'lil thumper likes the stuff, but can use the E10 if needed.

Besides, excess corn should be used to make more bourbon!   ;)
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Ducati Scotty

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 08:50:44 PM »
Just out of curiosity I took a peek for ethanol free gas, and there's a stations just a mile or two from my house :)

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 12:46:51 AM »
If you get about 30% less economy you do the math. I think grain based  ethanol is one if the greatest hoaxes ever pulled off on the public.

            It was a way to pay off large campaign contributors & keep them contributing. Also a way for our idiot government to convince other idiots that they were "doing something" about our "energy problem".

             Whatever the government does or takes over, it costs 10X the estimates & never solves the problem it was supposed to solve. And never goes away.

             We HAVE no energy policy; never have & never will.
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D the D

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 03:44:55 AM »
            It was a way to pay off large campaign contributors & keep them contributing. Also a way for our idiot government to convince other idiots that they were "doing something" about our "energy problem".

             Whatever the government does or takes over, it costs 10X the estimates & never solves the problem it was supposed to solve. And never goes away.

             We HAVE no energy policy; never have & never will.

+1  And it takes a truck running diesel to deliver.  Since our Congress under Mr. O dropped the incentives to run biodiesel that were implemented under Mr. Bush, Biodiesel is moving very slowly.  Yep, Libs: bought and sold on corn.
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t120rbullet

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 11:21:47 AM »
       

Whatever the government does or takes over, it costs 10X the estimates & never solves the problem it was supposed to solve. And never goes away.

And the same numbnuts are "taking charge" of our healthcare.

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GreenMachine

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 03:39:32 PM »
This isn't dead in the water...Just a pause in the debate..

E15 is a fuel blend of 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent gasoline that the EPA has approved for use in 2001-and-newer passenger vehicles but not for motorcycles, ATVs, boats, lawn mowers and other small engines. Ethanol is grain alcohol produced from crops such as corn that is mixed with gasoline to produce an ethanol-gasoline blend motor fuel.
"The bottom line," said Allard, "is that this decision certainly slows the unnecessary rush on bringing E15 fuels to market for at least the next year, but it doesn't address the central issue that real-world motorcyclists face, and that is that no motorcycle currently on the road is approved for E15 use, and the risk of inadvertent misfueling is tremendous once it is available at the pump.
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D the D

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 04:42:50 PM »
This isn't dead in the water...Just a pause in the debate..

E15 is a fuel blend of 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent gasoline that the EPA has approved for use in 2001-and-newer passenger vehicles but not for motorcycles, ATVs, boats, lawn mowers and other small engines. Ethanol is grain alcohol produced from crops such as corn that is mixed with gasoline to produce an ethanol-gasoline blend motor fuel.
"The bottom line," said Allard, "is that this decision certainly slows the unnecessary rush on bringing E15 fuels to market for at least the next year, but it doesn't address the central issue that real-world motorcyclists face, and that is that no motorcycle currently on the road is approved for E15 use, and the risk of inadvertent misfueling is tremendous once it is available at the pump.

Yes, not to mention that all the car manufacturers warn against using E15 in their regular engines because the fuel systems aren't designed for it.  How many people have an ECO, multifuel vehicle designed to run on E15?  Very few.
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Arizoni

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2013, 11:09:21 PM »
And that explains why the big auto makers are not lobbying against E85.

When E85 is about the only fuel that's easily obtainable most of the existing cars will be unusable.  The only "fix" will be to buy a new car that's made to run on the stuff.
A instant market for 150 million cars will be created. :(
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2013, 10:10:19 PM »
And a 150 million graveyard?

The horror...  :o
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2013, 12:02:48 AM »
I am not sure that it is a pause in the debate because here to now it's not a debate. It is a monologue from the government

ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2013, 11:47:24 AM »
I am not sure that it is a pause in the debate because here to now it's not a debate. It is a monologue from the government

I wouldn't say "it's the government" - I'd say it's a monologue from Cargill, Monsanto, Archer-Daniels-Midland and Bayer Crop Science. Those companies all but OWN the government - or at least the elected officials who can hoodwink the lesser educated public to vote for them. They buy their way into office on promises forgotten after the election.

Alky fuels make sense - they are cheap, renewable and make good engine power as well as a LOT less pollution. What doesn't make sense is using food crops to make the fuel. Alky fuels could be cooked right out of the waste stream of this country - or from nuisance weeds and plants that are mowed down along every stretch of road across the country - or from common lawn waste ...... but there are no obscene profits or markets to be cornered by doing that. It was Henry Ford's idea that all of his cars would run on alcohol fuels. It could be made at home, from basically trash - and the cars were tuned and built to run on it and make good power. Of course Big Oil "convinced" him that petro fuels would be SO much better (if he ever wanted to sell another Model T) - so here we are a hundred years later, STILL fighting "the money" to do the right thing ..... Go figger .......

Renewable fuels ARE the future of the piston engine as we know it. We already know that bio-diesel has a higher cetane rating than petro-diesel, is less toxic and has less tailpipe emissions and can be made nicely from hemp seed oils and switch grass - neither of which is a potential food source - yet we cling to petro fuels, hoping that somehow they'll be cheaper and not run out in our lifetime. Same goes for gasoline. Of course newer vehicles would have to be built to accommodate alky fuels - and petro fuels would still be in demand for years to come for older vehicles, but the cycle must be broken before ALL the petro fuels are gone - or $50 a gallon. The solution is simple and straightforward - and has little to do with the government. It has everything to do with using the resources that we have wisely and not succumbing to the influence of those who put profits ahead of common sense.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:29:07 PM by ScooterBob »
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Kevin Mahoney

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2013, 02:18:56 PM »
We may be splitting hairs over the use of language. I agree with you 100% especially about using food stocks and the money involved. I say it comes from the govt. because they are the ones writing the laws, regulations etc. To be sure the push (and money) comes from ADM etc. Without their money given to the politicians there would be no laws about this.

Are we still using mandatory bio-diesel in MN? I believe that push came from the Soy-Bean lobby. There were some initial problems that I believe got ironed out. Assuming it is still mandatory it runs fine in my truck even when it is -30.

gremlin

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2013, 11:22:48 AM »
Wow, another thread gone sour with jaded opinions......

Accept that market forces alone would be chaotic and inhibit the development of our national transportation system.

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High On Octane

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2013, 01:10:04 PM »
Wow, another thread gone sour with jaded opinions......

Accept that market forces alone would be chaotic and inhibit the development of our national transportation system.



Blame it on the Government and Big Oil.  It's all their fault anyways.
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2013, 08:20:02 PM »
I am not sure that it is a pause in the debate because here to now it's not a debate. It is a monologue from the government
[/quotea
a polite(politic) way to say "dictating" how it shall be?]
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Craig McClure

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2013, 06:14:57 PM »
Since everyone is voicing frustration over the Ironic  contradiction in terms when discussing the "Department of Energy", many other related departments are equally LAME.
  Were you aware of what would happen if there were an Electro-Magnetic Pulse event (big sunspot, nuclear attack, grid sabotage)??  Apparently our Department Of Energy & Homeland Security have done little to NOTHING to address this possible scenario. Without Electricity you couldn't buy Food, Gasoline or ANYTHING. No one thought to require the ability to manually pump gas, or mechanically add up figures for cash buying. Our moronic protectors haven't even put out a memo telling merchants to have a plan B ready, to avoid being looted.
  Us ex-Boy Scouts believe in "being Prepared", to bad the guys making the big bucks in Washington are to busy selling us down the river to be properly concerned.
                                     JUST MY HUMBLE 2 CENTS,  Craig
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gremlin

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2013, 06:24:23 PM »
I don't know about you Boy Scout, but, I've got a hardened, class 4, command center buried in my yard.  I'm ready for "the end times".
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D the D

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2013, 07:43:36 PM »
In the movies they just shoot the neighbors and take what they've got.
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mattsz

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2013, 08:03:02 PM »
Gremlin - that's awesome!  Who will you be commanding when Mad Max comes knocking on the hatch?

I can think of a few ways of getting gas out of the underground tanks in a pinch, none of which require electricity - I'm sure my local gas merchants will manage without the government telling them to.  As long as the supply holds out, anyway...  ;)

gremlin

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2013, 10:09:20 PM »
........Who will you be commanding when Mad Max comes knocking on the hatch?.........

Knowing my luck the knock will be from some a** in a suburban come to drag me back to work....
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The_Rigger

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 02:35:40 AM »
Oh, and here's a better corn related thing that we have here in town from the seed corn industry that you may not have seen before. Those piles are corn cobs.

Send 'em here! I use ground-up corn cobs as polishing media in my brass tumblers on my reloading bench.
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2013, 03:54:13 AM »
Send 'em here! I use ground-up corn cobs as polishing media in my brass tumblers on my reloading bench.

Me too! 
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ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2013, 06:51:20 AM »
Send 'em here! I use ground-up corn cobs as polishing media in my brass tumblers on my reloading bench.

Walnut shells work dandee as well ...... and it seems like those darn things NEVER wear out!
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

gashousegorilla

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2013, 01:38:01 AM »
I don't know about you Boy Scout, but, I've got a hardened, class 4, command center buried in my yard.  I'm ready for "the end times".

  Or a  superstorm..... Or even a Zombie apocalypse !  This might beat fighting in gas lines for two weeks without electricity, so you can get heat to the house.  NOT fun .  Of course, you might be fighting in line with the Beavers ?!  But..... Ummmmmmm....... Winter project ?

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6e3CprVTi8

  http://www.woodgas.net/files/FEMA_emergency_gassifer.pdf
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 02:43:22 AM »
Walnut shells work dandee as well ...... and it seems like those darn things NEVER wear out!

Ground walnut shells do a good job of cleaning, but leave a matte, almost bead-blasted finish, in my experience. If you really want your brass to sparkle and shine, you use corncob with 2-3 capfuls of brass polish worked into it.
-Dave
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Arizoni

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2013, 04:27:02 AM »
I never thought of using corncobs to polish my brass.



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High On Octane

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 04:45:10 AM »
  Or a  superstorm..... Or even a Zombie apocalypse !  This might beat fighting in gas lines for two weeks without electricity, so you can get heat to the house.  NOT fun .  Of course, you might be fighting in line with the Beavers ?!  But..... Ummmmmmm....... Winter project ?

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6e3CprVTi8

  http://www.woodgas.net/files/FEMA_emergency_gassifer.pdf

That is freaking awesome!  I downloaded the PDF immediately.   ;)

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ScooterBob

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2013, 01:13:33 PM »
Ground walnut shells do a good job of cleaning, but leave a matte, almost bead-blasted finish, in my experience. If you really want your brass to sparkle and shine, you use corncob with 2-3 capfuls of brass polish worked into it.

You're exactly right ...... most of the stuff that I polish, I do by hand ..... motor-sickle parts are a little easier to do that to than shootin' iron parts - which tend to be a bit smaller! That matte finish is, however, PERFECT for fasteners and the like - and stuff to be painted .....
Spare the pig iron - spoil the part!

Craig McClure

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2013, 02:57:12 PM »
I never thought of using corncobs to polish my brass.




THATS WHAT THE BRITISH CALLED AN ASSAULT WEAPON. Naughty Naughty!
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2013, 03:09:35 PM »
That is freaking awesome!  I downloaded the PDF immediately.   ;)

Scottie

Now to design the support bracketry ......  up high above the rear wheel of my B5 ?
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2013, 04:32:41 PM »
Now to design the support bracketry ......  up high above the rear wheel of my B5 ?

I was thinking of in the bed of 4 cylinder pick up.  ;)

Scottie
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2013, 05:30:20 PM »
God intended wood to power steam engines.  Oil was never a problem for Robert Fulton.  Oh, he lubed his engines animal fat and whale oil.  Bacon drippings smell way more better than whale oil and is legal too!  Yay Bacon!
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2013, 05:31:55 PM »
Now to design the support bracketry ......  up high above the rear wheel of my B5 ?



 
I was thinking of in the bed of 4 cylinder pick up.  ;)

Scottie



  I was thinking a duel purpose sidecar ?......  Where lunch could also be made? 

 http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7k4vq02xEo4/TRKZv5HBqKI/AAAAAAAABYs/mTjvYZH20IY/s640/wursteinheit.jpg


« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 05:41:42 PM by gashousegorilla »
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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2013, 05:44:43 PM »
Just drove in past the BBQ place down the street.  Between that aroma and the sausage side car pic, I'm hungry now.

Scott

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Re: EPA votes down E15
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2013, 11:42:47 PM »
Gotta love the Coat of Arms low on the nose.  ;D
Rather than have a homeless person for the holidays, I decided to stick with ham.